Comments on: Stuck At The Wall (Part 2)

By: Dr. Bill

Sun, 19 Sep 2010 00:07:02 +0000

Christian, in reading your post I am so reminded of Jesus when He went through His walls- Hebrews 5:7-9:
7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.”

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By: Richard

Sat, 11 Sep 2010 19:30:24 +0000

think Christian brings up a really important point. People grow through the Walls in their lives, but it could just as well be the case that they end up unable to break through the Wall and instead end up quitting, or losing from, their struggle: prodigal sons that never come back; elder sons that stay bitter. This makes me think about things like predestination.

But it also makes me wonder in general about the problems of conflicting perceptions of problems – of how: 1) we see our own Wall (and what we think we need to resolve it), versus how: 2) others see our Wall and define our problems – both of whom may equally invoke the authority of the Bible and prayer and God, and both of whom may have clear and confident consciences. I think of a number of people who struggled with their Wall in ways that were not satisfactory to another group of people, even when they ended up fully at peace with where they ended up – though still to the condemnation of the other group.

From this kind of view of things, both sides seem right in some ways and wrong in others. Sometimes, all of this seems to me like a purely human, fallible activity – just something we have always done and always will do. Maybe the Walls that work out for the best are those solutions that just happen to match both sides, and the healthiest and happiest people are those who can bring this about – whatever Struggle or Community they may be defining themselves against.

I like most the idea that we should each keep struggling/praying with ourselves not to betray our own consciences and integrity, while still being caring, communicative, and adaptive – leaving breathing room and humility for the possibility that both us were wrong. Then the person in front of us can matter more than the project, and THEN any real mutual influence can continue to occur. As we continue to develop and debate our ideas of the best way forward, we need to simultaneously build and or deepen (and find refuge in!) our network of those we care about and have both commitment and influence in. If one has that much… this, to me, is a blessed life.

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By: christian misurac

Thu, 02 Sep 2010 19:55:31 +0000

Joe,
Thank-you for your article. As I mentioned in my comment to your part one, I have experience with the wall. We have met on more than one occasion and I am very thankful for him because without those experiences I would be less of Christian (one who truly depends on God for his/her salvation). I have one comment mostly in response to your last paragraph. I agree with this statement in part: “But in this stage of apparent weakness, you are actually getting stronger”. In some cases I believe that is true, but the story doesn’t always have a happy ending. Not everyone comes back to the basics of the gospel. Sometimes the wall drives people to quit: quit church, quit serving, quit praying, quit studying or even quit Christianity. I can think of five people off of the top of my head that walked away from the wall (in various forms) instead of going through it. Granted we are not at the end of the story yet and hopefully God is working on them in his perfect way for his perfect time. This is my prayer for my friends. The great thing about Francis Schaeffer is that by God’s grace, instead of becoming a practicing agnostic he became a genuine truth seeker. It is only when the wall has this effect that a person is really getting stronger. Maybe I am generalizing your definition of “wall” too much. Maybe it isn’t a wall if people don’t actually get through it. I am not sure.

The point I am trying to make is that as an observer and even friend of others it is hard to tell if the Spirit is moving someone to push through the wall or if they have already given up the fight. I have seen it go both ways. What I have learned as a wall participant and a wall observer is that the best thing I can do for others who are struggling deeply with faith is to PRAY for them from my heart. Not a rebuking prayer, but a real one of deep compassion. This has gotten easier to do since I had become “spiritually difficult” and felt judged by others. God humbled me. Also grace, love, the encouragement to study the bible deeply and to pour out their heart to God in testimonies or some other way of communicating to Him. This requires us to accept people just as they are without expectations so they have a healthy environment to struggle and heal in. When a person really wants to get through the wall, I believe these are the things that will help them. At least these are the things that P. Ron and others did for me. And besides, it is only a matter of time before it is my turn with the wall again and then I will be the one who needs lots of graceâ˜º.

I hope that makes sense and is relevant to your essay. Please let me know if I misunderstood anything.

