Comments for priestly>nation http://www.priestlynation.com my journey of recovery from University Bible Fellowship Tue, 29 Mar 2016 16:34:31 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.6.1 Comment on WHO? by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/who-am-i/#comment-6107 Tue, 29 Mar 2016 16:34:31 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?page_id=2439#comment-6107 Update for 2016. UBF remains unwilling to address the issues called out here.

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Comment on God Curses Samuel Lee Worship by Ronwad Thicke http://www.priestlynation.com/god-curses-samuel-lee-worship/#comment-6104 Mon, 22 Dec 2014 19:54:24 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2714#comment-6104 Continued yearly vigils at Samuel Lee’s grave and hacking Sony to keep Dear Leader, Jr. Jr. from being “insulted” — No one does cults quite like the Koreans do. Before anyone cries racism, I’m Asian.

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Comment on Open Letter to UBF General Director by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/open-letter-to-ubf/#comment-6103 Fri, 15 Aug 2014 15:00:08 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=1799#comment-6103 It is easy Ben, since I am writing my 3rd book about my journey of recovery from ubf heritage and lifestyle. I’m nearing the completion of that 3rd book, btw. Plus, what else would you expect from me, being the #1 vocal critic of ubf?

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Comment on Open Letter to UBF General Director by BenToh http://www.priestlynation.com/open-letter-to-ubf/#comment-6102 Fri, 15 Aug 2014 14:33:46 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=1799#comment-6102 Brian, your various stats, including ubf’s money stats over the years, are truly quite interesting and fascinating, especially for a longstanding ubfer like myself (34 years and counting)! How do you even remember to keep track of them, amidst all the busyness and complexities of life?

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Comment on Open Letter to UBF General Director by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/open-letter-to-ubf/#comment-6101 Mon, 28 Jul 2014 16:53:08 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=1799#comment-6101 ubf people love numbers. But they don’t usually understand that numbers are results, and that numbers follow what you do; numbers do not lead you.

So here are some updates on numbers that followed this open letter. In the one and a half years since publishing this open letter, here are how the numbers fell:

On my priestlynation.com blog:
— 220 articles grew to 306, an increase of 39%
— 503 comments grew to 591, an increase of 18%

The discussions have moved to ubfriends.org:
–206 articles is now 471, an increase of 129%
–4,680 comments is now 14,520, an increase of 210%

The numbers that followed my open letter tell the storyline of “significant online discussions” regarding the unhealthy ubf movement.

Never underestimate what one guy with a blog can do!

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Comment on UBF Worships Founder At Graveyard by Ronwad Thicke http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-worships-founder-at-graveyard/#comment-6100 Sun, 08 Dec 2013 17:17:46 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2342#comment-6100 “On an appointed day Herod put on his royal robes, took his seat upon the throne, and delivered an oration to them. And the people were shouting, ‘The voice of a god, and not of a man!’ Immediately an angel of the Lord struck him down, because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and breathed his last.”

(Acts 12:21-23, ESV)

There’s a lesson there for both leaders and the lead. Based on recent events (memorial service and museum), it seems to me that neither UBF’s leaders nor their sheep have learned this lesson.

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Comment on UBF Builds Museum in Korea by Ronwad Thicke http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-builds-museum-in-korea/#comment-6099 Wed, 04 Dec 2013 22:18:40 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2368#comment-6099 I wrote: “Where’s the Campus Crusade Museum? Where’s the Youth for Christ Museum?”

Sorry, there’s a typo. I meant “Youth with a Mission Museum”, not “Youth for Christ Museum.” And no, there isn’t a Youth with a Mission Museum either. Both CCC and YWAM have been flagged in the past as having some authoritarian and controlling tendencies, not to the level that UBF has been flagged, but still… Yet, they don’t have this self-congratulating culture that builds a museum as a memorial to themselves.

BTW, guess who else has a museum.

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Comment on UBF Builds Museum in Korea by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-builds-museum-in-korea/#comment-6098 Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:21:50 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2368#comment-6098 Hi twix,

You mentioned above ““I apologize for the hurt that our ministry has caused you”

You cannot apologize for what you did not do. But you can apologize for what you just did here on my blog. Would you apologize for saying that I am doing Satan’s work? I would appreciate that kind of apology.

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Comment on UBF Builds Museum in Korea by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-builds-museum-in-korea/#comment-6097 Tue, 03 Dec 2013 01:47:44 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2368#comment-6097 “I apologize for the hurt that our ministry has caused you”
>> I have heard hundreds of sorrowful apologies… I do NOT want any more apologies. I speak on behalf of the Korean reformers of 1976, on behalf of my late friend James Kim who tried to reform ubf ideology in 1989, on behalf of the Abraham of Faith in the USA and his family and numerous American families who left Toledo ubf between 1989 and 2001, and on behalf of the 8 families who left Toledo ubf and all the members of ubf who left the ministry in 2011 until now, 2013. I do not want human sorrow, I seek godly sorrow. I long to see the evidence of godly sorrow in ubf people which by the way PRECEEDS repentance. And I also speak on behalf of my friend Andrew and all the families who have been sacrificed on the altar of ubf because of false theology from Genesis and other passages (note: Abraham did NOT sacrifice his son Isaac!) The Holy Spirit gave me “one word” for ubf people: STOP! Stop and pay attention to the reality around you. Stop the nostalgic Stokholm-syndrom-like defenses of ubf.

“I don’t think you would have spent 24 years in this ministry if everything you were experiencing was wrong.”
>> Then you have completely misunderstood me. Yes there were good things that happened in those decades. And yes my arranged marriage is still valid. But would you eat soup with even one fly in it? No, you throw out the soup. ubf heritage needs to be thrown out because it is like “Lord of the flies”. You likely were sheltered from all this as a precious second-gen.

>> Bonhoeffer describes what happened to us in ubf, and why ubf ministries collapse every few years. This goes way beyond Korean cultural issues:

“a community that cannot bear and cannot survive such disillusionment, clinging instead to its idealized image, when that should be done away with, loses at the same time the promise of a durable Christian community. Sooner or later it is bound to collapse. Every human idealized image that is brought into the Christian community is a hindrance to genuine community and must be broken up so that genuine community can survive. Those who love their dream of a Christian community more than the Christian community itself become destroyers of that Christian community even though their personal intentions may be ever so honest, earnest, and sacrificial.”
(Dietrich Bonhoeffer , Life Together and Prayerbook of the Bible, Page 35

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Comment on UBF Builds Museum in Korea by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-builds-museum-in-korea/#comment-6096 Tue, 03 Dec 2013 01:17:23 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2368#comment-6096 Hi twix (by the way I know who you are and who you married, but I won’t expose your identity here because exposing you would not be the Christ-like thing to do. I know how much you risk just by commenting here, and I’m glad to have this dialogue.)

However, I do want to respond to some of your words.

“Where is a magnificent UBF center building in Korea?”
>> I have been in Seoul. I visited several ubf “center” buildings. My first reaction was that they were magnificent. Also as I indicated above, I heard (or read) Samuel Lee say the buildings were “magnificent” and then he rebuked the Korean directors for losing “manger spirit”. But as ronwad just mentioned, perhaps this was just Lee’s typical theatrics.

“I did not mean to call you Satan”
>> Well then you probably should not say what you don’t mean. I have a difficult time respecting people don’t say what they mean and mean what they say.

“I spent my 27 years in UBF growing up in this ministry and I have not experienced an abusive leader.” …”Yes, my parents had sacrified our family for the ministry,”

>> You are a Korean second gen obviously. Do you realize how good you have things in ubf? Do you realize the blood and sweat and tears of Amiercans, Germans, Russians, Mexcians, Chinese, etc. that were shed for you to have such a good life in ubf? ubf was built on our backs and then we were discarded as if we were dung. Your Korean parents and Korean missionaries in ubf have NO intention of passing on the ubf heritage to any “native” leader. The ubf ministry belongs only to Koreans and to Korean second gens. The 50th Anniversary Blue Book says that, so did the Lee memorial service lecture this year, and so did the new ubf history dedication announcement.

>> Do you care about what happened in Toledo ubf? What about India ubf? What about Detroit ubf? What about Kiev ubf? What about Taiwan ubf? What about Kentucky ubf? What about Yekaterinburg ubf? You have things so good, but do you care that ubf offering dropped almost 30% from 2008 to 2012? Do you care that ubf attendance dropped by 17% from 2008 to 2012? Or do you think I’m just lying? Or maybe my blogs caused all of this because I’m so evil?

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Comment on UBF Builds Museum in Korea by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-builds-museum-in-korea/#comment-6095 Tue, 03 Dec 2013 01:02:44 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2368#comment-6095 Hi Ronwad:

I think you are probably correct: “This was likely theatrics on Lee’s part”.

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Comment on UBF Builds Museum in Korea by Ronwad Thicke http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-builds-museum-in-korea/#comment-6094 Tue, 03 Dec 2013 00:45:59 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2368#comment-6094 The issue is self-glorification. Self-glorification is ugly wherever we find it and see it. It’s especially ugly when you find it among alleged Christians.

Does anyone see a Luther museum as a glorification of Lutheranism? No.

Does anyone see the graves of early foreign missionaries in Korea as someone’s attempt at self-glorification? No.

Is the Crystal Cathedral obscenely self-glorifying. Yes! There’s nothing uglier to me than self-glorification by alleged Christians.

A UBF Museum!? That’s not self-glorification? Of course it is. And it’s self-glorification by an organization that has a long history of elitist triumphalism and self-glorification. Where’s the Intervarsity Museum? Where’s the Campus Crusade Museum? Where’s the Youth for Christ Museum? Congratulations, UBF leaders! You’ve “pioneered” another frontier that those other second-rate campus ministries dared not venture into.

Is this how UBF members justify the yearly memorial services at Lee’s grave? By making comparisons to the Lincoln Memorial? GTFO.

BTW, the assertion that UBF centers are just simple buildings with tables, chairs, instruments and stuff is misleading. Property is not cheap, and UBF owns $millions in property all over the world.

