Again, you’re trying to shift the blame towards my chapter director and away from Samuel Lee, claiming that Lee’s arbitrary training was more “fun”. After all the testimonies I read about Samuel Lee, I understand that Lee was way more evil than my chapter director. Just read the 1976 letter to understand. Telling an adult man to get perms may sound like fun. Telling people to show each others underwear or telling a young man to have eyelid surgery sounds less funnier. Telling a woman to abort her child is not funny at all any more. Telling people to divorce just because the partner left UBF is not fun either. I repeat, Samuel Lee was much worse than my chapter director. Most of all, he was the role model for my chapter director and the other directors. May you recall that time as “fun,” but there were so many who don’t think so.

“I’m pretty sure you won’t like me saying this, but this is gradually changing in some chapters”

Why shouldn’t I like this? I appretiate that it is happening and I’m pretty sure it is true – it is clearly what is to be expected if I’m right in my opinion that Samuel Lee was the driving force behind the abuse in UBF. Because of that, certainly, since he died, many things have become better. UBF has also become much more inhomogeneous than in the time when everything was under his control and everybody feared him and tried to copy him as closely as possible. It seems now there are chapters like yours that changed pretty much, a few chapters are still the same and the majority is in some kind of transition. I don’t want to dispute that.

But if you want to change you must know the direction, you must first reveal and expose very clearly and sharply what was wrong in the past. This has not so much to do with blaming people of the past, but with diagnosing the cause of the problem. You as doctor should know how important the proper diagnosis is if you want to cure an illness. It also will not help if you cure, say, Cholera, blaming the people for being too uncleanly, when the real cause is a contaminated well in their neigborhood.

I still cannot follow your connecting of being spiritual with being unpredictable, Ben. For instance, when Martin Luther started to live by the Spirit, and started to live without fear, his behavior became predictable. He even said himself: “I am standing here. I cannot do otherwise.” In the Bible, the believer is compared with a strong tree that is standing still, and the unbeliever with grass that is moving with the wind.

If you had said that spiritual people should be more creative, imaginative, visionary, I would have agreed. But more unpredictable? I still think that’s the wrong word. A spiritual mature Christian acts reasonably and for me that includes a certain amount of predictability, and not unpredictabilty.

Predictability is not something bad. We rely on the predictability of God’s nature: “As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease.” The opposite of predictability is chaos.

I think God’s nature is a good mix of predictability and chaos. God gives us certain freedom, but also certain rules and principles. Physics also shows this duality of nature. Quantum physics shows that not everything is predictable. But on the other hand, nature is not completely unpredictable either, and nobody would appretiate such a nature. So I don’t think it’s right to say “unpredictability” is better than “predictability”. There must be predictability in certain areas, and unpredictability in other areas. In physics, the macroscopic things (trajectory of the earth) are pretty predictable, the microscopic things unpredictable (trajectory of an electron). So should it be in life. In following your big principles and life events you should be predicable. I should not suddenly change my mind about my wife and divorce, just because it’s sometimes boring and predictable to be together with the same person. However, I can certainly surprise my wife with many little things.

But certainly your chapter director trying to seemingly whimsically and arbitrarily acting as though he has absolute control your marriage is very very unfortunate and totally uncalled for. I’m pretty sure you won’t like me saying this, but this is gradually changing in some chapters, though surely not in all chapters.

In sharp contrast to God’s immutability, then I think of people as inclining toward boring predictabality. But I believe that the more a Christian lives by the Spirit, the more they will live without fear, and the more unpredictable they will be, since they are willing to give up their control (over their own life and others and church), and allow God to do His thing, which will rarely ever be something that we human beings can ever predict.

I probably hate boring things just as much as you do. My first impulse to run away from UBF was at my first sogam meeting where four or five people in a row shared nearly the same sogam, even repeating literal sentences from the Sunday message. That kind of boring and predictable behavior is awful, I agree.

However, I don’t understand why you detest predictability in gerneral. I think one of the most important and comforting characterizations of God is that He is faithful. He does not change His principles. In many ways, he is predictable, and that sets Him apart from the Gods of other religions who were always considered to be capricious.

James 1 puts it this way: “Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.”

Particularly, His love to us is eternal and never changing. In that way, it is predictable. Our God made conventants with us. A covenant implies that you behave in a predictable manner.

Even in monotheistic religions, you see the difference if you contrast the God of the Bible with the unpredictable, arbitrary God of the Koran where believers can never be sure of their salvation, even if they pray 5 times a day and do all other required things, because their God is so sovereign that he can do whatever he wants. He is not obliged to save anybody. However, our God voluntarily chose to enter a coventant with us sinful humans. That is the greatness of the Christian religion.