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By: David

Thu, 02 Sep 2010 12:58:14 +0000

Joe, thank you very much for this clearification – regarding basic teachings of the Gospel. It is very-very reasonably! 100% – our life is in Christ and with Christ and by Christ from beginning to the end. Amen.
Let me suggest 3 more places. I’m not sure but will express my thoughts.
1-st one is already rised up Luke 9:23 – ” Then he said to them all: “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. “. The wall could be found between “deny himself and take up his cross daily” and “and follow me”
2-nd is Mk. 4:15-20 – the parable about farmer and seed. The wall is between 3-rd and 4-th kind of soil.
3-rd is John 15. The wall could be found before “remaining” in Jesus

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By: Joe Schafer

Thu, 02 Sep 2010 12:43:33 +0000

The clearest account that I can see in the New Testament is the Apostle Peter. Jesus’ conversation with him in John chapter 21 is a beautiful example of honesty leading to spiritual breakthrough.
(I think that the breakthrough took place on the day of Pentecost, when Peter and the whole church were empowered by the Holy Spirit.) Another example could be Paul’s struggle with sin in Romans chapter 7. In John chapter 3, it appears that Nicodemus hit The Wall and could make no further progress in his spiritual life without divine power and rebirth. Breaking through The Wall always involves accepting or re-accepting the basic teachings of the gospel: that human effort is ultimately futile, and we are saved purely by grace through faith. The transformation occurs by dying with Christ and rising with Christ.

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By: David

Thu, 02 Sep 2010 12:03:01 +0000

yes, thanks. and what about New Testimant?

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By: Joe Schafer

Thu, 02 Sep 2010 11:43:24 +0000

Examples of hitting The Wall (in its many forms) are found throughout the accounts of Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Elijah, Job, Hannah, etc.

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By: David

Thu, 02 Sep 2010 11:26:15 +0000

And could the examples or some links for the Wall be found in the Scriptures?

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By: David

Thu, 02 Sep 2010 11:21:25 +0000

So, the Wall is something common for Christians. Not just for Christians in UBF but for Christians of most (or all?) churches and organizations. So could we make from it two conclusions? –
1) Church or organization could not be blamed or consider as something not right, while it’s members meet the Wall.
2) Church or organization (even if is very cool church or organization) should be ready for their members meeting the Wall and helping them to overcome it

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By: Shelly

Thu, 02 Sep 2010 03:09:44 +0000

Growing up, I feel like I was always taught that spiritual maturity comes when you want to serve God and other people as your purpose in life and . . . , but I had never heard in mention as “how transparent we are” which I now believe is a very important part and insight into it.

Is it safe to say that each time we hit a “spiritual wall” and get through it, we are one step closer to spiritual maturity?

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By: Joe Schafer

Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:56:02 +0000

Richard, your encouraging words mean a lot to me. Your final paragraph, “Sometimes I wonder…” is spot on. After Francis Schaeffer came through his crisis of faith, he was a changed man who truly empathized with others’ doubts, objections, and crises. He took people’s views very seriously. This empathy and understanding shined through in his writings and lectures, which is one reason why so many young people responded to him. He began to treat the Other as a person, not a project.

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By: Richard A. Choi

Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:19:26 +0000

“By 1951, Schaeffer’s intellectual honesty forced him to return to agnosticism and re-examine the foundations of his faith. He went back to the Bible to investigate whether the gospel that he had embraced many years earlier was in fact true. What he found was startling. He discovered once again that God’s word was true and developed a new confidence in Scripture. And he experienced a genuine personal rebirth. Prayer became much more real to him. An inexplicable flood of joy, thanks and praise overflowed from his heart, which he expressed in poetry and song.”

“If you are going through The Wall, it may appear to people around you that you have become spiritually weak or unfaithful. You may be misunderstood or criticized by well-meaning Christians (think of Job’s friends). People may whisper about you and say that you are “becoming difficult.” But in this stage of apparent weakness, you are actually getting stronger. God is working to bring you to a better understanding of who you are, so that you can understand him better and experience a more authentic personal relationship with him.”

How moving this is, Dr. Joe! You remind me that doubt can be an important pathway – an opportunity – to a deeper, renewed understanding of our first faith – instead of a reason to become more pained and disconnected from others.

Sometimes I wonder if we too quickly expect certain milestones of faith to be reached in our (and other people’s) lives – on a more or less identical timescale – at the cost of depth and, later, empathy for the Other’s perspective (those not of our fold). Without the doubt that comes from sincerely empathizing with how our fellow human beings live their lives – who live with their own spectrum of irresponsibility to goodness and integrity – I wonder if we too readily dismiss everything about the Other to be less responsible in lifestyle, less intelligent, less aware of the pains and joys in life, than we of faith.

Anyways, thanks for your sincere and encouraging posts. I’m ever a faithful reader.

Richard Choi

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