Comments on: Shepherds or Sheep: Who Sacrifices More?

By: Ben Toh

Mon, 22 Aug 2011 03:25:45 +0000

By: David L

Mon, 22 Aug 2011 02:48:56 +0000

Sorry to butt in, but I also agree with Brian here. There has clearly been a systemic problem within UBF that is NOT the fault of the ‘sheep.’ And it is not simply an issue of a few dissatisfied people, there are literally hundreds if not many more who have felt the terrible weight of pharisaically ordered sacrifice by the sheep. The fact that this is not felt by every single person in the ministry does not mean that it is not a severe enough issue, that had UBF existed in the first century it probably would have gotten a verbal smack down by the Apostle Paul! Indeed, I know about things that are specifically condemned in Galatians which have occured as seemingly regular practice! This is not cynical, this is fact. And until the acknowledgment is made by everyone that this is the case, it will continue to be perpetuated.

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By: John Y

Sun, 21 Aug 2011 01:53:29 +0000

Me too. My home computer needs to go.

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By: Brian Karcher

Fri, 19 Aug 2011 14:13:30 +0000

By: Brian Karcher

Fri, 19 Aug 2011 02:17:43 +0000

My observation may indeed be cynical. But it is not based on my individual situation. It is based on observing over 100 people the past 24 years.

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By: John Y

Thu, 18 Aug 2011 15:31:06 +0000

Brian, that last comment strikes me as unnecessarily cynical and a bit unfair. I think I see where it is coming from but again let us not sweep up every possible shepherding relationship in UBF into the circle of your own unfortunate experience. It may be true that you are sacrificing or suffering more as “sheep” in your particular unfortunate experience–and for that you need to be truly supported and I hope you get that support. But to imply as a sweeping generalization that every “shepherd” in UBF is therefore doing the same thing to their “sheep” is just really not fair.

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By: Brian Karcher

Thu, 18 Aug 2011 13:18:38 +0000

By: John Y

Thu, 14 Apr 2011 04:34:36 +0000

random post, but for some reason, this episode of Undercover Boss taught me volumes about Shepherding in the workplace

http://www.cbs.com/primetime/undercover_boss/video/?pid=ZQJ6mA5az7ubZyxNwhZvh1DlhVlmBvnA&vs=homepage&play=true

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By: Seun

Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:46:08 +0000

I have always believed that Disciples are made and not born. Since they are made and not born as disciples then there must be sacrifice on the part of both shepherd and sheep. I don’t think it’s about who makes the most sacrifice but about relationships built on the word of God like the author asked questions that checkmates the shepherd’s role.

A true shepherd will always be concerned about his sheep and pray for them instead of just trying to shove his ideas and opinions down the sheep’s throat in order to meet statistic expectations. He carefully helps his sheep to avoid the mistakes he made and hope that they will always do better than himself.

Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. John 14:12

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By: david bychkov

Thu, 21 Oct 2010 12:00:58 +0000

Joe thanks, for an article. I would like to point at few issues that I see in this topic.
First, I’m agree with Ben that one of the main problems is that sheep is always sheep and junior is always junior. I think that shepherd-sheep or mentoring relations which we so emphasizing in UBF in most or less forms are plasticized in many churches and organization. And it is ok, when 1 older believer are taking care about younger or even about not believer. And examples of such relations could be found in many places in Bible. But I’m sure that our shepherds should have very clear point in this relations – to produce independent believers, whose believes are rooted in the Bible and Holy Spirit guiding, not just on church discipline or his (shepherds) advices. So we have to raise independents adult Christians. Yes, they could leave us. Yes, they could have their own opinions and be disagree with us. This seems to be more dangerous for organization, and even for shepherd. But if we do believe that “Holy Spirit lives in each of Christians to lead him” we should do it. The problem is that shepherd, who used to taking care about his sheep for a while, could hardly recognize the moment when he or she is ready to be independent. He could not trust in it. And this taking care easily could be transformed into some egoistic and despotic human feelings.
Second, I believe that these relations should be nature and even should not be the standard. In UBF we almost do not have other programs for education and growth of believers, this 1:1 is ruled. And this 1:1 including mentoring of one person under other and so on. I do believe that very often such relations especially for adult Christians are not necessary, could be not helpful for spiritual growth and even damaging.
But I’m not just against it. As I said and as each of us knows this relations could be very helpful and are supported by Bible. And it was good idea of our founders, but our practices are far from ideal as everything in this world and even in church. But them at least should be corrected.