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Comment on UBF Builds Museum in Korea by Ronwad Thicke http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-builds-museum-in-korea/#comment-6093 Tue, 03 Dec 2013 00:21:07 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2368#comment-6093 “Before he died in a fire in 2002, Lee made an announcement (in a lecture maybe? or yearly letter?) where he indicated how upset he was with what Korea ubf was doing with the lavish “bible center” buildings. I remember he rebuked one specific chapter in Korea (can’t recall which one) because they were not keeping “manger ministry”.

This was likely theatrics on Lee’s part. A ubfhistoryx post might shed some light on these types of theatrics on his part:

“This July 1998 event was the UBF “world mission report” during which S. Lee supposedly rebuked the Korean UBF leaders for having too extravagant a celebration of UBF. He was apparently so upset at having such an extravagant celebration that he felt the need to have the empty seats excised from the official photo.”

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Comment on UBF Builds Museum in Korea by twix http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-builds-museum-in-korea/#comment-6092 Mon, 02 Dec 2013 22:31:38 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2368#comment-6092 I did not mean to call you Satan, but to be careful in what you do to do it for the Lord. I spent my 27 years in UBF growing up in this ministry and I have not experienced an abusive leader. The ‘leader’ of my chapter is Samuel H. Lee who lives as a silver missionary teaching the bible in Zimbabwe. While growing up, I had 4 different bible teachers both in Korea, Germany and U.S.A. and none of them was abusive or trying to enslave me, but loving me purely as a child and later as a friend and coworker. Yes, my parents had sacrified our family for the ministry, but I saw that it is worth it when 1 person came to believe in Jesus. I don’t know about your friend Andrew, of whom you say ended up homeless. But I know about several students in our ministry who were unable to socialize due to abuse since childhood, unable to do studies, but the shepherdess loved and encouraged them regardless, that they continue now a career. Including my parents, who opened our home to a homeless person. Yes, there are also some characters in the ministry who are simply not perfect. But I love or try to love them, since family you love as they are. However, I am in this ministry not because of my bible teacher, not because of my parents, not because of UBF, but simply because of Jesus. And the majority of people I know, are the same. I am not a leader but I apologize for the hurt that our ministry has caused you. Someone said, you can be hurt only by someone you love. So it seems to be that you loved the UBF ministry very much, what caused you also that much of a hurt. Anyways, I am sorry for whatever has happened for you .But I don’t think you would have spent 24 years in this ministry if everything you were experiencing was wrong. I hope you can remember the good things, let go the bad things and be a blessing in the new ministry you find to invite people to Jesus. God bless.

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Comment on UBF Builds Museum in Korea by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-builds-museum-in-korea/#comment-6091 Mon, 02 Dec 2013 21:38:47 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2368#comment-6091 Hi twix,

I’m getting used to ubfers calling me “Satan”. Your concern is duly noted.

Speaking of truth, you mention something above that is true indeed: “To me it seems you are using a lot of it to avoid people to come to UBF.”

That is correct. I hope everyone avoids ubf. I hope ubf leaders will stand up against the abusive, cultic ways built into the ubf 12 point heritage system. I hope no more young adults in college get entangled by the false ubf ideologies. I hope no more young people get enslaved to ubf Korean masters. I hope no one else in ubf will sacrifce their families. I hope no one ever ends up in the Ohio river homeless like my friend Andrew (former Kentucky ubf director).

I am a true insider into ubf, spending 24 years there unti my wife and I closed the Detroit ubf chapter.

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Comment on UBF Builds Museum in Korea by twix http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-builds-museum-in-korea/#comment-6090 Mon, 02 Dec 2013 21:00:11 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2368#comment-6090 Half truth is the method that Satan uses.
“Did God really say not to eat from that fruit? ” First through the question, he plants mistrust. And then comes the lie “No, even if you eat you don’t die.”.
I am concerned for you, since your posts are looking scarily similar.

“Where is the $13 million ubf stash going?” The question to plant mistrust. “It is going to South Korea for magnificent “center” buildings and now a museum.” And here comes the lie. There are no “castle” centers of UBF in Korea, unless you call buildings with bible study tables, chairs, projector and probably instruments a castle.

Yes, UBF took 2nd. Gens to tombs. But it is not ancestor worshipping nor idol worshipping nor communism. That is a lie and wrong accuse. It is to teach and remember about the life of missionaries who came to Korea like Henry Appenzeller, Homer Hulbert, Horace Grant Underwood and many others. To raise concern is okay, but pls. don’t spread half truth or lies, as if that is a fact and the truth.

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Comment on UBF Builds Museum in Korea by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-builds-museum-in-korea/#comment-6089 Mon, 02 Dec 2013 19:48:24 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2368#comment-6089 Hi twix,

Thank you for making several of my points for me.

Grace and peace.

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Comment on UBF Builds Museum in Korea by twix http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-builds-museum-in-korea/#comment-6088 Mon, 02 Dec 2013 17:54:23 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2368#comment-6088 Some critisim is constructive, your post about this looks like blaten hatre, false accuse and mocking. Where is a magnificent UBF center building in Korea? What is your standard to describe something magnificent? Yes, there are magnificent church buildings of Korean mega churches with magnificent sizes and facilities (btw also in America), but UBF centers are just simple normal buildings. I know one pretty nice looking center, near Kyeonghee University, but that’s because a lot of the members there are doctors and they builded it from their own offering.
As for the museum, they are happy that the same building where the first bible studies started is after 52 years still remaining, so they turned it into a museum, putting pictures in it, how the movement/ministry had started. What is wrong with wanting to have a memorial? Do you think that anyone is worshiping Martin Luther, when they visit the place where he was living and wrote the bible? Is it making him an idol when they turned the place where he was living into a museum and keep simples things of him? No, It’s simply because he was historically significant and it’s keeping those things, that it may inspire the next generations to come. I see the point that it would be better keeping being a movement than to become a museum, considering that Christianity in Germany is not alive as the times back then. But please don’t accuse making an old historical meaningful building into a place to remember putting pictures and old daily bread books etc. into being idol worshipping. They put pictures of people, from bible conferences, mission fields etc, because you can’t take a picture of God, but what they want to show is what God did through the lifes of people. Pls. don’t accuse it because of that to be self glorification.
I came to this place after seeing your facebook post. I wonder why you included a report of UBF that they took the 2nd. Gen visiting tombs, writing if they would put such a tomb into the museum etc. Do you know who’s tombs there are, you were mocking about UBF is taking the 2nd. Gens to educate? Please, what is wrong about to take children to the graves of the missionaries coming from Germany, England, America and Canada, who have sacrified to bring the gospel to Korea and even choose to be burried in Korea than their home country. http://www.yanghwajin.net/v2/mission/mission_list.html
The intention of taking the 2nd. Gens there is to realize that there had been times, where one could not freely read the bible, praise and worship God.
The life of those missionaries, and to appreciate and to learn from it.
Do you think it’s idol worshipping or looking like communism when one takes their children to Abraham Lincolns memorial and his huge statue?
If you have been hurt by some or even several UBF members, I am very sorry for that. It seems that UBF was not the best ministry for you and I hope that Jesus may heal all your hurts. I have many non-christians friends who are hurt and disgusted by churches (which are not UBF). It is sad, but also what is church than a gathering of sinners? And what does Satan love less than to try to break relationships among church in any ways possible. Would God not want us to learn to still love and to start with me to grow more alike Jesus. Pls. think about, when you write a post if your motivation is love and care, or anger and hatre. Pls. think in that moment if Jesus will be happy about how you are using your energy. And if you are using it to bring the gospel to others. To me it seems you are using a lot of it to avoid people to come to UBF. While the majority in UBF ARE praying and doing what they can to bring people to Jesus.

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Comment on UBF Builds Museum in Korea by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-builds-museum-in-korea/#comment-6087 Sun, 01 Dec 2013 14:11:06 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2368#comment-6087 Hi Ronwad:

I’m not so sure about this:
“I’m sure Samuel Lee is rolling over in his expensive grave at this latest lavish display of self-glorification by UBF leaders…rolling over in delight.”

Before he died in a fire in 2002, Lee made an announcement (in a lecture maybe? or yearly letter?) where he indicated how upset he was with what Korea ubf was doing with the lavish “bible center” buildings. I remember he rebuked one specific chapter in Korea (can’t recall which one) because they were not keeping “manger ministry”.

But you do make a valid point, Lee certainly would have loved the praise and self-glorification.

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Comment on UBF Builds Museum in Korea by Ronwad Thicke http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-builds-museum-in-korea/#comment-6086 Sun, 01 Dec 2013 05:09:05 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2368#comment-6086 An former UBF member summarized UBF’s mission statement thus: “You are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare that you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare that you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare that you are a chosen people, …”

I’m sure Samuel Lee is rolling over in his expensive grave at this latest lavish display of self-glorification by UBF leaders…rolling over in delight.

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Comment on UBF Builds Museum in Korea by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-builds-museum-in-korea/#comment-6085 Sat, 30 Nov 2013 14:03:43 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2368#comment-6085 The Lord Rejects Saul

1 Samuel 15:1-35

15 And Samuel said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the Lord. 2 Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction[a] all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

4 So Saul summoned the people and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand men on foot, and ten thousand men of Judah. 5 And Saul came to the city of Amalek and lay in wait in the valley. 6 Then Saul said to the Kenites, “Go, depart; go down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them. For you showed kindness to all the people of Israel when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites. 7 And Saul defeated the Amalekites from Havilah as far as Shur, which is east of Egypt. 8 And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive and devoted to destruction all the people with the edge of the sword. 9 But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep and of the oxen and of the fattened calves[b] and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them. All that was despised and worthless they devoted to destruction.

