Well amen to that :)

The most tragic statement that I had read said that those who perished in the ship paid for their obedience with their lives.

Also, thank you for drawing myself and maybe others to the actual article once more. As I read Joe’s references to Korean airline matters I was quickly reminded of the Sewol ship. What a mess indeed! Also, I have no idea about the information from western media reports, but the ownership and operations were run by none other than members of a cult who had no care for the people on board. The government is still attempting to peacefully take the owner (leader) into custody, but have not managed to locate him due to the cult members loyalty.

LOL. Changing? Hardly.

I am thinking of creating a video blog in the new year, inspired by John: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G7JN8IYriU

What if we had a blog where people could only submit comments via video? Or better yet, maybe we could hold some round-table discussions on a topic and post the videos as “featured articles” for people to comment on via normal blog or video blog? Thoughts? Ideas? Maybe then we could “look each other eye to eye and be changed by each other” :)

it’s really nice to see how people get know and communicate with each other. Although I’m not good in English, I hope that I can communicate with all of you, too. My dear sisters were reading this blog and recommended it. At first, I thought that I don’t have to visit this site, but now, I really regret to have not look for this blog 1 year ago. I tried to read all articles in here but that will take much time I guess. The articles are really great and full of grace. They give me strength to handle with problems and questions that I had and could never solve alone at myself. Thank God, that there are people who are willing to share his word!

My daughter Curie told me about this site and recommended to check it out. Very exciting! I have always cherished what you were doing, and I even more love your inspiration on this.

Thanks for the comments about BFriends sports. I stand corrected!! May I avoid sweeping generalizations in the future. But really, who isn’t a Cubs fan in UBF? Let’s see about baseketball in the near future.

Who’s the next ‘rope-a-dope’ boxer in UBF? ^_^

I love “BASEBALL!!!~~~~” and I used to play it all the time.
I’m dying to play baseball one day.

Maybe it might be a good idea to make UBF baseball, football, or baseketball fellowship, and
each chapter(or united chapters) may be able to play against each other for fellowship once in a while.

Americans in UBF aside have to remember how little connection most internationals have to some of the American cultural tropes we use. I found that, unfortunately, no UBF member really likes baseball, except a few who like different teams. No UBF member actually rooted for the US soccer team in the recent world cup. Those that did found themselves surrounded by beer-swilling, expletive spouting, but not unpleasant salty types. Perhaps, these were the people to whom the apostles were sent. (Mt 11:19) Also, no one in UBF likes the ‘gentle, meek, and mild’ version of the deity that is lionized by many churches here in the States.

Americans like myself have really had to struggle to let go of baseball, and it’s not easy. I pray that God will help me let go of some of the cultural stuff (incessant movie watching) that does not help co-workers. I’m not saying I’ve won this battle, but I’m just putting it out there. I hope this helps people. God bless the mission-centered folks out there.

Thank you for sharing your experience about the term, “coworker”~~
I’m a strong opponent for calling someone’s spouse “coworker”~~

Calling someone you have respect for “shepherd” sounds just fine with me although I don’t use that term, either :)

I don’t like calling my wife “coworker” because it sounds like
treating my wife like someone I work with at a workplace. I never did and I will always call my wife “dear Mary, or my wife or honey~~”

Yes! It is awkward and I propose that we don’t use “coworker” for calling
our spousees.

What I never liked was, when spouses used “my coworker”. When I first heard from my first bible teacher that he wanted to help his coworker, I imagined that he wanted to study Bible with his colleague in his office. Only later I found out that he was talking about his wife who was in spiritual difficulties.

Point well taken. I need to be clearer in my communication. Thank God for this forum where I can learn clear communication especially through my mistakes. Joe’s writing is an excellent example of clarity.

Paul: First of all, good to see you here! i know that an excellent article by Joe is in the pipeline addressing some of your issues. However, in my opinion, it’s always worth to look at similar issues from different perspectives, even more so if it contains your personal experiences. Would you be willing to give us a piece of your mind by contributing an article?