From this fundamental character of God, some principles for Christian living follow immediately: We should also be faithful, we should keep integrity, we should not randomly change our mind. “Let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes ‘ or ‘No, no ‘; anything beyond these is of evil.” You cannot say one day “yes” and the other day “no” just to not be so boring and predictable.

I am writing about this in my 3rd book. The epic life does include an epic attempt to obey the Law. The journey gets really fruitful and exciting only when epic obedience gives way to epic surrender.

There is SO much more to our epic journey following Christ! Far too many people however, stay in the immature obedience entanglement, and only leave part of their life to discover the rest.

For example, Friday meetings were SO BORING. So we tended to think about other things (like my virtual dating game…) One time, while making a diagram on the movable chalkboard, our Korean director inadvertently draw a diagram of a large p*n*s and balls… he was trying to describe some great spiritual truth…but the point didn’t reach some of the audience…

Should I live by principles?

“I have always made a rather bold claim: I do not live by principles. But really, isn’t this just another principle? Lately I’ve become keenly aware of my negative attitude torward principles, education, academics, philosophy, religion, doctrine and even theology. I have tried to live a Christian life free of such things. But I have found that I am now on an island by myself, so to speak.”

“Why do I need to struggle so hard to re-invent Christianity? Christianity was established long ago. I really just need to discover it. I am starting to realize in a big way that Christian life is not about submitting to a particular church’s rules or inventions. Christian life is (and always has been) a journey. It is a journey of faith, a journey with fellow believers and a journey toward a glorious meeting with Jesus Christ my Lord! This journey has been taken up many a time before me. I am realizing I need to respect those journeys and races of faith run before me.”

“Developing discernment is a companion of humility because we feel awkwardly suspended in mid-air and our only hope is the Spirit, other discernment-oriented friends, and the Scriptures. Discernment is a community quest while I can follow directions all day long all by myself. Discernment is genuinely creative and, when matured, is called wisdom. Direction-giving tends toward boredom.”

Thanks, Joe for the great post on discernment: “I think leaders and people prefer direction-giving because it eliminates fear and offers the illusion of control. Everybody wants a playbook. Discernment, according to Scot McKnight, requires both courage and careful thought. Why courage? Discernment allows us to explore unknown territories of the soul and life. We can venture into those sometimes frightening areas not mapped out by the professional direction-givers. There are no playbooks for a very large percentage of life.”

That’s why one of my favorite quotes is by GK Chesterton (which probably upsets some people, to put it mildly :-): “I owe my success to having listened respectfully to the very best advice, and then going away and doing the exact opposite.” Perhaps I might call this discernment!

“For all our teaching about the accessibility of the Bible to the common person and the compassionate, illuminating ministry of the Spirit to light Scripture up for ordinary folk, leaders seem intent on spelling the Bible out, making it clear, answering the burning questions, thus fostering a codependency in biblical, theological and spiritual issues. To be proficient at giving biblical directions is no gift to people. Directions require no thinking, just compliance.”

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2013/09/06/discernment/

Some great quotes from that article that I just love:

“I have long thought that the #1 factor in bringing about theological change is that “life happens”–new experiences that cannot be held in old containers.”

“I discovered there really were other honest ways to read the Bible. I walked away from that meeting knowing that one of the hell-bound liberal Bible scholars I had been warned about for years, was in every right and best way, my brother in Christ.”

Obedience means “compliance with an order, request, or law or submission to another’s authority.”

The obedience that comes from faith, then is submission to Jesus’ authority and Lordship. The problems seem to arise when other people put their litmus tests on my submission.

For example, I do not attend church on Sunday. I don’t have a morning prayer time. I don’t have a scheduled bible study time. But I claim to be in submission to Jesus and obeying His promptings of when to say and what to say and how to say it.

The new wine from Jesus cannot be contained in the old wineskin of rules-based obedience.

It seems however, that just as children need rules-based obedience for a time, Christ-followers seem to start out with rules-based obedience. I’m ok with that. But we simply must grow beyond such types of obedience if we ever want to mature.

* Principles are meant to be used as guides, not as a replacement for sanity and reason. Some principles can be broken, but there must always be good and sufficient reasons to break principles.

* Most principles have exceptions. When principles are formulated, sometimes the exceptions are explicitly mentioned, sometimes not. The absence of explicit mentioning of exceptions (usually for more brevity, clarity and emphasis of the principle) does not mean that no exceptions exist and the principle should be considered an absolute.

* Usually more than one principle applies and sometimes principles can contradict each other. You need wisdom and discernment to find out which principles apply and whether maybe there is an exceptional case or another principles is higher and more important in the specific case.