10 The word of the Lord came to Samuel: 11 “I regret[c] that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments.” And Samuel was angry, and he cried to the Lord all night. 12 And Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning. And it was told Samuel, “Saul came to Carmel, and behold, he set up a monument for himself and turned and passed on and went down to Gilgal.” 13 And Samuel came to Saul, and Saul said to him, “Blessed be you to the Lord. I have performed the commandment of the Lord.” 14 And Samuel said, “What then is this bleating of the sheep in my ears and the lowing of the oxen that I hear?” 15 Saul said, “They have brought them from the Amalekites, for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen to sacrifice to the Lord your God, and the rest we have devoted to destruction.” 16 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Stop! I will tell you what the Lord said to me this night.” And he said to him, “Speak.”

17 And Samuel said, “Though you are little in your own eyes, are you not the head of the tribes of Israel? The Lord anointed you king over Israel. 18 And the Lord sent you on a mission and said, ‘Go, devote to destruction the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are consumed.’ 19 Why then did you not obey the voice of the Lord? Why did you pounce on the spoil and do what was evil in the sight of the Lord?” 20 And Saul said to Samuel, “I have obeyed the voice of the Lord. I have gone on the mission on which the Lord sent me. I have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and I have devoted the Amalekites to destruction. 21 But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the best of the things devoted to destruction, to sacrifice to the Lord your God in Gilgal.” 22 And Samuel said,

“Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
as in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
and to listen than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of divination,
and presumption is as iniquity and idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has also rejected you from being king.”
24 Saul said to Samuel, “I have sinned, for I have transgressed the commandment of the Lord and your words, because I feared the people and obeyed their voice. 25 Now therefore, please pardon my sin and return with me that I may bow before the Lord.” 26 And Samuel said to Saul, “I will not return with you. For you have rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord has rejected you from being king over Israel.” 27 As Samuel turned to go away, Saul seized the skirt of his robe, and it tore. 28 And Samuel said to him, “The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel from you this day and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you. 29 And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret, for he is not a man, that he should have regret.” 30 Then he said, “I have sinned; yet honor me now before the elders of my people and before Israel, and return with me, that I may bow before the Lord your God.” 31 So Samuel turned back after Saul, and Saul bowed before the Lord.

32 Then Samuel said, “Bring here to me Agag the king of the Amalekites.” And Agag came to him cheerfully.[d] Agag said, “Surely the bitterness of death is past.” 33 And Samuel said, “As your sword has made women childless, so shall your mother be childless among women.” And Samuel hacked Agag to pieces before the Lord in Gilgal.

34 Then Samuel went to Ramah, and Saul went up to his house in Gibeah of Saul. 35 And Samuel did not see Saul again until the day of his death, but Samuel grieved over Saul. And the Lord regretted that he had made Saul king over Israel.

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Comment on UBF Worships Founder At Graveyard by Ronwad Thicke http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-worships-founder-at-graveyard/#comment-6084 Fri, 15 Nov 2013 02:20:22 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2342#comment-6084 “Are you trying to sound like someone else?”

Are you asking whether I’m trying to write like someone else or whether I’m trying to impersonate someone? If so, the answer is neither. If the question is about my user id, I hope you didn’t miss the “R. Thicke” -> “BLURRED LINES” reference.

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Comment on UBF Worships Founder At Graveyard by BenToh http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-worships-founder-at-graveyard/#comment-6083 Tue, 12 Nov 2013 14:48:50 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2342#comment-6083 Hi Ronwad,

Thanks for your comment. Are you trying to sound like someone else?

I attended the memorial service because I was invited to attend. God used Samuel Lee in countless ways to influence me toward a Christ-like life. He had the most formative and positive Christian influence upon my life, especially my love and study of Scripture and an intentional life lived for the kingdom of God. In his mentoring of me over the last 22 years of his life, I am profoundly grateful and thankful for his labor and prayer.

There are things that I do not agree nor approve of that were done by him or by some other UBF leaders. From time to time I will address them unashamedly and clearly (much to the chagrin of many current UBF leaders!).

I know that I am threading a very fine line. I love my brothers and sisters who are still in UBF, and those who have left UBF. I do not believe that I am in any way compromising my faith nor advocating bad and unbiblical practices by showing my love, gratitude and respect by attending the memorial service.

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Comment on UBF Worships Founder At Graveyard by Ronwad Thicke http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-worships-founder-at-graveyard/#comment-6082 Tue, 05 Nov 2013 14:10:28 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2342#comment-6082 They set up 100 chairs. I thought they had the service in the cemetary’s chapel and then walked to the grave. But from reading the description, it sounds like they dragged 100 chairs into the graveyard and sat there in front of the ornate gravestone and had a worship service. Folks, this just doesn’t happen among Christians who are of sound mind and doctrine. This is only done in sects and cults; if some don’t like the religious cult connotation, then what happened here is symptomatic of a personality cult.

You call it a memorial service, but surely it was a worship service. You mentioned God’s name, but the focus was on a man, and the praise was for a man. You deny that you are engaging in a form of leader worship, but as was done when Samuel Lee was alive, you’ve BLURRED THE LINES between a man and God. Among those in the graveyard picture are individuals (P. Chang and others) who have emphatically blurred the distinction between obedience to themselves and obedience to God, following the fetid legacy of Samuel Lee. And you do this year after year.

You even drag people out there who never even met Samuel Lee and have them write and read praiseologies about him. Surely not everyone sitting and standing there in the graveyard agreed with everything that was said and done there, and some may have even been dragged out there. But most of you continue to engage in this form of idolatry. Even Mr. Toh, who–for all his recent enlightened and reformed thinking–still cannot help but fall on his own sword for Samuel Lee, making it sound as if the racism and abusiveness that Lee instituted was actually his own idea and practice (http://tinyurl.com/nau2e5g).

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Comment on How to Survive Marriage By Faith by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/how-to-survive-marriage-by-faith/#comment-6081 Tue, 05 Nov 2013 11:07:21 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2014#comment-6081 Hi Forests,

This prayer is not standard stuff.. no ubf chapter director would pray for marriage unless they were actively looking for your “suitable helper”. To the ubf missionary, prayer=action and action=prayer, so there is almost no chance they he is only praying– he is looking and likely already found your “co-worker”.

Here is what this prayer topic means:

1. Your chapter director is acting out the role of the servant in Genesis 24:1-9. He is treating you like “Isaac” and will go to a foreign land (Korea) because all the women in this land (America) are like the ungodly Canaanites. In his eyes American women are not good enough, so he ideally will want to find a Korean woman for you.

2. You will likely be married by Christmas this year, or whenever you are going to Korea (you are going to Korea right?). When you go to Korea, you’ll get engaged and/or married, and then you will come back to America. But guess what? Your “co-woker” will stay in Korea for 1 year. She will be trained until she proves she is indoctrinated with the ubf heritage sufficiently. If she fails the training, she will be made to stay another year. Some excuse will be made up for you, like “visa problems”, so that you don’t become alarmed.

This is a favorite method of mild “dead dog training” of the ubf missionaries. You’ve been demonstrating your independent mind and critical thinking lately, correct? So in the ubf missionary mind, you need training from a Korean woman because an American woman would “lead you astray”. Marriage is used like a “dangling carrot” in ubf to “train you in godliness”.

Oh and remember that special photo that your chapter director insisted you be in with him? Why was he so insistent? It was because he needed a photo with him and you so he could send back to Korea (or wherever your co-worker candidate has been found). This all sounds like my friend, who was married to a Korean woman. I’ll put you in contact with him privately (or he may read this and reply), because he can answer your questions better.

The bottom line is this: Get ready to be married and to be “trained in godliness” in some way.

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Comment on How to Survive Marriage By Faith by forestsfailyou http://www.priestlynation.com/how-to-survive-marriage-by-faith/#comment-6080 Tue, 05 Nov 2013 02:48:01 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2014#comment-6080 My Shepard prayed tonight that God would grant me a suitable helper and help me start a house church. Is this a sign he is starting this process? Or is this standard stuff?

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Comment on UBF Worships Founder At Graveyard by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-worships-founder-at-graveyard/#comment-6079 Fri, 18 Oct 2013 19:17:54 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2342#comment-6079 Hi s,

You may have a personal interest in this topic, so I apologize for my offensive post here. But please understand that celebrations at cemetaries and photos with tombstones are offensive to me, both as an American and as a Christian.

If this is just “paying respect” as you say, then please answer this one question:

Why did you not pay respect to SarahRegina in the same way?

Where are the flowers, celebrations, lectures, prayers and photo opportunies on her grave?

From my perspective, I see more about Jesus and the love of God from SarahRegina’s life than from SLee’s life. I see grace and peace from SarahRegina.

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Comment on UBF Worships Founder At Graveyard by s http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-worships-founder-at-graveyard/#comment-6078 Fri, 18 Oct 2013 08:01:21 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2342#comment-6078 ben toh was among the 132 “ancestor worshippers,” (surely by your line of rhetoric, a pagan of the worst kind), along with family of the deceased, who of course were at the cemetary to worship and offer the ritual animal sacrifices to the tombstone. or perhaps they were just paying their respects

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Comment on Katy Perry Interlude by zoe http://www.priestlynation.com/katy-perry-interlude/#comment-6077 Sun, 13 Oct 2013 16:49:06 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2304#comment-6077 Good to know. Thanks Brian!

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Comment on UBF: Wikipedia article by forestsfailyou http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-wikipedia-article/#comment-6076 Thu, 03 Oct 2013 14:03:51 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=824#comment-6076 This does not excuse them, it merely explains the behavior. I think that it is important that people are not deceived. Were it not for that wikipedia article I would have known nothing of the marriage by faith process, nothing about how their missionary practice plays out, nothing of their Confusionistic tendencies.

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Comment on UBF: Wikipedia article by forestsfailyou http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-wikipedia-article/#comment-6075 Thu, 03 Oct 2013 14:01:40 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=824#comment-6075 I find it unsurprising. UBF seems as a group to be optimistic, as Chesterton says- this means they want to white wash the world.

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Comment on UBF: Wikipedia article by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-wikipedia-article/#comment-6074 Thu, 03 Oct 2013 13:48:56 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=824#comment-6074 That’s interesting info Forests, and good to know.

What do you think about Sarah Barry and other Chicago leaders working with me to remove all negative aspects of the original Wikipedia article? We were all adults at that time.