When I first came to the ministry, it made me mad. There were some shepherds (the ones who a bit more huffy about NOT being called shepherd) that I would call by their first names on purpose to make them mad (I was a real gem back then).
But after time, I came to understand the role of a shepherd more and got a bit used to it. As a matter of fact, there are some people don’t feel comfortable calling them by their first name because of the respect I hold for them. Maybe I will just start calling them Mr and Mrs…

Here are my lingering issues with the title thing though:

1) I don’t think it should be used when non-UBF people are around, specifically in public and around people who are new to the ministry. The fact that it is such a stumbling block for some people and makes them want to leave before they even experience one to one Bible study is sad. The problem may be theirs, granted, but still we have to help people wherever they are.

2) I don’t like when we call people shepherd right out of the gate. As in – a year into Bible study and we are calling people the same title as someone who has been teaching the Bible to people for 25 years. I think if we have titles, they should be reserved for elders and people who have truly devoted their life to gospel mission, not a young person who said one time they might possibly want to teach the Bible someday. I understand the argument that we want to plant vision in them, but I think the negative consequences for other potential new people outweigh the positives for that one person.

Anyway, that is my tuppence worth… (I will use the British version, considering I am responding to Paul’s comment)

My experience echoes Joe’s ;) My wife and I experienced our 16th anniversary last week. I can still say marrying her was the best decision I made for my practical life. Being that she grew up British, we do have some culture gap. Our children even adopt a British accent from time to time! I must say the British ideas are sometimes vastly different from my good ole’ American country ideas. But we’ve both grown through these differences, perhaps more than we could separately.

I would add to Joe’s comments that in my viewpoint, there never was or is anything to “fight for” in regard to changing our ministry. Koreans adapted to Americans and Americans adapted to Koreans (yes I love kimchee!). I can’t speak to the German/Korean or Russian/Korean or British/Korean experience though.

One reason I’ve remained commited to our ministry is that it is always changing. The Catholic church I grew up in, however, seemed to be stuck in the 15th century and never changing.

Also, in regard to your comment, “It never was a good idea to call someone shepherd – of course we should be a shepherd but as a form of address? No. It is odd and always was odd.” In my opinion, calling someone shepherd is not odd. Our American culture is full of secular titles actually, like my “bff so and so.” The Bible is full of examples of people having new names (like Levi>Matthew), shepherd/sheep illustrations (“Be shepherds…”) and having a new identity in Christ (“The old is gone…”). So from a Biblical context, I’ve never thought this was strange. I don’t associate this practice with Korean culture. In my mind, this came from a desire to help people remember their new identity in Christ. The Salvation Army does a similar thing. And I always appreciate the reminder that I should be a shepherd, as you say. In any case, I’m fine with dropping the titles for the sake of conversation. In my professional life, I’ve never been a fan of titles anyway.

Some readers might feel uncomfortable with the bluntness of your comment. But I would remind them that open communication does get uncomfortable sometimes, especially when people have been holding their tongues and keeping quiet for long periods of time. If this blog is going to be a place where real cross-cultural and cross-generational exchange takes place, there will be moments of tension. And moments of grace and forgiveness. We are all going to have to learn to listen to one another and pay attention to the substance of what is being said, and not simply react to the *manner* in which it is said.

It’s hard to believe, but Sharon and I are approaching our 20th (!) wedding anniversary. We are both American, so no language or culture barrier there. We have also recently learned that our personalities (as measured on the standard five-dimensional model used by psychologists) are very similar across all five dimensions. But as we know, men and women come from Mars and Venus, respectively, so communication between us has been difficult at times. It’s only fairly recently that I’ve begun to actually listen to what she says rather than the way that she says it. When she said something that I didn’t like, I would respond with a comment like this: “You didn’t say that in the right way. I won’t listen or respond to that until you say it nicely.” Now I realize that this was my clever way of sidestepping painful issues that I didn’t want to talk about. By constantly changing the subject from *what* was being said to *how* it was being said, I was able to cling to my denial while claiming to stand on the high moral ground. I had to repent of that, and I still do. Basically, I was refusing to communicate with her unless she adopted my own preferred style of communication first. I was forcing her to become like me, rather than being willing to become like her, or meeting her somewhere in the middle. Which is the exact opposite of what Jesus Christ did for us in the mystery of the Incarnation.

