Comments on: Community (Life Together, Dietrich Bonhoeffer)

By: Ben Toh

Ben Toh — Wed, 25 Jul 2012 21:41:30 +0000

Thanks, Chris, Joseph, Jerson. Leadership is one of my top 5 favorite topics as a Christian, perhaps because it is so poorly practiced by sinful leaders, who do not want or wish to be critiqued or be truly accountable. I do not judge or condemn the sinful leader, for I am both a sinful member and a sinful leader of UBF.

Yes, I would say accountability, self-criticism, and listening to critiques from others is key for leadership to remain relevant and in touch with the broader community in and outside the church.

I have always strongly encouraged our men at West Loop UBF based on Heb 3:13, so that they will hold me accountable to them. I post on UBFriends publicly so that anyone can call me out for the errors of my ways and thoughts and writings.

By: Chris

Chris — Wed, 25 Jul 2012 08:58:30 +0000

Jerson, your point that a leader should no his limitations is a very important one. A church should clearly define and know the realm of authoritiy of their leaders. For instance, I don’t believe a leader should act as a trainer or personal shepherd. A leader should not be a single person, but there should be a plurality of elder who are leading together and controlling and advising each other. And these leaders should be elected by and fully accountable to the church members. In the German Bible, I do not even find the word leader (“Leiter”) in any positive context. In the NIV, I don’t find many mentions of leaders either (we already discussed Hebr 13), but I find the warning “So then, no more boasting about human leaders!”

By: jerson rosario

jerson rosario — Wed, 25 Jul 2012 03:02:44 +0000

thanks joseph.
ya your right, we should not put the blame on any person/s because as much as possible we should bear one another. thats why we are living in one community,
but what i am trying to driving out is that. we cannot escape the fact that. in one community there is someone who act as a leader,whose trying to control the situations w/c is good. because we should maintain the peace and order. but as a leader you should know your limitations thats why we should always be reminded that Jesus is the real leader.. thank you..

By: Joseph R

Joseph R — Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:49:57 +0000

‘community…it is the relationship on how we live w/ God’

thanks jerson. community is not just how I or you live with God but it is how WE live with God. As to the ‘what’ hinders it: as much as I want to, I cannot put the blame on any person(s), because ultimately we are not against this or that person. Rather, I put the blame on the Father of sin (Ephesians 6:12). He insinuates (negatively spreads himself in) people’s minds and try to turn their path either left or right or as Dr. Ben’s words, ‘every direction but heavenward’.

God is the center of the community, think it and know it. I teach about the Bible and still forget, at many times, that God is the center of everything including community.

By: jerson rosario

jerson rosario — Tue, 24 Jul 2012 01:06:23 +0000

Most people seldom talk or write about a good community because it seems too abstract. Community is often viewed as a location, a set of services, or a complex of buildings. Few authors tackle the more complicated version of the community, that is, what makes it a good place to live. So for me community is not just about a place or an environment..but it is the relationship on how we live w/ God.

Having a God centered community is very important. In that way we can encourage one another and express how God is working in our life.

But there is a question: What/who hinders it?

Having a good community will not be effective if there is someone who thinks or who acts as if he is the creator of that community.. who is trying to control the situations inside the community..as if his dream binds men together.

In conclusion, we should be a God centered community. We should always think that, God is the only one who can control the situation in the community no matter what happens. So I want to thank GOD for allowing me to be a part of Philippines UBF community, who is mainly centered in God.

By: Ben Toh

Ben Toh — Wed, 27 Jun 2012 23:06:01 +0000

Thanks, Joseph, Brian. That’s why we need community, accountability, friendship, fellowship, “koinonia.”

For instance, I know that I personally need to listen more, which practically means “just shut up!” (James 1:19) But when a friend tells me this, which I already know, I am reminded more strongly and powerfully about what the Word says. Thus my own heart is weaker than the Christ in the words of my brother. God can even use the mouth of an “ass” to speak his word to us (Num 22:30).

By: Brian Karcher

Brian Karcher — Wed, 27 Jun 2012 15:35:52 +0000

Joseph, I would say we need to look at the larger quote of what Bonhoeffer wrote: “When one person is struck by the Word, he speaks it to others. God has willed that we should seek and find His living Word in the witness of a brother, in the mouth of man. Therefore, the Christian needs another Christian who speaks God’s Word to him. The Christ in his own heart is weaker than the Christ in the word of his brother; his own heart is uncertain, his brother’s is sure.”