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Comment on UBF: Wikipedia article by forestsfailyou http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-wikipedia-article/#comment-6073 Thu, 03 Oct 2013 13:32:29 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=824#comment-6073 I have discovered the likely person who changed this. Her name is Ine Suh. She was 15 at the time of the edit. I suspect this at worst makes her misguided and at best good intentioned.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-6072 Wed, 02 Oct 2013 12:37:33 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-6072 Ah yes, I have many of those “God’s work” publications. The older ones are a couple inches thick. I contributed to some of those.

An “Abraham of faith” is the first non-Korean recruited by a ubf chapter. Although many pray for a “Sarah of faith” I don’t recall ever meeting a “Sarah of faith”. By default the wife of the Abraham becomes the Sarah. Usually they will change your name to actually be Abraham. For many years I did not know the Abraham of faith in my first chapter (Toledo) was actually named Bob. I know him and his family.

Speaking of Bob, he was THE Abraham of faith for America ubf, beginning bible study somtime around 1978 or so. But he left ubf in 2001 for what he calls matters of conscience.

In order to understand all the ubf terms, you need a glossary. Some of us former ubf leaders have put together a glossary of ubf terms and slogans. Here is our entry for Abraham of faith:

“Term to describe the first Non-Korean male to become a sufficiently indoctrinated member of a UBF chapter. This person ranks highest in spiritual order among chapter members who are not UBF Koreans. Usually, he acts as the right-hand man of the Korean chapter director. He is usually praised and is looked upon as a role model for all initiates. The term “Abraham of Faith” derives from a twisting of the meaning of Genesis 12. Just as Abraham was called by God to leave his home and family and go to an unknown place under God’s direction, so UBF initiates are expected to leave their life behind to become completely devoted to UBF. See also Sarah of Faith. Note: The “Abraham of Faith” in the USA left UBF, citing matters of conscience in 2001.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by forestsfailyou http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-6071 Wed, 02 Oct 2013 05:02:42 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-6071 I was recently reading Gods work in America UBF 2003 (there are books around here- I am living in the bible house) One pray topic was intriguing. It said “To raise up an Abraham and Sarah” What does this mean?

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-6070 Tue, 01 Oct 2013 17:01:19 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-6070 forest,

“I mentioned it sounded like something from Confucianism and he commented that many things in the old testament incidentally sound that way.”

No, the OT does not incidentally sound like Confucianism, unless you are steeped in Eastern thought and study the OT through the lens of obedience or one of the other major values of Confucianism. I wrote about this here: http://www.priestlynation.com/archives/274

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-6069 Tue, 01 Oct 2013 16:57:07 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-6069 Hi forest,

You mention some very valid points.

“But why should I believe you anymore than them?”

Exactly! Why do I share my story here? The title of my blog is “my journey of recovery from University Bible Fellowship”. I could care less if people believe me or not. I am not telling my story to persuade anyone to leave ubf or to stay in ubf. What do I want? I want my story to be heard! I speak of facts and events and my real recovery after spending 24 years in ubf (from 1987 to 2011). I was a sheep, a shepherd, a fellowship leader, a adminstrative servant, and a director of a chapter.

I really only want people to make their own decisions, and my blog offers some unique insight into things rarely spoken of within the walls of ubf. Most people who leave ubf after a few years have to deal with severe emotional and psychological trauma, and have difficulty adjusting to the normal world. I know because many of those former ubf members have contacted me from around the world.

“I pointed out that God does not curse Canaan- that Noah does, and that Noah in fact sinned.”

Awesome! I hope you keep pointing those things out. But be fore-warned, ubf bible teachers don’t take kindly to such things. I hope you don’t experience their dark side, which is another reason I write this blog and our other blog, http://www.ubfriends.org. I want to shine light on the dark underbelly of ubf so no one else gets hurt.

In regard to marriage, one of my friends wasn’t in ubf too long, and he was invited to go to Korea. My other friends pleaded with the Koreans not to talk about marriage by faith, but of course they already had someone picked out for him.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by forestsfailyou http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-6068 Tue, 01 Oct 2013 16:50:04 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-6068 Reading anthony’s post I find it unlikely I will be “married off” when I go to Brazil- since you mention I am not Korean, and they have known me 1 month.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by forestsfailyou http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-6067 Tue, 01 Oct 2013 16:47:29 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-6067 I am very much not Korean. The problem I have with your claims is that they are unattackable to some point. Its like telling a lunatic he is crazy- to his observation nothing is wrong. Am I a lunatic- or am I the one who sees clearly. Saying they are deceptive is fine but could it not be that *you* are deceptive. This is in no way an attack- its just your blog I have learned a lot here and it has made me very cautious of their teachings. But why should I believe you anymore than them?

The first thing that gives evidence to you claim I noticed yesterday at bible study.The interpretation of the story of Noah and his sons is worrisome. My bible teacher (who is the pastor) said that this shows that Spiritual Order must be maintained (a phrase that appears no where in the bible) and that Gods punishment of Canaan shows us the correct response when someone in higher position sins.
I pointed out that God does not curse Canaan- that Noah does, and that Noah in fact sinned. I talked to my common life brother who mentioned that it is possible this was not a good example, I mentioned it sounded like something from Confucianism and he commented that many things in the old testament incidentally sound that way.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-6066 Tue, 01 Oct 2013 12:40:58 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-6066 Hi forests,

I am glad that you have not yet experienced the harmful control and authoritarianism that I and thousands others have experienced. However, I must point out that you describe exactly the way ubf looked when I first joined. Like a frog in a pan of water that won’t jump out when the heat is increased 1 degree at a time, I didn’t react in a healthy way when I saw many kinds of abuse.

I lived in common life too. It was great. I was so excited to be a missionary too, until I realized ubf is a Korean organization intent on sending Korean missionaries.

Of course there was no mention of marriage. I asked the same thing– is it arranged? They said no not really. The ubf people don’t want you to jump ship, so they won’t reveal the 12 point heritage all at once. They want to be “not so pushy” at first and are very sneaky about entraping your life.

Do you have a personal shepherd? If so, that shepherd has big plans for you. He/she will be your weekly morality supervisor for the rest of your life. And he/she will eventually approve/disapprove your major life decisions.

Just be careful and keep your eyes open and by all means ask for the “50th ubf Anniversary” blue book. Read it and see what you think. Study the 12 point ubf heritage system and see if you can find any contradictions. Look for confucian teachings that are often presented as the Christian gospel.

And finally, are you sensing fear or love? Be ready to jump ship when the fear sets in. That usually takes about 7 years of ubf training– then things suddenly become clear.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by forestsfailyou http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-6065 Tue, 01 Oct 2013 01:48:31 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-6065 I attended a previous UBF chapter and they never seemed pushy and did not seem to meet any of the claims I read on this blog. The place I have moved to (and am living in common life with) seems like to display some of the characteristics. I mentioned becoming a missionary today and the pastor seemed rather excited. There has been no mention of marriage- except when I have brought up concerns that it sounds arranged.

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Comment on Katy Perry Interlude by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/katy-perry-interlude/#comment-6064 Fri, 27 Sep 2013 02:30:17 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2304#comment-6064 Hi Zoe. Yes I find many of Katy Perry’s songs highly relevant to our struggle with leaving ubf behind. Just FYI, my priestlynation.com email is gone. I removed it. So if you need to contact me, just use the Contact form here or use my new email: brian (at) knet6 (dot) com

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Comment on Katy Perry Interlude by zoe http://www.priestlynation.com/katy-perry-interlude/#comment-6063 Mon, 23 Sep 2013 03:27:03 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2304#comment-6063 Exactly!

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by zoe http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-6062 Sun, 22 Sep 2013 18:04:07 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-6062 Anthony, my advice is, get out before they make you marry someone. I liked someone in my UBF center, but they got him married to someone else, and to this day I thank the Lord because it means I was free to get out when I realized it was craziness. If I had married, it would have been nearly impossible to leave. And the death of my soul would have continued. They use marriages very strategically. Please be careful for your own sake. God loves you and does not need the help of UBF to sanctify you or give you a meaningful purpose for your life.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by zoe http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-6061 Sun, 22 Sep 2013 17:57:38 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-6061 Desiree, (I hope I’m not too late for you to see this) UBF leaders are deceived about the meaning of the gospel and its practical applications for their lives, but they are not stupid. They are fully aware of the criticism they receive and have received for years from a range of people both within the Church (by that I mean all Christians), as well as from unbelievers. (When I say “criticism,” I do not mean “negativity.” I mean “looking at something with analytical ability to make an objective statement on its value or quality.”) What I’m saying is that the leaders are smart enough to give you answers that you would want to hear. They are not going to say to you, “Yes, I do intend to manipulate you with Bible passages.” But that does not mean that they won’t.
Leaders’ answers to your questions and concerns which seem nice do not negate their practices or the practices of UBF for the past so many years. Don’t be too easily satisfied by their answers. Watch what they do. Not only to you, but also to others.
Your words about communication and relationships make sense, if you are dealing with honest people. But the truth is that many people in UBF are not honest – they are deceived, and then further deceive themselves and others. When I left (read “escaped”) my UBF center, my Bible teacher, who was also the leader of the center with her husband, told the other UBF enter members that I moved to another state. Of course, I did not leave my job suddenly one weekend and move to another state. And she knew it. But, that is what she told them.
Anyway, what I want to say to you is stand your ground, keep asking hard questions – and if the leaders answer well, that is good. But also keep your eyes open. So many times when I reflect on my time in UBF, I ask myself how I was so stupid not to see what was really going on . . .

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Comment on Message Rating Explained by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/message-rating-explained/#comment-6060 Thu, 05 Sep 2013 01:38:59 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2228#comment-6060 Yes, it would be rare to find a 5 star sermon. It does’t mean such a sermon is on par with the Prince of Preachers, but it would mean the sermon is extremely well done. Andy Stanely and Chris Brown both gave 5 star sermons at the 2013 Global Leadership Summit. These are rare gems that the Spirit speaks through magnificently.