Politeness and gentleness in speech is a virtue. But honesty and bluntness are also virtues, especially in places like Britain and Germany.

You raised a good question: “I’ve never worked out why bright young American students in the 1970’s, 80’s and 90’s did not say anything at the time.” Actually, we did ask those questions. One of the first questions that I asked when I started to interact with UBF people is, “Why do they always put titles in front of people’s names?” The answer that I got was, “This is the way that we show respect to one another.” That was an honest answer, and I accepted it as such. And because God was calling me to participate in this ministry depite these cultural differences, I was able to accept and adapt. We have all heard reports of how missionaries came to America and adapted themselves to difficult and uncomfortable situations here to serve American students. Those stories are true. But there were countless ways in which Americans adapted themselves to Korean culture in order to remain in this ministry. Those who were able to adapt did so. Those who were unable to adapt eventually left.

Now about your second question, “I wonder why early generation Americans did not mention this or fight for change earlier?” Those of us who started this website did not do so to fight for change. UBF has always been changing in one way or another, and it will continue to do so. This ministry was started by the Holy Spirit and has been evolving in this complex, fallen world. There is no way that I can change it. If I try hard to change it into something that pleases me, other people will be displeased. We are generationally and culturally diverse, and people of all kinds will need to understand and adapt to one another if we are to hang together and maintain unity-in-diversity. I cannot change UBF, and even if I could, I would not know how to make the right choices. But God knows what he is doing.

As we learn to better communicate with one another — and as our communication is mediated by the grace of Jesus — I believe that our ministry will automatically and organically move in a direction that pleases God. Open communication, mediated by Christ, is the primary work of the Holy Spirit that established the church in Acts chapter 2.

On this website, I would prefer that people not use titles like “Dr” and “Shepherd.” But if some people want to use them, we will not require them to stop. We are all friends here. If some people are unable to take off their UBF hats to join in the conversation, then we will let them keep those UBF hats on. As Mother Barry (oops, I used a title!) said, we are going to take people as they are.

Yet what seems really long overdue is not Koreans waking up to this but nationals. It was hard for KAL to wake up to the issues and took a crash or two. It would be bizarre if an American co-pilot adopted Korean forms of communication when he joined the plane. Yet actually this is what nationals have done for years – and dare I say it American nationals in particular. I’ve never quite worked out why bright young American students in the 1970’s, 80’s and 90’s did not say anything at the time. It never was a good idea to call someone shepherd – of course we should be a shepherd but as a form of address? No. It is odd and always was odd.
I wonder why early generation Americans did not mention this or fight for a change earlier?

Perhaps some feel the plane has crashed and we need to wake up to this cross cultural problem. Ironically the inconsistency and mixed message is actually from the nationals who are now starting to ask these questions not having fought for this sooner. Why 20-25 years late?

1) Avoid acronyms. If you must use them, spell the words out and put the abbreviation in parenthesis. For example, does PDI above mean Personal Data Interchange or what? I spent the whole time reading the post trying to figure that out…(as a computer geek I must watch this myself closely!)

2) Avoid vague pronouns. Mention people and places by name instead of saying “he” did this or “they” want that, or “it” is good. This creates a lot of confusion in blogging especially.

Hey Ben, Never heard of PDI, but I’m obviously way way low. Need to think about how that works. Love the Led Zeppelin reference, though non-rock people may wonder if Page and Plant are Christians.

Hi Mother Barry, Thanks for taking off your HAT, especially for me!

Hi Joe, Regarding Dante’s “Abandon All Hope All Who Enter Here,” Paul Zahl, in his great book “Grace in Practice,” said that anyone who preaches a sermon without Grace should post that sign at the entrance of their church on Sun! Funny but true.

