Since no one is good except God alone, I am learning that it is not helpful for me to see people as “good” and “bad”. Instead of good and bad people, Jesus saw people as repentant and unrepentant, those with faith and those without. I now am trying to see people and myself like this: am I acting out of genuine, repentant faith or out of my own selfish ambition? 
 

Is there a time to use deception to get God’s blessing? No.

Jesus said in John 4:24 (NIV) “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.” I am a Christian called by God to be truthful– to believe the truth, to speak the truth and to live truth (James 2:18-26). Jesus does instruct me to be shrewd as a snake and innocent as a dove (Matthew 10:16). But this does not excuse me to stray outside the truth. My faith and my actions must work together in the light of truth.

C.H. Spurgeon said, “If God does not save a man by truth he certainly will not save them by lies, and if the old gospel is not competent to work a revival, then we will do without the revival.”

Sarah Barry once said, “I hope it [UBF] can be a fellowship that can be used by God. I hope it to disappear if it becomes a fellowship that God cannot use.” (http://www.bonnubf.org/press0/)

This is when he was about to go on trial. He testifies about how he carried out his journey upon meeting Christ and that he has a clear conscious before God and man, which means that he believed he did the right thing.

Maybe Jacob and the other “blessed liars” of the Bible had a “clear conscious” before God as well?

Maybe their lies didn’t come from a place of pride, arrogance, fear, etc.

In military strategy, business, and team sports, deception is common. Like in basketball I could “fake” a pass, etc. I use forms of deception like this in some areas of my life but am I sinning? I know that I have a clear conscious when I play basketball and I “trick” others to a certain extent. Does God detest this behavior? Am I living in sin? I’m leaning towards a no.

I think what we actually SAY out loud, the words that come out of mouths, are actually irrelevant. It’s the “heart” that counts.

Some Pharisees in Jesus’ time would say all these nice prayers in the synagogues when in reality their hearts were only focusing on pleasing other people.

Rahab was obviously telling a fat lie to the Jericho soldiers, but her heart was God-fearing.

I think we can agree who was blessed out of the 2 examples.

just my thoughts

Joshua 2:4-6 is reporting:
4 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from.
5 At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don’t know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them.
6 (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.)

She said, they had already gone, but obviously they still were hidden on her roof.

That’s why I thought this was “shrewd”. The people were “under the table”, but the soldiers didn’t keep looking and missed the trap door.

Maybe I’m remembering this wrong…

Shrewd:
1. Characterized by keen awareness, sharp intelligence, and often a sense of the practical.
2. Disposed to artful and cunning practices; tricky.

I think that Rebekah acted deceitfully and taught Jacob to lie. Rahab lied but also acted shrewdly.

God himself acts shrewdly when dealing with the “crooked”: “25 To the faithful you show yourself faithful, to the blameless you show yourself blameless, 26 to the pure you show yourself pure, but to the crooked you show yourself shrewd.” — Psalms 18:25,26 (NIV)

And shrewdness combined with innocence is what Jesus commands: “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.” — Matthew 10:16 (NIV)

David – “C’mon, do you think that a good German like me would do such a thing? Yeah I have a whole family in my attic! Come on in and I’ll throw a party for all of us, haha.”

I look at lying broadly. To me, this quote is still lying. It is purposeful misleading. BTW – Spin is lying too.

Brian – yikes.

That said, I even if I am wrong, I think I would lie to a horrible evil person to save an innocent one. Would you?

But this kind of thinking just sounds too much like Islam for me to accept it. I don’t think as a Christian I can open a “loop hole” and say that lying to enemies of God or evil people is ok.

Here are some quotes about Islam and lying:

Muslims are “to associate with non-Muslims only for a very specific purpose, which is to lead the ‘infidel’ into the ‘House of Islam’, chattel slavery, or death. Lying is not only permitted to achieve this goal, but encouraged. The Muslim is in fact required to lie in order to change the host society into an Islamic nation and merge the old culture into one in which there is no religion but Allah’s [Q. 3:19].”

And:

“While lying against Allah and his lone prophet is punishable by hell-fire, lying to non-Muslims plays an important roll in the Sunnah of Muhammad found in many of the traditions. In later philosophical treatises on the relation of deceit and jihad, there are many examples of just how Muslims are to deal with ‘infidels’ and even how critics are to be dispensed with.”

(http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/toler/lying_sin.html)

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2011/05/fig-leaves-and-falsehoods

By the way, what ever happened to the statistics for the Most Commented Article? It really motivated to comment. Is someone trying to address my concupiscence to pride?

For instance, a German Christian who was hiding a Jewish family in his attic could say to the Nazi, “C’mon, do you think that a good German like me would do such a thing? Yeah I have a whole family in my attic! Come on in and I’ll throw a party for all of us, haha.” If he said such a thing it would not be a lie, but it might be effective to evade capture.

It is difficult to speak to things like your example about the Nazis, especially for someone like me who was never in that position, which clearly would be a difficult dilemma for any Christian. But let us suppose that those who were asked by the Nazis about whether they were hiding any Jews chose to remain silent? What would the consequences of have been? Would the Nazis have just given up and left them alone? Certainly not! In fact, the lie was not just to protect the Jews but also themselves from repercussions.

I think the same thing can safely be said of Rahab, knowing that if she was truthful that it would not only hurt the spies but herself. Again, the Bible is very clear that she was honored for her faith, not her lie.

Would I have done the same thing if I was in either of these situations? Most certainly, yes, I would have. Why? It is because I am as weak as the next man (or woman, in the case of Rahab) who needs Christ’s forgiveness. Yet, it is dilemmas like these that make walking with Jesus such a radical and sometimes difficult path to follow.