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Comment on Message Rating Explained by Joshua http://www.priestlynation.com/message-rating-explained/#comment-6059 Thu, 05 Sep 2013 00:39:57 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2228#comment-6059 I like how you call five stars “prince of preachers” . LOL

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by Joshua http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-5999 Wed, 07 Aug 2013 04:21:16 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-5999 Anthony, I couldn’t help but get involved in this conversation and echo some of Brian’s advice. Like Brian, I was also a Christian before coming to UBF, although my parents were strong Christians. When they expressed concern about my own marriage by faith process, I was told to treat their concerns as being “Satan’s attack,” and that I should decide whether to “obey men or obey God.” I chose to “obey God” by following the UBF leaders. In actual fact, it was because I feared the UBF leaders and I knew that if I honoured my parents, my marriage would be canceled.

What I have since realized is that UBF persuaded me to break one of the ten commandments by dishonouring my parents. This commandment to honour parents does not apply only when your parents are believers or in UBF, but universally. To persuade or even insinuate that it is God’s will to marginalize parents is a lie straight from hell, from the enemy whose aim is to kill and destroy. My marriage got started on the totally wrong foot. It was started on expediency, fearing man not God, and disobedience to the basic commandments of Scripture while feigning obedience to the so-called “great world mission command.” This did not honour God. It did not place my family in a place of blessing, but in a place of wounding. By God’s grace, we were able to find forgiveness, but it has irreparably affected my relationship with my parents. Wounding people and alienating family for the sake of UBF mission is not honouring to God. And don’t let anyone convince you to “hate your family for Jesus’ namesake” from the gospels. That’s a classic example of straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel.

There’s much that could be said. I wish people had gotten my attention when I was in your shoes, but God didn’t intervene in my case until later. God be with your decisions. Fear God, not man. And don’t worry too much about pleasing God, just focus on loving Jesus and obeying His word simply.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-5902 Wed, 31 Jul 2013 11:20:13 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-5902 I too was a Roman Catholic. I left when I was 18, to join ubf. I had those same conversations with my parents, and I regret it now.

I’m now 44, which means my entire adult formative years were in steeped in ubf ideology. I spent my entire youth defending the ubf heritage and trying to make it work. I ended up a hollow shell of a man, a man who doesn’t know how to be a husband or a father. I spend so much time in bible study at ubf that I neglected time I needed to spend with my wife and children. A friend of mine spent 29 years in ubf, and he ended up literally standing in the Ohio river as a homeless man. ubf shepherds turn their back on you the moment you question their heritage (i.e. “one-to-one”, “daily bread”, etc. etc.)

So I guess what I’m saying is not whether to stay or to leave, but to make your own decision and don’t end up like me and my friends.

Do you know about the 4 reform movements in ubf? In 1976 Korean shepherds saw the same problems I saw. Then in 1989, 2000 and 2011, a mass number of leaders have left ubf, mostly in protest and mostly because we realized the danger of ubf teachings, especially toward family. These problems are dismissed by ubf leaders as just Korean cultural problems. But these movements were mostly led by Koreans, so that clearly cannot be true. ubf leaders try to hide these 4 movements, calling us “rebels” or “bitter and wounded” or worse, I’ve been called “spiritually dead and an evil spirit attacking ubf”. In reality, I’m just sharing my story of what ubf taught me and the poor decisions I made over the years.

I see something else I feel compelled to point out about your words here. I notice how you put good in quotes, and I sense something ubf taught me. ubf shepherds taught me to despise what is good. If something was “good” then I was taught that it can’t be from God, and if it was something “good” from God, then I must sacrifice it. This is the heart of ubf teaching that distorts the gospel of Jesus. Yes the gospel of Jesus and His work on the cross is our salvation. But we are not called to despise what is good. As Catholics, I think your parents understand this, just as mine did. If you want a bible verse about this, check out Romans 12:9 (whole chapter). ubf taught me only the first couple verses of Romans 12, about sacrifice. But if you keep reading, you see this: “Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.” A common phrase among those who leave ubf is this: “call a spade a spade”. We are searching for reality, and I am SO thankful my parents were still there for me, with all their goodness and faith (yes Catholics do love the same Lord!) after 20+ years!

Oh and one more thing: please be aware that your ubf shepherd probably already knows you are talking to me, and maybe read this. There are some in ubf who wish to shut down my blogs. So they will probably not be happy about our conversations. I’m not sure what to tell you, but just be aware of it.

Grace and peace my friend.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by Anthony Reifler http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-5893 Wed, 31 Jul 2013 05:41:12 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-5893 Well I come from a Roman Catholic background on both sides of my family, and my family is not even the religious type of Roman Catholic, but nominal. Although I’ve shared the gospel of Jesus with them, they’re still under the worldly deception, or Satan’s gospel, that since God is love, he will surely not send anyone to hell, unless they’re pure “evil” people, so as long as you are a “good” person (obviously by our double standard) or even just have “good” intentions, you have nothing to worry about. That’s why the message of the cross is foolishness to them. It was actually earlier this year, shortly after I returned from Indonesia that I realized this truth, although I had received Jesus as my Lord and Savior 2 years prior.

However, you’re definitely right in the wedge UBF has placed between my family and I. I’m beginning to see how my gratitude to UBF and my personal shepherd for being God’s agent in calling me out of that darkness and into His wonderful light has misled me to view my obedience to God through the same lens as my obedience to UBF. Also now that I think about it I realize UBF’s overemphasis on Genesis 12:2-3, in that to be a blessing you got to leave your family behind. I believed that although nothing can separate me from the love of God if I choose my family over UBF, I would not be able to be as great a blessing. In fact I was led to believe that Genesis 12:2-3 is the true meaning of Matthew 6:33. “Seek first God’s kingdom and His righteousness by leaving your family and He will then take care of and bless them.”

Thank you so much for helping me to see clearly what I was getting myself into! No I have not discussed being a missionary with any Christian pastors outside UBF, but I definitely agree I should look into other missionary opportunities from Christian churches or organizations as the Lord may very well have laid on me the heart for being a missionary in foreign nations.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-5878 Tue, 30 Jul 2013 13:05:52 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-5878 Oh and one more thing: It is predictable that your ubf personal shepherd wants you to wait to make a decision until after the ISBC. Why is that? He will want you to make a decision at the ISBC, actually. During “reflection/testimony writing” your ubf personal shepherd will be looking for your decision.

The ISBC is a big production, and you’ll be most “fired up” during this time. Your personal shepherd also knows that the longer you wait to decide after the ISBC, the less chance of being loyal to ubf there is. So if you escape making a decision during the ISBC, expect some pressure immediately following.

Also, is this really a decision? I would test your personal shepherd. Tell him “no” right now. Could you do that? Tell him I want to wait and pray about it more. Would your personal shepherd accept that? Usually a “decision of faith” in ubf is a “glory story” that isn’t really your own decision. The “decisions of faith” are just you accepting the ubf identity to be a shepherd and missionary. Normally, ubf shepherds don’t accept any other calling as being valid. So your shepherd will say “You are free to make your own decision”. But he is really saying “You are free to do what I tell you. You are free to be loyal to ubf.”

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-5877 Tue, 30 Jul 2013 12:55:17 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-5877 Hi Anthony,

Here is some food for thought…

Have you discussed being a missionary with any Chrsitian pastors outside of ubf? I strongly suggest doing so.

Do you see the wedge your ubf shepherd has planted between you and your own parents? Your parents love you. Your family loves you. Please consider what they have to say. What does it matter if your parents don’t pass your litmus test of “being saved” or “knowing the lord”? If that is indeed true, wouldn’t they need your love more than anyone else?

I was already a Christian when I joined ubf, but my personal shepherds convinced me that I was not a Christian. They convinced me of the lie that all my life before ubf was bad and all my life now was good, and that if I ever left I would face terrible consequences. Well I’ve left and I’m doing very well! I resigned as a director in protest in 2011.

Maybe you could read and participate in our blog ubfriends.org? Have you seen this? The website is a joint effort between senior ubf leaders and long-time ex-members (including myself). The blog is not officially endorsed by ubf. (Isn’t that telling?)

We are attempting to have dialogue about many, many topics that ubf has kept hidden for 50 years. We are providing a place for ex-members to recover and process our time in ubf.

When I shared my 24 year story with 4 Christian, non-ubf pastors, they all asked one question: Were you in a cult? As much as I loved ubf, as much as I thought they were my friends and as much as I hated to admit it, the answer to that question is “yes”.

The first 5 to 7 years in ubf are wonderful. But then the training and life challenges set in, such as accepting arranged marriage.

I actually do have some advice if you want to stay in ubf and survive:

1. Don’t ever, ever question the motives or actions of your ubf shepherd. Never show any signs of disloyalty. Especially, never ask “What is dead-dog training?”

2. Accept the first woman presented to you during “marriage by faith”. If you don’t, you’ll be in for a world of training (especially if you end up outside of America, at least we have laws here). You only get one shot at arranged marriage, except in extremely rare cases.

3. Decide if you will be willing to give up your furture children and your wife for the sake of mission. Whenever you marry across countries, ubf will keep you apart for at least 1 year so you won’t become “family centered”.

4. Decide whether you accept your ubf shepherd for life, because that is his attitude. He is your spiritaul advisor forever now.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by Anthony Reifler http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-5868 Tue, 30 Jul 2013 03:33:29 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-5868 Yes I’m a single American and went on the short-term mission trip a couple months after receiving my elementary teacher certificate last August. While I was there they told me I would go through the arranged marriage by faith process when I return. The hard part about returning is that I live with my parents who are opposed to me returning as a missionary to Indonesia and have even told me they think UBF is a cult. However, since they don’t know the Lord at all I haven’t taken them seriously.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by Chris http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-5863 Mon, 29 Jul 2013 21:27:35 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-5863 Someone wrote about the ICOC (a group very similar to UBF): “First they save you, then they enslave you.” I think it’s a good summary of the problem Joshua has already explained, and it was also my experience with UBF.