I think that comment subscription surely prompts one who made comments, to check on others who commented.

As a citizen of the United States, I have a low PDI so I teach better in a low PDI context. Students who ask questions and want clarification in class will help me teach more effectively and efficiently.

In a ministry, then, we must ask the question, “Is it beneficial to hold to a high PDI in a low PDI culture?” Consider a mentoring relationship in a low PDI context–there will be inherent respect for the mentor, but because of the low PDI there will be more transparency and an “open door” relationship. A real friendship will blossom. On the other hand, assuming a high PDI in a low PDI context will foster deceit on the part of the mentee and “younger” people. There will be a communication breakdown the likes of which Robert Plant and Jimmy Page could not imagine. Conversely, someone with a culturally low PDI ministering to a high PDI congregation should also minister in a high PDI context, even if it makes him or her uncomfortable. For example, a low PDI person may not like titles. If that person is ministering in a PDI context, he or she will have to get used to the title and get used to calling others by their titles for the sake of the gospel (“I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some” 1 Cor. 9:22).

To sum up, I would argue for a contextual PDI in ministry. (Assuming everyone understands that God, of course, works in spite of our PDI conditioning)

For basic communication, practice SLANT (HT: Maria)

I will work on a system for comment subscription.

Understanding the different roles of order/hierarchy in Eastern and Western cultures is going to be key for this website to work. It is my hope and prayer that someday people of all ranks — new Bible students, committed members of UBF, fellowship leaders, senior missionaries, chapter directors and senior staff — will be able to communicate freely, learn from one another and become friends. As you pointed out to me in a personal conversation last October, the gospel does not simply wipe out all ranks, officies and social positions. There are real differences among us that should be acknowledged and respected. And yet there is a sense in which we are all equals in Christ. Everyone who is in Christ Jesus — from the youngest baby to the most elderly elder — is a member of God’s family by grace alone. It would be nice to see some of our leaders take off their leader/shepherd hats and join in the discussions simply as individual Christians. Our spiritual relationships with one another should be mediated by Jesus Christ, not by UBF or any organization.

That is the primary reason why I decided to start this website as a strictly private venture, with no official connection to UBF and no direct oversight by UBF leaders. I am not going outside the usual channels to cause trouble or to be subversive. I am doing so because I hope that people who come here can truly put aside their organizational affiliation and talk as brothers and sisters in Christ. Because UBF is not the center of our spiritual lives; Jesus Christ is the center.

According to Dante, the entrace to hell bears the inscription

ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE

Perhaps an appropriate inscription for UBFriends would be

TAKE OFF YOUR UBF HATS YE WHO ENTER HERE

I understand that it can be extremely difficult and awkward for ministry leaders to put aside their titles and organizational mindset and have open, honest, give-and-take relationships with people. But isn’t that the essence of the incarnation, of what Jesus has done for us, according to Philippians 2:5-11?

And it will be awkward for young people — especially second gen’s — to speak up and share their honest opinions in a forum where they know that their elders and perhaps even their parents might read it. There is a very active blogging subculture among our second gens, but many of their forums are kept private and off limits to anyone they do not trust. Although I do not expect or want UBFriends to replace those blogs, I do hope that everyone can gradually widen their circles of trust.

In every ministry, there are sensitive matters that cannot and should not be discussed in public so that individuals will not be hurt. But trying to handle everything in private is not a good idea either, because bad things tend to grow in the dark. Gossip, slander, judging one another, etc. Things that can be brought into the light should be. God is light, and his people must walk in the light.

Rather than first approaching all of our UBF leaders and explaining to them what I am trying to do, I have decided to just go ahead and launch this website so that people can actually see what happens here, instead of talking endlessly about all the hypothetical problems that might arise. If this experiment works, it works. If it fails — if people don’t want to come here and talk, or if it degenerates into godless complaining and arguing — then we can just shut the website down, and no harm is done. There is no administrative burden or liability placed on our leaders who are already very busy and are unable to take on new initiatives right now.