This is a good example, however the wooden/literal/uncritical obedience in that case was towards 1 Timothy 5:19, not towards Mt 18:15. The latter did not even apply in that case. It says: “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, …” It applies in a case where the sin is obvious, not in cases when there is just suspicion of sin. It is obviously not meant to help finding out the truth when there is suspicion, but in dealing with sin when it really happened and you know it.

The fact that blind Biblicism is bad should also not be an excuse to totally dismiss fundamental principles of church discipline such as Mt 18. Also, when dealing with a Biblicist group such as UBF (a group with the word “Bible” in it’s name claiming to devote all their time to study and follow the Bible), it’s very appropriate to confront them with Biblical principles. They claim the Bible is their sole authority, so they should really try to obey the Biblical principles, or clearly admit that they are following other, higher principles.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peterenns/2014/08/aha-moments-a-pastor-tells-his-story-15-anonymous/

Treating the Bible as a step-by-step instruction manual isn’t a good idea. Godly discernment and wisdom are more useful than rules.

It is a bit confusing because people were treating tax collectors in prescription with the old testament. And yet, here comes Jesus associating with them and inviting them back home in prescription with the new testament. But Jesus seems to be saying that if they refuse to repent of their actions, treat them as you would a tax collector old testament style (that is, throw them out of the community).

This does not mean that we cannot pray for them or Love them despite all of this. If someone has a rebellious son who won’t stop his dirty drug habit, most people would throw him out of the house. Does that mean that the parents don’t love him? It would seem that way to some. But ofcourse, most parents would continue to Love him and pray for his return. They might even go visit him in the ditches and minister to him. Which is what Jesus seemed to do.

But if the person will not change, Jesus message seemed to be clear in prescribing that they be thrown out of the community. Saint Paul said something similar in Romans 11 in speaking about the gentiles:

“For if God did not spare the natural branches (the jews), he will not spare you either (the grafted gentiles). Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

Again, Paul here is not saying we stop loving them or praying for them. But he is saying they are cut off (excommunicated from the tree). I know this message sounds offensive but it seems to be what is being communicated don’t you think?

As offensive as this message is, we need to remember that the message of forgiveness is also offensive. For example, once I was having a discussion with a non Christian friend. I commented how the Catholic church considers someone who has an abortion immediately excommunicated. He thought that was ridicules and harsh and took offense at that. But I explained to him that if the person repents of their sin, despite the grave offense, the Church allows them to be back in communication. In fact, this type of reckless love also annoys many non christians. They feel it somehow unfair that a person can live a debauch life and yet gain eternal salvation if they repent minutes before their death. This is what seemed to be the message of the book, The Prodigal God was it not?

So my point is that we cannot simply focus on how cruel it seems to throw someone out of the community and call it non-christian. Because as reckless as that is, we also show reckless Love in easily welcoming them back inside the community by doing something as simple as repenting.

Throwing someone out is not the same as ceasing to love them. I am sorry to didnt speak more clearly before.
God Bless

I find it interesting that so far this discussion hasnt brought up the question of authority. Jesus seemed to think that once someone rejects the church (whatever that means) he rejects an authoritative body. I bring this up because people will naturally have disagreements about different matters of faith. But during these disagreements, who is right? Why bother confronting someone if one hasnt even looked at their own objections against an authoritative source of what one SHOULD be doing.

If one tries to appeal to the bible, then it becomes problematic because the other party might also appeal to the bible. This then becomes a battle of churches and their interpretations. Church A says that you can do this and that, but Church B says that you cant. Both will offer biblical arguments. So which church are we suppose to take our objections to?

I would assume it would have to be a church that claims teaching authority and infallibility in matters of faith and morals.. or else.. why bother taking a problem to the church.

I suppose it could be argued that there is wisdom in numbers and experience. Hence, taking a intra church problem to a group of elders would help clarify the problem. It might. But it doesnt always. Jesus seemed to assume that whether the parties involve agree or not, the church has final authority. That is why the passage says, if he doesnt even listen to the church, then excommunicate him.

Reading your comments reminded me of something. Amy and I attended a Weekend to Remember conference (I highly recommend this for every married couple) in Milwaukee a couple years ago, and one subject was “conflict resolution.”
We discussed the very things you brought up here:
Making generalizations: “You ALWAYS do this…”
Bringing up past events: “This is just like last week when you did…”
and the inclusion of others comments/opinions: “So-and-so told me that…”

Instead, the presenter suggested a very concise way of approaching a conflict by using this form (I can’t forget it):
“When you do/say or don’t/don’t say , it makes me feel .”