Another problem of UBF is that even though they became somewhat softer after the authoritarian and abusive leader/founder figure died, they never have publicly and openly admitted, apologized or repented for all of the misconduct and abuse of the past (different from the ICOC). I see a stubborn inablity to repent and admit mistakes which in my opinion makes the top leaders look more like Confucianists than Christians. Image and numbers is everything that counts for them, and they think they are not accountable to anybody, neither Christians from outside UBF nor long-time members from inside who start asking critical questions. I’m lucky that I was able to leave after 10 years and I recommend everybody not to get involved with UBF until they have issued a clear statement of repentance for all that happened in the past. They have many hidden teachings and practices like “marriage by faith” that are only revealed to you slowly over time, in lock-step with your indoctrination process.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-5848 Mon, 29 Jul 2013 02:47:33 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-5848 Anthony, just thought of a question for you: are you single? are you non-Korean? I would assume so, since you went on a 4 month short-term journey. If you are single and non-Korean, then it would be highly irregular and very odd for ubf to send you as a missionary. To my knowledge, you would be then the first non-Korean, single man to be sent out to a foreign country as a missionary in 50 years. I suspect you will be required to go through the arranged “marriage by faith” process, and even then it would be difficult to be sent out.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-5846 Mon, 29 Jul 2013 01:43:29 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-5846 Hi Anthony,

I’m glad to hear from you. In general, I don’t give advice on these kinds of things, and I don’t pretend to know what God’s will is for you in this particular matter, except to insist that you make up your own mind, paying attention to your own conscience, and consider your own future.

I do know the director you speak of somewhat. And I spent 24 years in ubf, becoming a director myself.

In regard to being a short-term missionary, I also did that when I was a single college student in 1992. I went to Russia for 3 months. Upon coming back, I was convinced being a missionary to Russia was my calling. But ubf people told me that wouldn’t be possible and it never became a reality.

If you want to talk further please ask any questions here or use my contact form to contact me privately.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by Anthony Reifler http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-5845 Mon, 29 Jul 2013 01:17:49 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-5845 Hi Brian,

I spent 4 months with Jakarta UBF as a short-term missionary and was so convinced upon leaving that it is God’s calling for me to return as a full-time missionary that I purchased a plane ticket to return within 3 months. However I began having doubts of this calling, in particular from the influence of my family who aren’t saved (yet). So I agreed with the Philadelphia UBF director, Dr. Moses Noh, that I would postpone it until at least after the summer international conference, which is this coming weekend. Over the past week the Lord removed those doubts from me until I came across this website, so now I don’t know what to think.

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Comment on UBF Ideology – 12 point heritage by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/this-is-your-brain-on-ubf/#comment-5829 Sat, 27 Jul 2013 18:23:55 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2137#comment-5829 The wonderful bible became a binding chain.
The mission for the world became a black burden.
The beautiful campus became a dark lonely place.
The humble manger caught on fire and choked me.
The spirit of giving bled me dry.
The self-support/layman ministry made me crawl like a zombie.
The spiritual order ruled my life like a massive demon of authority.

http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/27/ubf-doctrine-ideological-slogans/

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by joshua http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-5809 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 01:12:31 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-5809 I was also mentored in UBF for 10 years, leaving last fall. My mentor helped me a lot in various ways, especially in helping me through a time of very difficult pain. His help was meaningful and real, and I think it was motivated by his love. However, after I became a committed member, the help continued and continued. I became spiritually abused and so did my wife. As Brian mentioned, the mentoring relationship is often very beneficial at first, but it is considered an inseparable relationship for life, as inseparable as the relationship with Jesus. There is even UBF literature stating that in heaven we will bow down in thanks to our UBF mentor. It’s that extreme sometimes.

My parents were in exactly the same position as your parishioner’s mother several years ago. They tried to encourage me to listen to a pastor and counseled me to leave. My UBF mentor said that they were being used to distract me from my real spiritual calling in UBF, and I must obey Jesus’ command to deny myself and hate my mother/father/sister/etc from the gospels. I was discouraged from visiting family for more than very brief visits.

UBF is not all bad; there are many wonderful blessings that God gave me through UBF. When I was thirsty in my soul, they gave me a fresh drink of water. But then they proceeded to drown me in the works-righteousness, legalism, authority, and control.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-5807 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 10:30:55 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-5807 Hello EMC,

Yes I can shed a lot more light on the situation. The mother is concerned but as you say she “couldn’t express exactly why”. I stayed 24 years in ubf and became one of its leaders. I also had concerns, but I could not articulate why, so I just dismissed them.

After leaving in protest in 2011, I am now processing ubf ideology and the ubf heritage to understand why I had those concerns, and why I stayed so long. I have so far discovered that there is a lot of Korean Confucianism in the mentoring of ubf people. Often their advise is based on Confucian concepts (loyalty, social peace, obedience, etc) and not on the Christian gospel (grace, justice, freedom, etc). Also I found that ubf actively practices the Shepherding Movement ideals. This was a failed movement in the 1970’s. I have more info if you want on that.

In regard to the specific advice you mention, I’ve heard that same story a thousand times the past 24 years. ubf mentoring has some fundamental rules for the “sheep” (new bible students).

Rule #1 is that the mentoring is permanent. Your friend will not be able to leave the mentoring any time soon. And she will be convinced that she doesn’t want to leave. It will look like her own decision but really it is the shepherd’s decision for her (sort of like leaving someone with only one choice). ubf mentors expect lifelong commitment that begins like a frog boiling in water but the temperature is turned up only 1 degree at a time.

Rule #2 is that the mentoring is opposite of the sheep’s desire. It is predictable that your friend would be advised not to take the scholarship because most people would want the scholarship. And it is doubly “bad” in ubf eyes if the scholarship would take your friend to another city or away from that ubf chapter. And I notice it is a Christian college. ubf mentors (shepherds) normally think they are better than all Christian colleges even though they have no formal training. They don’t’ want sheep (who they think they own) to be exposed to Christian schools or Christian doctrine.

Rule #3 is that you must sacrifice, always. Taking a scholarship may be seen as an easy way out in ubf. But the decision itself is not so important, ubf wants a “glory story”. They want to hear how your friend turned down a scholarship to sacrifice it on the altar like Isaac (they live in the old testament often) and how she made a “decision of faith” to study in ubf (God’s best ways).

I have much more to say. I would be glad to talk or meet in person. Here is another blog me and some friends started that sheds more light on ubf practices and beliefs: ubfriends.org

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by Elizabeth McCardel Chan http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-5806 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 02:32:57 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-5806 Hi, I live in the NYC area and am part of the leadership at my local church. A beautiful young lady in the church has recently become involved with someone within the UBF movement. Her mother is concerned but couldn’t express exactly why. Just because this Christian lady had become a mentor to her daughter, why should she be concerned were her thoughts. She asked me to do a bit of research. The UBF’er is suggesting she turn down a scholarship to a Christian college and instead become a more involved member of UBF. Can you shed any further light on UBF since your last post?

Thank you,
EMC

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-5560 Wed, 08 May 2013 09:26:03 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-5560 Hi again Desiree. Your comment here has stayed with me and I’ve mulled it over. This morning I realized something and want to ask you a question: Did you stop to think about asking me a question? In your comments I noted that you did not ask me even one question.

Do you realize what your comments above reveal? Even after one year at ubf and even after what you describe as a good experience, you are already displaying the cult mindset.

The cultic mindset rejects critical thinking and never asks questions when encountering new situations. So while it was good of you to ask your bible teacher those questions, your mindset is being trained to do what ubf does best: dictate your viewpoint and command others to do something.

I would plead with you to keep asking critical questions, as you did when you began bible study. That is why I didn’t respond to your comments above: you are dictating and commanding me instead of getting to know me or even making an attempt to understand me.

Right now you are polite and still show signs of independent thought processing. But already I can identify signs that this is being eroded. Much of your advice is good, but are you aware that there are hundreds, actually thousands of former members of your organization out there who are hurting with a whole range of psychological problems? Have you tried to understand them?

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-5555 Wed, 08 May 2013 01:44:49 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-5555 Thank you for sharing your experience. I hope it continues to be a good one.

Grace and peace.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by Desiree http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-5554 Wed, 08 May 2013 01:04:05 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-5554 Hey you guys!

I find this article very, very, interesting. I have been actively part of UBF for about a year now, and now as I am ready to graduate college, I am considering leaving and being a member at my Missouri Synod Lutheran Church. For anyone who hasn’t known the lutheran church, it is very conservative, so actually when I went to UBF, I was relieved by seeing so many people who looked free from guilt.

When I first thought about leaving, I was super afraid because I had read all these articles about how manipulative ubf is. I was afraid to be bullied or whatever; however, once I told everybody-even the leaders they said quite the opposite of what I was thinking: “Well, of course I would want you to stay part of this church, because I’ll miss you so much. However, if you feel that’s best for you, go for it! Just rely on God for guidance.”

I have recognized some of the other thinks you guys talk about, the desire to tell you who they think you should marry, or apparent required attendance. So, me being me, lol I naturally brought it up to my bible study teacher, I simply said, “look, I feel a little to overwhelmed, like I have standards I have to maintain for you. And honestly, I’m not interested in pleasing you, not if it’s going to make me feel poorly about myself in the face of God.” After I shared my concerns with her, it was fine, she explained that she was sorry, that that wasn’t her intention.

So, I’m not hear to disqualify any of your feelings, I realize that many probably feel hurt or afraid. But I have to say, so many of our feelings of fear and hurt come from a lack of communication. UBF leaders are just as much of sinners as anybody else. I have never heard anyone say they are more righteous then anyone else, but rather that is sometimes the impression we get when anyone stands up in front of us and tries to teach us the Bible. The first day I had Bible study, I said to my Bible teacher: “How do I know to trust what you are saying to me, that you aren’t trying to manipulate me with Bible passages?” She replied: “Don’t trust me, trust the Bible. Whatever I say, go back to the Bible, if anything goes against scripture, please tell me, I’m still learning too.”