If we have an idea or teaching or understanding about something, we all need brothers and sisters who can be “sounding boards”, correcting and discussing life and Scripture. Those who rely only on their “personal revelation” are far weaker (and usually wrong) than those who have the insight and rebuke of others. That is one reason why we should never be people of flattery or multiply “kisses”, but speak boldly with gentleness and firmness.

By: Joseph R

Joseph R — Wed, 27 Jun 2012 05:51:56 +0000

“The Christ in his own heart is weaker than the Christ in the word of his brother; his own heart is uncertain, his brother’s is sure”

This is not clicking. How could your brother be certain if the only certain one is Christ?

By: Ben Toh

Ben Toh — Wed, 13 Jun 2012 20:26:03 +0000

That’s interesting Brian. I guess I can never imagine teaching the community-in-Christ diagrams as a way to guilt-trip people into staying in UBF. It is sad if anyone does teach it that way.

The diagrams themselves point to the utmost importance of centrality in Christ and away from anthropocentricity and human coercion.

Looks like you may have heard it taught something like this: http://marymagdalen.blogspot.com/2011/08/coercion.html

By: Brian Karcher

Brian Karcher — Wed, 13 Jun 2012 15:09:28 +0000

Thanks for sharing this Ben. I think UBF directors should learn from what you’re doing in Westloop.

By the way, I heard the teaching of that slide many times during my time in UBF (and even remember seeing a diagram almost like that). I think you understand the meaning correctly, however that teaching was used to guilt-trip people into staying in UBF and demanding higher levels of conformance to UBF ideology. Instead of giving life and freedom, the teaching that we draw close to Christ on the cross was used to teach me that I could never leave UBF. Gathering around the cross was even used to teach us that we should focus on God only and ignore our neighbors.

By: Ben Toh

Ben Toh — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 23:45:16 +0000

Sara Lee of Toronto UBF graciously shared with me her powerpoint slides, which is her visual and creative explanation of Life Together. She prepared this for John Armstrong’s ACT 3 cohort class on June 2, 2012.

Check out my 7 min explanation of Sara’s great slides: http://westloop-church.org/media-center/video/cohort-invitation-life-together

By: Ben T

Ben T — Thu, 17 May 2012 01:21:00 +0000

John Frame on the importance of fellowship/community (from Salvation is from the Lord):

“Without God’s grace, we are lost. And we need God’s grace not only at the beginning of the Christian life but throughout. So, naturally we ask, where can we go to find God’s continuing grace to us? Where do we go to get the resources for sanctification, for continuing spiritual growth? The short answer is that there are three places: the Word, fellowship, and prayer.
Except for the second, we can find those resources either privately or publicly. The second, fellowship, is by definition public. But we can receive the Word either by individual Bible study or through the public preaching and teaching of the church. And we can pray, of course, either privately or publicly. In our private use of the means of grace, we come to God as members of the church, the body of Christ. Apart from Christ, our Bible study and prayer will not help us. Indeed, we need other members of the church to help us understand the Bible and to teach us how to pray. So, in an important sense, even the private means of grace are within the church. . . .
It is not typical in Reformed theology to regard fellowship as a means of grace. But I think it clearly is. Remember all the passages . . . on one-anothering? Those make it plain that our spiritual health depends on one another — both what other believers do for us and what we do for them. The larger concept that includes all those one-anotherings is the concept of fellowship.”

By: Ben Toh

Ben Toh — Tue, 08 May 2012 23:40:43 +0000

Hi Chris, I’ve been wanting to see the Great Dictator, but never got around to it. Maybe after I see the Avengers!

This is a great/funny quote from Frank Viola which addresses the enemy of community:

“Sectarianism, elitism, and exclusiveness are like body odor. Everyone else can smell it except those who have it. One of the hallmarks of Jesus’ character is His radical inclusivity. When Jesus walked this earth, He despised the spirit of separatism, elitism, and self-righteousness (Mark 9:38-40).”

By: Chris

Chris — Tue, 08 May 2012 17:05:49 +0000

This is the final scene from the movie “The Great Dictator” in which Charlie Chaplin plays both Hitler and a poor Jew who happen to look the same. Here, the one talking is in reality the Jew. Hitler spoke much differently in the movie. Still not as horrible as the real Hitler. The movie is really worth seeing.

By: Ben Toh

Ben Toh — Tue, 08 May 2012 16:31:21 +0000

Oops, I meant “Cost of Discipleship” not Bonhoeffer.

By: Ben Toh

Ben Toh — Tue, 08 May 2012 16:30:33 +0000

Yeah, I would think that a classics like Life Together and Bonhoeffer would most certainly be translated to most major languages of the world. A friend just sent me a video of Charlie Chaplin dressed up like Hitler delivering an inspiring and moving speech: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WibmcsEGLKo I can't imagine Hitler coming across as being so humanitrian. Passionate, yes, but not humanitarian.