I find that trying to create this statement in my head helps me to be more focused and specific in approaching conflicts with my wife. Usually, I don’t end up saying the exact sentence to her, but something similar. It also helps me to be more objective, to examine my emotions (why do I feel this way when she does this?) etc…

When I don’t take the time to create this sentence, I typically default to the previous three approaches. Emotions also make this difficult. Perhaps this could be applied to other relationships as well?

I see where you are coming from, and your description/assessment is quite accurate in many instances. Following Jesus’ instructions is hard for the reasons that you have mentioned. However, I would contend that many of us — especially myself — have never actually tried to follow Jesus’ instructions. It’s easy for me to bemoan the fact that our church culture makes it difficult to do this, and then use that as an excuse for not doing it. Following Jesus’ instructions will be devilishly difficult no matter what kind of church you are in, and Jesus knew that, yet he commanded us to do it anyway.

The next installment by Mark Roberts was posted today,

http://blog.beliefnet.com/markdroberts/2010/09/what-to-do-if-someone-sins-against-you-step-one.html

and he makes some incredibly astute observations. For example, he says this:

“Jesus is saying, ‘Tell the person who wronged you exactly what he or she did. Be direct.’… Notice, and this is crucial, that you are to focus on the particular sin. You are NOT to throw in lots of other sins to augment your case. In my pastoral experience, I’ve watched people confront others directly. But then, to buttress their case, they add lots of other things that the person has done wrong, or cite other people who have had a problem with the individual being confronted. The net result of this is always defensiveness and confusion. So, if you’re going to follow Jesus advice, be direct and clear. Notice also that you are to focus on the sinful action. This is not a time to comment on someone’s general character. Again, it’s tempting to do this, but rarely helpful. If somebody has lied to you, for example, don’t try to make the case that he or she is, in general, a liar. Keep to the specific infraction.”

And here’s another gem:

“In my experience as a pastor, I have found that when most people are hurt by others, their first impulse is not to return hurt directly, but rather to do it indirectly, especially through gossip. They tell their friends and supporters. They “share” their concern in a prayer request. They do just about anything other than what Jesus says we ought to do. The result, naturally, is a situation made worse: more sin, more hurt, more mess.”

In our church, I have seen this happen — returning hurt indirectly — over and over. It is not just leaders who do it; it’s everyone. Of course, one could say that leaders should know better, that they should set the example, that they should be held to a higher standard, etc. But there are all sorts of reasons why people do it, and it’s not my place to judge whose infractions are more or less severe. It is not an overstatement to say that these instructions of Jesus are among the most frequently disobeyed commands in all of Scripture.

When I review my own life and think about the times that I have been hurt by fellow Christians, I cannot think of a single instance where I have actually followed Jesus’ instructions. Well, actually, that’s not quite true. Lately I have been able to do this in my relationship with my wife, and the consequences have been amazingly positive. But I have not yet intentionally done this with anyone besides her, and it’s largely because of ignorance. I did not understand what Jesus taught in Matthew chapter 18, and until now no one has ever explained it to me, nor has anyone I know truly modeled that behavior. Some people have come close by teaching me some of these things, but no one has ever nailed it as Jesus did. So in my immaturity and ignorance I never did what Jesus commanded. But my ignorance is not an excuse. Unintentional sin is still sin (Lev 4). Without judging the seriousness of others’ shortcomings, I need to personally repent and commit myself to doing what Jesus commanded in this regard.

Making observations about UBF culture is fair. But I cannot use it as an excuse for failing to do what Jesus requires of me.

For starters, as you pointed out, it is always extremely difficult to really confront anyone, especially someone who is the recognized leader, and/or someone older than you, and especially so when you’re already hurt, wounded and emotionally highly vulnerable.

Also, without casting blame, our UBF church culture really does not welcome anyone confronting the leader for things he said or decisions he made, because we are then “breaking spiritual order.” (We often cite the example of Noah’s disrespectful son Ham being cursed, and Miriam being inflicted with leprosy after challenging Moses’ leadership with its obvious implication to the one who has a grievance.) So, I think we have yet to create a safe atmosphere or safe environment, where painful issues or conflicts can really be brought up. Furthermore, if one does bring it up, he may feel the following: being patronized, being labelled (difficult, childish, proud, immature, divisive), his grievance not being really heard or validated, the offender (usually older, senior) being defended, basically told to “just obey,” being made to feel that it’s basically his/her fault or spiritual problem, etc. Then the result is that one is more wounded and feels worse than before bringing up the conflict. Then the offended party has 3 choices: “suck it up,” “go out and pioneer another chapter,” or “run away,” none of which leads to any closure, nor gets to the heart of the matter.

Is my description or assessment too bleak?