Bottom line, it’s good to be cautious whenever someone is trying to teach the word of God. We should not just openly and naively listen without going back to God’s word. I don’t disclaim that UBF can be authoritative. However, if you feel this to be the case, I think it’s important to go to the people who have done this to you, and explain the problem to them. People are human, and we all make mistakes, and hurt one another. The only way to work through these things is through communication. If after communication you still feel like you haven’t been heard, find a witness to go to that person and talk to them, if they still don’t listen, then leave that friendship. This is the model Paul established in Romans and I think it fits for this situation. I know it certainly has for me.

As of right now, I still do Bible study and attend church at UBF. However, I made it clear to my Bible Teacher that I might or might not be leaving. I do not want to leave because of any resentment or anger towards anyone, just because I feel like I should give back to the lutheran church and school I went to as a kid. As of now, I’m just praying for God’s discernment, and so is my Bible teacher. She says that she is a bit biased, because she doesn’t want me to leave, but she also prays with me for GOD’S WILL TO BE DONE not her own.

Anyway, I hope this might be interesting information for everyone!

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Comment on A Grandmother’s Questions by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/a-grandmothers-questions/#comment-5544 Mon, 06 May 2013 01:19:38 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2099#comment-5544 @Chris: Yes that list rocks. The interesting thing is that the grandmother only put things on the list (items 1 to 13) that she saw in her grandson’s experience and from her family’s interaction with RW and Chicago ubf leaders. The grandson’s dad also contacted me and their whole family was concerned about their son being pushed to break up with his girlfriend, to live in a less-than-desirable apt. and severe guilt-tripping about visiting home sometimes. Item 14 was added by her as a concern after I sent her information about the blue book.

@Joshua: Yes, I have come to the conclusion that the ubf worldview is just as you say “a fantasy world”. It can only exist as long as there are people to enable it and support it. I had to ask myself, Is the kingdom of God so frail that it needs me to enable it? Certainly not! Thus I realized that KOPHN is a wishdream or what some call a “shadow mission”, not the real mission Jesus gave His followers.

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Comment on A Grandmother’s Questions by Joshua http://www.priestlynation.com/a-grandmothers-questions/#comment-5539 Sat, 04 May 2013 21:36:37 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2099#comment-5539 These 14 points are 14 hammer blows to the unbiblical fantasy world that is UBF. May these blows strike true, hard, and quick to shatter the lies and deceit that keep so many people oppressed under the heavy yoke of works-righteousness and the spiritually-deadening idolatry of UBF heritage.

I challenge all readers to give a deep, thoughtful, and prayerful examination of your faith and practice in light of these questions.

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Comment on A Grandmother’s Questions by Chris http://www.priestlynation.com/a-grandmothers-questions/#comment-5538 Sat, 04 May 2013 17:14:48 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2099#comment-5538 That granny rocks. Short and concise summary of the major reasons why nobody should join UBF and member should re-think if they really want to continue to support that organization if there is no real fundamental change in all of these issue.

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Comment on My last ubf panel presenation by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/my-last-ubf-panel-presenation/#comment-5531 Wed, 01 May 2013 16:18:10 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2088#comment-5531 That would be water to my soul.

Unfortunately what we’ve gotten so far is this:

“Today, we recognize this policy of life-long shepherding, lording-over authority, and control is God’s best way of making disciples, has caused great blessing around the world, and is the sole purpose of our ministry. The leadership of UBF absolutely commits ourselves to this task all the more for the next 50 years and asks the patient understanding of the wounded people all over the world for our attempts to bless them so profoundly.”

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Comment on My last ubf panel presenation by joshua http://www.priestlynation.com/my-last-ubf-panel-presenation/#comment-5530 Wed, 01 May 2013 15:58:05 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2088#comment-5530 Ya, perhaps the UBF leadership may want to plagiarize a little:

“Today, we recognize this policy of life-long shepherding, lording-over authority, and control is wrong, has caused great harm, and has no place in our ministry. The leadership of UBF sincerely apologizes and asks the forgiveness of the wounded people all over the world for failing them so profoundly.”

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Comment on My last ubf panel presenation by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/my-last-ubf-panel-presenation/#comment-5529 Wed, 01 May 2013 02:34:03 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2088#comment-5529 Thanks for those links, joshua, and for the spiritual abuse checklist you pointed out earlier. These are all very helpful.

This quote says a lot: “Today, we recognize this policy of assimilation was wrong, has caused great harm, and has no place in our country. The Government of Canada sincerely apologizes and asks the forgiveness of the Aboriginal peoples of this country for failing them so profoundly.”

What makes me encouraged by this is that the apology is combined with a renouncement. Not only are they saying “We are sorry” they are saying “We are wrong” and “We won’t tolerate such harmful behavior”.

This sends a clear message to the hardliners who perpetrated the assimilation and also sends a message of opening the door to reconciliation of those who were harmed. Excellent.

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Comment on My last ubf panel presenation by Joshua http://www.priestlynation.com/my-last-ubf-panel-presenation/#comment-5525 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 04:14:45 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2088#comment-5525 Indeed, thank God for Canadians.

There’s an interesting thing happening in Canada over the past few years called the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (http://www.trc.ca/websites/trcinstitution/index.php?p=3). It is investigating the abuses that were perpetrated by the Canadian government in generations past by forcing aboriginal children into residential schools. It is investigating it thoroughly and preparing detailed public reports in order to educate the public and bring reconciliation and healing to generations of abused first nations people. The government of Canada made a public apology and it was read by the Prime Minister of Canada in Parliament (http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/media.asp?id=2146).

UBF should learn from this.

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Comment on My last ubf panel presenation by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/my-last-ubf-panel-presenation/#comment-5523 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 01:54:17 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2088#comment-5523 I think it was our friend Andy S. who pointed it out to me that I was presenting. I didn’t even bother to look at the list of presenters because I didn’t feel like attending any of them. I’m glad I was able to pull this off however, even for a 5 minute presentation, because I clearly was being setup for failure. Thank God for Canadians!

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Comment on My last ubf panel presenation by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/my-last-ubf-panel-presenation/#comment-5522 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 01:49:07 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2088#comment-5522 Indeed, I would now… However I was still “in” when I gave this presentation, and I was scrambling having had a limited time to prepare it. I was much nicer to ubf at the time :)

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Comment on My last ubf panel presenation by Joshua http://www.priestlynation.com/my-last-ubf-panel-presenation/#comment-5521 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 01:44:25 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2088#comment-5521 If it was me, I’d make it bold, all-caps, flashing, and a hand would come out the screen and slap everyone on the face to make sure they are all paying attention.

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Comment on My last ubf panel presenation by Joshua http://www.priestlynation.com/my-last-ubf-panel-presenation/#comment-5520 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 01:42:40 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2088#comment-5520 I laughed when I saw how small the font was for the words: “Some of the worst ideas in history have come from people who did not listen to critics and did not examine themselves.” Was that statement hiding in there?

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Comment on My last ubf panel presenation by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/my-last-ubf-panel-presenation/#comment-5519 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 01:22:15 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2088#comment-5519 lol. That was back before you stayed up all night clicking on your own article…

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Comment on My last ubf panel presenation by John Y http://www.priestlynation.com/my-last-ubf-panel-presenation/#comment-5518 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 01:12:29 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2088#comment-5518 What the heck? “When did my article with Gerardo R ever get second place for Most Viewed?” No wonder the presentation got cut off. I would have walked out of the room just because of that slide alone.

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Comment on My last ubf panel presenation by John Y http://www.priestlynation.com/my-last-ubf-panel-presenation/#comment-5517 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 01:07:51 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2088#comment-5517 Hmm…I don’t remember this presentation. It looks like a good presentation to me.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-5506 Fri, 26 Apr 2013 16:27:20 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-5506 Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Robert! I am continually astounded by the resemblance of experiences like yours. The “little Pharisee” observation is nearly universal across ubf chapters around the world. Glad you had the self-awareness to recognize it! Grace and peace.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by Robert Soltys http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-5497 Wed, 24 Apr 2013 04:57:58 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-5497 This is an interesting blog. I was part of UBF’s Chicago Main Center Church for roughly 2 years and everything I have read about the movement in your blog is spot on. I have friends in the religious group that are still active and, of course, I am unable to hang with them. They intentionally marginalize themselves. Though I learned a lot about the Bible, NT & OT, I was turned into a “little pharisee”. I almost lost my biological family and my personality. By God’s grace I was prevented from turning into a complete drone. Like a bad breakup or car accident, my time at that church will forever be with me. I wish aberrant Christian groups like this didn’t exist. They pray on the naive & weak minded as I was in my early 20’s. It’s a shame the church is likely never to change. Thank you for this blog and for your honesty. It is so healthy to talk about and admit. Blessings in Christ, Rob

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Comment on My Biblical Mandate by Paul T. Evans http://www.priestlynation.com/my-biblical-mandate/#comment-4958 Sun, 10 Mar 2013 02:29:14 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=1812#comment-4958 Another Biblical mandate: http://youtu.be/zPAN4zWavuw

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Comment on How to Survive Marriage By Faith by Paul T. Evans http://www.priestlynation.com/how-to-survive-marriage-by-faith/#comment-4957 Sun, 10 Mar 2013 02:07:27 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2014#comment-4957 With dead-dog training like that, he should have adopted this guy as a role model: http://soundportraits.org/on-air/worlds_longest_diary/transcript.php

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Comment on What is spiritual abuse? by joshua http://www.priestlynation.com/what-is-spiritual-abuse/#comment-4717 Wed, 27 Feb 2013 20:25:12 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2074#comment-4717 A reference I found useful was the (extensive) checklist provided on this website:

http://www.spiritual-research-network.com/abusequestionnaire.html

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Comment on What is spiritual abuse? by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/what-is-spiritual-abuse/#comment-4716 Wed, 27 Feb 2013 19:56:03 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2074#comment-4716 This lecture is a classic example of spiritual abuse. Contact me privately if you want my review of this lecture and why I say it is spiritually abusing to those who heard it:

Our Fellowship (2013)

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Comment on UBF in Newspapers – Canada, 1990 by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-in-newspapers-canada-1990/#comment-4670 Sat, 23 Feb 2013 13:42:17 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2044#comment-4670 My ubf shepherd didn’t want me to read this. Now the whole world can read it!