By: Timothy Ha

Timothy Ha — Tue, 08 May 2012 16:14:08 +0000

Thank you, Ben, too. I’ll save the links for using them later. As for now I will complete the book first. I also bought “Life Together” not knowing it’s translated to Russian already. Since I don’t know German, it would be fine to read him in Russian, too :-)
And “Discipleship” is also available in Russian. (For my Russian friends, the books are online at reformed.org.ua).

By: Ben Toh

Ben Toh — Tue, 08 May 2012 16:07:22 +0000

Thanks, Timothy. I think I will start reading it then, since I am already reading Life Together. Not sure if you’re interested, but here is Frank Viola blogging on Bonhoeffer: http://frankviola.org/2011/02/22/blogging-through-bonhoeffer/

It’s also interesting that Viola considers this one of the most profound and helpful things that Bonhoeffer ever wrote:http://frankviola.org/2012/05/03/wishdream/#more-8706

By: Timothy Ha

Timothy Ha — Tue, 08 May 2012 15:40:08 +0000

@Ben,
You wrote, “Mother Barry gave me the Bonhoeffer book by Metaxas, which I haven’t read. I prefer reading (boring) theology than (rich) stories!” – here you are wrong. The book is well blended with Bonhoeffer’s theology :-)

Please start it and you will lose months like me. I am still at about 30% of it :-)

By: Ben Toh

Ben Toh — Tue, 08 May 2012 15:23:16 +0000

Mother Barry gave me the Bonhoeffer book by Metaxas, which I haven’t read. I prefer reading (boring) theology than (rich) stories!

Hitler or any charismatic leader is able to gain power because man has the power of influence (and deception), and people, instead of living by the truth, seek an easy peace, forced unity, and false security. Sorry fo my over-simplistic over-generalization.

By: Ben Toh

Ben Toh — Tue, 08 May 2012 15:17:33 +0000

Thanks so much for sharing, Chris. Though it might be hard for some to hear the analogy between Hitler and UBF, I’d have to say that there are certainly truths to your analogy. I believe that problems and issues are increasingly being addressed, and changes will be forthcoming, albeit quite slowly.

For one, I believe that we need to hear from people like you and Brian and others, who have been with UBF for decades. I pray that this will happen. Reconciliation is key, crucial, fundamental and foundational to Christianity as our witness to the world.

By: Chris

Chris — Fri, 04 May 2012 12:45:54 +0000

Since my childhood I could never understand how Hitler could come to power, and even today it’s difficult for me to understand, even though I read and thought much about this problem. It somehow looks like Hitler sold his soul to the devil who gave him incredible supernatural power of people for a few years in return. But I fear the whole story just shows how easily people can be manipulated, and how deeply corrupt human nature is. I think Brian’s explanatations are good. People saw only the “good” sides and the “vision” the new regime was promising. Also, they only had one-sided propaganda information. The propaganda machine of Goebbels was incdredible. The people just didn’t want to see the bad sides and ignored all the bad smell and alerting signals.
Here I see some parallels in how people in UBF do not want to speak up about the grievances in UBF because they only want to see the good side, because they didn’t experience the bad things on their own, and do not want to even hear the negative examples, much less investigate on their own if things do not fit in their world view.
Another parallel is the way these Germans believed in a “German spirit”, a special spirit inherent in the movement, somehow blessed by God or by “fate” or other supernatural forces. The Heidelberg university had the slogan “Dem lebendigen Geist” (to the living spirit) written on their main building, which the Nazis change to “Dem Deutschen Geist” (to the German spirit). In a similar way, UBF people tend to believe in a “UBF spirit”. I think it’s very dangerous to believe in such kinds of “spirits”. The Holy Spirit is the only spirit we need.
Also, you have to understand that the time when people could make an active choice was very short. The “Machtergreifung” (seizure of power) happened already in 1933, from there on Hitler ruled with force and terror.
Anyway, many people just blindly obeyed and believed they had no responsiblity in anything because they had no choice as to obey, and obedience had a positive connotation at that time. As a German, I could never understand how UBF tried to sell “absolute obedience” to me as a desirable virtue.
We can also see that a lot of bad things happen if you believe your ideology, religion, race, nationality etc. is somehow “better” than others, and you are not tolerant and embrace and try to understand all human beings on this earth. Still, there are many people in many countries who believe nationalism is something good. They love their own country, which is good, but they don’t love the other people in other countries as much as their own, which I think we should do, according to the teachings of Jesus and the Bible (love your neighbor as yourself – I think these two words “as yourself” make all the difference).