If UBF leaders feel that it is too awkward for them to post their opinions here in public, then at the very least I hope that they will visit the website anyway to see firsthand what people are saying and thinking. The honest discussions that take place here could become a valuable resource for UBF leaders, to help them to understand our members and make wise decisions regarding the future of our ministry, because the decisions they make do affect all of us.

For a while I’ve realized that we in ubf have cross-cultural and cross-generational difficulties and differences. But Henoch enlightened me to a third difficulty: cross-hierarchical, which might be an area of highest emotional sensitivity among us, thus causing misunderstanding most easily, leading to a “breakdown” in communication, which sadly has happened too often in various places over the years.

This difficulty is especially so because Eastern cultures is influenced by Confucius, who emphasizes strict order in society. Someone told me that in many churches through out Asia, the senior pastor is functionally a king, whose word and directives are virtually law, which cannot be questioned. Perhaps, this might be an area where we need to prayerfully thread and pray for the Holy Spirit’s guidance and openness. Any thoughts about this sensitive area?

Joe, would you know how to set it up so that whenever someone makes a comment, I would get an my email notifying me?

Bill

Pray for me to keep silent and listen and learn mutual understanding.

Understanding a culture is an important issue.

However, there is much more important issue that needs to be considered,
which I believe is mutual understanding mediated by love and respect.

Based on my limited experience, we’ll never be free from conflicting with people. It is nobody’s fault. It’s about mutual understanding.

I do believe that our church (UBF)consists of many people who are mature and generous enough to embrace all kinds of different opinions. So, I recommend all of you to freely speak to senior people on whatever you think is true unless it conflicts the truth of the gospel. :)~~~

Let’s all pray that we have a mutual understanding regardless of age, nationality, and gender. God bless you all!!!

Personally, I’m focusing on mutual understanding more than anything else these days. I decide to listen and be silent until the
and I learned

I agree with the four steps laid out in your first paragraph. In my time in UBF, I have improved my ability to understand my co-workers, although that is obviously an ongoing process. I recently experienced the exact kind of communication problem as occurred in Gladwell’s Korean airline example. During a church event, someone asked me to do something, but it took me a while to understand that the person had made a request, because it sounded like an off-hand comment. I had to interpret it as a request.

I also have to work at understanding what I think and feel and then expressing myself in a clear and sensitive way. I sometimes err on the side of meekness and silence, partly because I do not put in the effort of thinking deeply, arriving at responsible opinions, and articulating them in constructive ways.

My comment, overall, is that communication is HARD WORK–especially across cultures! I hope that this website will constitute one step toward a richer, more loving community.

Thanks. I’m glad to BFriends with all of you!

I have sometimes felt reluctant to communicate and speak exactly how I felt or what I thought with some senior members in my UBF chapter, assuming that I would be misunderstood or my feelings would be misconstrued. However, I have found that whenever I just went ahead and said what I wanted to say, the result was always favorable and it always led to strengthening the relationship and the ministry. I think this reluctance is also sometimes felt by the senior member for the same reason. In the end, I have learned that I really need to trust my brother’s love, then deep communication can occur.

Blessings!

You Be Friends is cute, and this website is a great idea, and this very first blog post is quite relevant. Being agreeable while disagreeing is a necessary foundation of relationship and community building, I think.

I’ve shared often with others that the person I most often disagree with on earth is the one I love the most–my own dear wife. Thus, I realize that true unity is not unity in conformity, but unity in diversity, just like the Trinity, for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinctly different, yet perfectly united.

A Christian friend shared with me that a way to connect deeply with ourselves, with others, and to let God speak to us meaningfully is SASHET–Sad, Angry, Scared, Happy, Excited, Tender. By honestly speaking and sharing these emotions and sentiment in our brokenness, frailty and vulnerability, and with trust and respect, enables us to have a heart to heart relationship with one other in the Lord.

If there is anyway that I can be of help, do let me know.

God bless you.

Ben