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Comment on UBF in Newspapers – Canada, 1990 by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/ubf-in-newspapers-canada-1990/#comment-4669 Sat, 23 Feb 2013 13:35:52 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2044#comment-4669 Interesting bit of karma, thanks to the internet:

If my memory serves me, the article above from 1990 is the clipping that was mailed to me from a family member. I remember some phrases were highlighted with yellow highlighter. Now, no one can take it away from me :)

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-4642 Thu, 21 Feb 2013 16:32:33 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-4642 Amazing grace

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-4640 Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:17:41 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-4640 mina,

“I FEEL THE SAME BUT PRAY TO BE FREE”.

I too will pray that you may be free. Bondage is the key problem of ubf, whose shepherds slowly bind up your life one decision at a time.

Jesus’ mission statement speaks about freedom, not bondage:

” 18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” 20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21 and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

Luke 4:18-21

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by mina http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-4639 Thu, 21 Feb 2013 13:36:16 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-4639 THANK YOU BRIAN YOU ARE RIGHT Christ IS THE TRUTH SO SHALL BE HIS SERVANT PROMOTE IT.THIS IS INDEED A DANGEROUS CULT THAT IS FOR SELF GAIN AND A WAY OF DICTATORSHIP.I DON’T FOR OTHERS BUT I PERSONAL SEE THAT THEY PLANT A SEED OF TRUST AND DEPENDENCE ON THE VICTIMS ‘MINDS THAT LEAVES THEM UNDECIDED AND FEELING THE DEED OF LOYALTY TO THEM.I FEEL THE SAME BUT PRAY TO BE FREE.I THINK THEY ARE A CULT FOR THEY CANT ACCEPT OTHER CHURCHES ‘TEACHING AND REGARD OUR LOCAL BELIEVERS AS FALSE CHRISTIANS.

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Comment on Skipping the Best Parts by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/skipping-the-best-parts/#comment-4627 Wed, 20 Feb 2013 19:19:40 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2028#comment-4627 So in the ubf mindset, the warning in verse 8 is ok to share: “If we claim to be without sin…” ubf does not claim to be without sin, so this is ok to them.

But the warning in verse 10 is not ok to the ubf mind: “If we claim we have not sinned…” ubf does claim they have not sinned because past abuses were just serving God by God’s anointed. So it is difficult to preach on this verse in a ubf setting.

I used to play this game, of course :) I would say “ubf is not without sin, all churches have problems.” At the same time I would also say “ubf has not sinned in the past, all victim stories have another side to the story”.

I didn’t realize the contradiction in those two lines of thought while I was praising God in ubf. The ubf mind is full of such contradictions but they can rarely see it. The further away from ubf I get, the more clearly I see these contradictions and false bible teaching.

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Comment on Skipping the Best Parts by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/skipping-the-best-parts/#comment-4626 Wed, 20 Feb 2013 19:10:32 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2028#comment-4626 Indeed. The fear of a ubf director/member is to walk into the light of truth. They fear the light of free thinking, which is one reason why they avoid the internet and email at all costs, especially websites of former members.

Verse 10 was skipped and says: “If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”

Ironically, a ubf director/member fears that if they admit they have sinned, they will dishonor God and bible study will have no place in their lives. But this is opposite of the reality. Admitting they’ve sinned is exactly what they must do. And by doing so the bible would not become irrelevant, but more relevant to their lives.

But it would also mean letting go of their ubf worldview (KOPHN), so they are afraid of doing it. I’ve seen this many times before actually. Verses that would be most helpful are skipped because they would be most painful to preach on.

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Comment on Skipping the Best Parts by Chris http://www.priestlynation.com/skipping-the-best-parts/#comment-4624 Wed, 20 Feb 2013 18:51:27 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2028#comment-4624 Good observation. Verses 5-10 almost sound like they have been written for UBF! Who has ears to hear will hear, but who does not want to hear conveniently skips the passage.

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Comment on We Should Not Forget by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/we-should-not-forget/#comment-4611 Tue, 19 Feb 2013 19:44:30 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2025#comment-4611 Prior discussion from 2005:

“While I agree that we should show respect for Regina’s family during this awful time of grief; I think we would do her and her family a great injustice to not speak of this tragedy again.

UBF is renowned for dismissing human suffering in every aspect. Regina’s death cannot be dismissed or ever forgotten.

I will never forget. I believe that every former UBF member should continue to speak out and expose every travisty that has continued to take place within UBF.

Certainly, other religious organizations have had their share of ministering to folks who suffer with mental illness. The big difference here (in this case) is that Regina was devoted to UBF. She gave away her youth and her life choices to serve the UBF mantra. What did UBF give to Regina? A big fat lie!!! The UBF leadership could not even share with their membership the true event of Regina’s passing. UBF pushed Regina to change her name, and struggle against her illness in silence.

This tragedy only spurs me on to continue to speak out against a represive, abusive cult. UBF youth claim that the “ministry” is changing for the better. Currently , I see NO glimmer of hope for UBF. The Chicago leadership cannot even tell the truth to their own membership about the passing of a precious, tender woman.

Sarah Barry and all of the current UBF shepherds who were responsible for directing the Thompson family, should be held directly accountable.

Perhaps, my words sound harsh here, but it is my opinion.”

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-4594 Mon, 18 Feb 2013 14:41:51 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-4594 One more thing mina, you mentioned:

“i am always guilt whaen i look back and think of the lies i ve told to fit into the system.”

Excessive guilt and telling lies to fit into a system are not signs of a Christian ministry. Those are red flag warnings that indicate the group is a cult.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-4593 Mon, 18 Feb 2013 14:29:11 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-4593 Hi mina, and thank you for expressing your thoughts. Yea, ubf is often seen as a mixed bag. Now that I’ve been away from ubf for 2 years, I can see the contradictions quite well.

For example, I hope you can see the contradictions you expressed here:

“they are excellent bible teachers with passion”

and

“missionaries want to run the natives lives and think that without obeying whatever they say you are doomed to hell and cant be blessed by God.”

Sure you were helped in some ways by ubf missionaries, as was I. But who can live with such a contradiction? Can a shepherd also be a dictator?

I have met several excellent bible teachers and Christian pastors. They make every effort to NOT run the lives of other people. Excellent bible teachers always encourage independent thought and personal exploration of your faith, never do excellent bible teachers demand such high obedience without your personal thoughts.

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Comment on Is UBF a Cult? by mina http://www.priestlynation.com/is-ubf-a-cult/#comment-4592 Mon, 18 Feb 2013 13:29:59 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=385#comment-4592 i am not sure of what to say myself,the organization helped me a lot i could ve dropped out of college and they made me realize who God is more than the church i grew up in.i became aware of the existence of Christ and learnt to appreciate him more.the problem i see in the church is dictatorship and promotion of human dependency for salvation.missionaries want to run the natives lives and think that without obeying whatever they say you are doomed to hell and cant be blessed by God.I myself want to leave the church too,i work with one of the missionaries and ve been appointed to go to a southkorean university as a missionary yet the living allowances are too small.they push me to go and says its God’s will for me to be undergo this.they view being in poverty as a way of learning God yet they cruise around in expensive vehicles and want us to see good life from them and criticize us for over dependence.and the other issue is in ubf you oppose the truth Of God you always lie to please the missionaries telling the truth is unheard of for they dont acept it.they like those who lie to please them.sisnce 2009 i ve been living in lies,creating them to please them and not God.i am always guilt whaen i look back and think of the lies i ve told to fit into the system.anyway they are excellent bible teachers with passion

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Comment on Reasons why I support same-sex marriage by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/reasons-why-i-support-same-sex-marriage/#comment-4575 Sun, 17 Feb 2013 19:04:07 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=1340#comment-4575 This book articulates my thoughts far better than I can:

Torn, by Justin Lee

“Justin Lee came to understand that both Christians and gays shared the same cultural dynamic. They both saw the world in terms of “Gays vs. Christians.” He realized that, “You had to pick one or the other, and whichever one you didn’t pick had to be squelched or hidden or forgotten.”

How could this dilemma be resolved?

Going to the Bible didn’t help Lee. He looked at the evidence carefully (and some of his insights and questions are quite good), but ultimately he found the evidence inconclusive. “I realized that I could easily make a clear, compelling argument for either position,” he discovered. Torn again.

However, when Justin Lee stepped back from these specific verses and asked the question about what the Bible taught as a whole, in the light of Jesus, he came to a different conclusion. Further study led him to believe that the “law of love” (as in Romans 13:8-10) should guide us, and Lee saw that his church had gotten this issue wrong.”

(Source: the Internet Monk review of the book Torn)

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Comment on How to Survive Marriage By Faith by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/how-to-survive-marriage-by-faith/#comment-4571 Sun, 17 Feb 2013 18:09:43 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2014#comment-4571 One of my friends messed up something in his MbF process. His dead dog training was to write down everything he did for every minute of every day. He had to turn in this report for many days.

Two other friends wanted to get married, but they screwed up royally by having a movie date. They had to leave UBF in order to get married because they were convinced they were supposed to be together. They are both still friends and still married to this day.

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Comment on How to Survive Marriage By Faith by briank http://www.priestlynation.com/how-to-survive-marriage-by-faith/#comment-4570 Sun, 17 Feb 2013 18:05:12 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2014#comment-4570 Believe it or not, I am serious. This post is not a joke. I am not being facetious, but recommending my best advice for getting through marriage by faith. Are there better ways? I hope there are.

In fact, everything here is what I actually did. If I had not done such things, I would not have survived marriage by faith.

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Comment on How to Survive Marriage By Faith by Joshua http://www.priestlynation.com/how-to-survive-marriage-by-faith/#comment-4568 Sun, 17 Feb 2013 17:56:56 +0000 http://www.priestlynation.com/?p=2014#comment-4568 Hi Brian, are you being serious, or tongue-in-cheek? I can’t quite tell.

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