I think one important matter is WHO we lie to and WHY we are lying.

Are we lying to the enemies of God to help and serve those in need? Was it wrong to lie to the NAZI regime to save those who were going to be excommunicated, beaten, starved, and eventually lose their lives? Was it wrong for Rahab to lie to those standing in the way of God’s Holy Work because she knew God was doing something much bigger? Certainly not. None of these were wrong because these were people who were either evil with evil intent to harm the less powerful or they were a roadblock in a greater work of God.

Or are we lying to God’s servants to make our will happen – even though it seems in line with God’s will (Rebekah)? Or are we lying to Co-workers in Christ about what we have done in the past because we think they will think one thing or another or because we will lose credibility with them? Or, are we lying to young Christians because they cannot handle the truth of what we or others have done or are doing in the ministry or because some people in the ministry have other views or opinions we want to “shelter” them from? In my opinion – none of these are justified, ever. It only makes church a place of non-human humans. People who project images of themselves and of the work of God. People who cannot just be who they truly are, live with their own mistakes, and celebrate the glory and grace of God to make them new people. Lying to Christian leaders, coworkers, or young Christians, in the long term, will do serious damage to others and to the work of God in that ministry.

In short – the WHO and the WHY matter. And in that, lying, I think, can seldom be justified.

“GO CANUCKS!”

Compare the Korean values to the American values, for instance…

“American Society and Culture

Diversity

America is ultimately a nation of immigrants and as a result is a cultural mish-mash in every sense of the word. Not only is the country populated by people from foreign countries but all Americans in one way or another trace their ancestry back to another culture, whether Irish, German, Italian or Scottish. Looking around any major city one will notice the ‘melting-pot’ that it is.

Informal and Friendly

Most people who come to the United States may already know a few things about the people through TV. Although this is of course a skewed reality some of the stereotypes are true, especially American friendliness and informality. People tend to not wait to be introduced, will begin to speak with strangers as they stand in a queue, sit next to each other at an event, etc. Visitors can often be surprised when people are so informal to the point of being very direct or even rude.

Time is Money

The country that coined the phrase obviously lives the phrase. In America, time is a very important commodity. People ‘save’ time and ‘spend’ time as if it were money in the bank. Americans ascribe personality characteristics and values based on how people use time. For example, people who are on-time are considered to be good people, reliable people who others can count on.

The Family

The family unit is generally considered the nuclear family, and is typically small (with exceptions among certain ethnic groups). Extended family relatives live in their own homes, often at great distances from their children.

Individualism is prized, and this is reflected in the family unit. People are proud of their individual accomplishments, initiative and success, and may, or may not, share those sources of pride with their elders.”

I’d love to see some key aspect of many cultures documented like this, for Russians, Mexicans, Americans, Canadians, etc.

http://www.kwintessential.co.uk/resources/global-etiquette/south-korea-country-profile.html

“The Concept of Kibun

. Kibun is a word with no literal English translation; the closest terms are pride, face, mood, feelings, or state of mind.
. If you hurt someone’s kibun you hurt their pride, cause them to lose dignity, and lose face. Korean interpersonal relationships operate on the principle of harmony.
. It is important to maintain a peaceful, comfortable atmosphere at all times, even if it means telling a “white lie”.
. Kibun enters into every facet of Korean life.
. It is important to know how to judge the state of someone else’s kibun, how to avoid hurting it, and how to keep your own kibun at the same time.
. In business, a manager’s kibun is damaged if his subordinates do not show proper respect. A subordinate’s kibun is damaged if his manager criticizes him in public.
. Nunchi is the ability to determine another person’s kibun by using the eye.
. Since this is a culture where social harmony is crucial, being able to judge another person’s state of mind is critical to maintain the person’s kibun.
. Nunchi is accomplished by watching body language and listening to the tone of voice as well as what is said.”

So if I were to ask a child: “Two women lied to get something good. Which one is God happy with?” A child would say that God was happy with neither one.

It is clear to me that neither God nor the Bible approves of lying or deceit.

It is also clear that God and the Bible considered Rahab as righteous for her act of hiding the spies. The reason cannot be because God approves of lying or needs deception from His people to accomplish the saving of lives. There must be another reason.

So a key question for me is: Why does James say Rahab was righteous for her act of sending the spies off in an opposite direction, and why does Hebrews commend Rahab as having faith when she welcomed the spies?

“24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.” James 2:24-26 (NIV)

And:

“31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.” Hebrews 11:31 (NIV)

But their sinful behaviour did not hinder God’s plan. PLUS he did not give up his hope for his chosen one.

And I believe children should learn that lying is bad, and trusting God to put things right and people in the right places is good.

Now I see several major problems teaching this passage in this way, as brought up by Wesley and by other Bible commentaries as well.

I justified that God informed Rebekah of his choice of Jacob. But that does not give Rebekah the license to use deceptive means to achieve the desired result. Also, man’s heart is deceitful (Jer 17;9), including Rebekah’s and us. Rebekah herself favored Jacob.

God told David that he would be the next king. But David did not use his own power to rid himself of Saul. So, this cancels the justification of Rebekah’s deception in the previous paragraph.

Most damagingly of all, it puts the major emphasis on man to get it right, before God can fulfill his will. This is of course ludicrous. God will always fulfill his will, with or without our participation.

Even if Rebekah was well intentioned, it still doesn’t justify deception. It can easily lead to all kinds of practical application that is not biblically grounded.

I remember once justifying driving over 90 mph on Lake Shore Drive because I had to bring something to church urgently. I was so proud that I did so for the glory of God!