By: David Bychkov

David Bychkov — Fri, 04 May 2012 07:53:49 +0000

Hitler, and that period in Germany are really interesting for me. I watched few movies, read something etc. And I fully agree with Brian, that in that context he sounded very noble. he was real visionary. Some of his speaches shaked some of my convictions. once I listen how he aks his soldars – that they have “just obey” their leaders and ideology, and they will win.

By: Timothy Ha

Timothy Ha — Fri, 04 May 2012 06:40:29 +0000

@Brian
I haven’t studied the history of the period enough to know, but as I read the biography of Bonhoeffer (the one by Eric Metaxas, http://amzn.to/bonhoefferbook) I am still confused how Hitler could get to power like that.
Strong deception has strength with a weak and liberal church, which lacks discerning and prophetic voices?
It’s scary to think of Russia or the world as having a possibility to become what Germany became about a century ago. So we will still need many Bonhoeffers. Or one, but with Internet helping to spread the message. :-)

By: Brian Karcher

Brian Karcher — Thu, 03 May 2012 23:27:13 +0000

This video explains more of what I mean. Even great British leaders were impressed with Hitler. They celebrated great German culture, promised great things, demonstrated giving jobs to the people, and even how Hitler got rid of the "bad" Communists. But of course there were secrets and deceptions along the way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAmKGzYyVLI&feature=related

By: Brian Karcher

Brian Karcher — Thu, 03 May 2012 23:15:17 +0000

Ben,

This video is only scary to us, only because we are seeing it in black and white, with ominous music in the background, and because we know the end result.

However, let’s go back in time. The world was never black and white, but always in full-blown, marvelous color! Imagine you were a young college student in Germany in the 1930’s. You are upset and angry over how your country was treated for WWI, blamed for things you felt were not fair. Imagine hearing a noble dream, an offer for an honorable society! Imagine the church leaders seemed to support (or at least did not criticize) such a leader.

And remember, that Germany was one of the most highly educated countries at the time (maybe the most educated?). We see Hitler and Nazism for what it ended up being, but from young, college-educated people’s viewpoint looking forward, Hitler offered an honorable, noble, God-blessed future! And he had so much good-sounding speeches, beautiful artwork, and last but not least: power.

Perhaps I’m over-stepping my history lesson here… Chris or anyone, please correct me if I’ve said something incorrectly. From what I’ve studied about this astounding period, I fully understand how and why Hitler could rise to power, as well as his predictable downfall.

By: Ben Toh

Ben Toh — Thu, 03 May 2012 15:31:08 +0000

Scary video, Brian. How easy it is to motivate others by cultural superiority, racism, imperialism, nationalism. Only the true gospel can break our ever present sinful inclination to endorse these …isms, which are all idolatries at the deepest level.

By: Ben Toh

Ben Toh — Thu, 03 May 2012 15:22:26 +0000

Thanks, David. We acknowledge that lust, pornography, worldliness, etc, is a sin. But I think that it seems to be much harder (for me at least) to realize that idealism, good intentions, and “visionary dreaming” can be just as great a sin and idolatry.

By: Ben Toh

Ben Toh — Thu, 03 May 2012 15:18:40 +0000

Thanks, Chris. Just reading chapter 1 feels like being a deer in the night staring at headlights. It is so easy to mess up Christian community because of our sins! Worse yet, would be to not be able to see it or realize it…because of our sins.

By: Brian Karcher

Brian Karcher — Thu, 03 May 2012 12:39:02 +0000

Thanks for sharing Ben. I am so looking forward to reading this, as well as someday joining a cohort! I have drawn much strength from examples like Bonhoeffer, who correctly understood the danger in National Socialism when others praised it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-hS_90axHg

By: David Bychkov

David Bychkov — Thu, 03 May 2012 09:43:21 +0000

Thanks for sharing, Ben. For quite a few years I was wondering why everything was not going in the way I expected while I did all the right things (which I was taught). And now I am so happy that God was merciful to me to help me overcome those visionary dreaming. Well it was to be shattered at all.

By: Chris

Chris — Thu, 03 May 2012 07:29:59 +0000

Thank you for reminding me. When I was in UBF, my mother once sent me a letter with a copy of a page from that book, where she had the last passage you quoted underlined. Unfortunately, at that time I was so convinced that UBF was different from everything that Bonhoeffer could have seen in his life, that it didn’t cause me to stop and think – it was only years later that I understood how right that passage had been.