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By: Joshua Yoon

Thu, 21 Oct 2010 09:10:08 +0000

By: Ben W

Tue, 19 Oct 2010 21:33:21 +0000

Well said, Dr. Ben.

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By: Ben Toh

Mon, 18 Oct 2010 21:28:57 +0000

Astute observations and very pertinent questions, Joe. As Abraham Nial mentioned, a junior or sheep in UBF is a junior and sheep forever, or at least until the senior or leader goes to heaven. Because of our cultural climate, it seems to be very hard, if not impossible, for the senior to really “sacrifice himself” by exposing his own authentic weakness and vulnerability, or by allowing himself to genuinely learn something fresh and new and even spiritual from the junior. The apostle Paul was truly a great shepherd, because he came to the Corinthians, not in his brilliant leadership and scholarship, but “in weakness and fear, and with much trembling” (1 Corinthians 2:3).

Also, unless we as shepherds and leaders realize that our Bible students and juniors have to sacrifice themselves to put up with our quirks and annonying idiosyncrasies (unless we are sinless!), we end up with unaddressed “blind spots” that everyone else can see except ourselves. More than that, we can also never really be friends and brothers and sisters in Christ, and only have a sterile business-like relationship like that between a boss and his employee.

But perhaps the most damaging aspect of thinking that shepherds sacrifice more than sheep, is that we’ll never overcome our own comfort zone to contextualize the gospel for them. Since we think we sacrifice so much, then we inadvertently communicate that the sheep or junior should just appreciate everything the leader does and sacrifices for them.

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By: Jennifer Espinola

Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:59:34 +0000

Thank you, Joe, for asking this important question about the shepherd-sheep relationship. I don’t have a specific comment about who sacrifices more because in my current relationships with Bible students, i am honored to call them my friends as well. The women that God has blessed me to study with has been my instructors as well, helping me to know more about the Lord and understand his word from a new perspective. Granted, these are lovely Christian women themselves, and i think because they too have received the Lord and His Spirit that we can have a relationship that is more mutually edifying. But even among our non-believing Bible students, i think the friendship model in bringing them to the Lord is crucial to building trusting relationships.

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By: Ben W

Sat, 16 Oct 2010 02:13:22 +0000

We are different people in different situations. We wear different masks. I’m the youngest in my family, not only in my immediate family but also among my cousins. Thus, in a family situation, I often find myself acting like a youngest would act–I listen more, make jokes, get attention. At work I teach. I have to lead discussions and facilitate graciously.

However, when I am a shepherd I am also a sheep. I am Jesus’ sheep. I come before him as any other shepherd or sheep would come before him–humbly. In any Bible study context, I’m a sheep and you’re a sheep. All we can do is help each other follow the Good Shepherd.

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By: Abraham Nial

Fri, 15 Oct 2010 19:30:08 +0000

Thank you Joe for honestly raising these questions in the shepherd and sheep relationship that are so real for all of us. This reminds me of Jesus, the Good Shepherd, who chose to honestly show how he struggled at the Garden of Gethsemane to the inner circle of disciples. This alo reminds me of Paul who in his letter to his sheep called himself “the worst of sinners” in a present tense. Also on another occasion, Paul asked his sheep’s prayer support so that he could be “bold,” admitting that he was “not bold enough.”
I think the problem in the shepherd-sheep relatioinship in UBF is that while it is expected to change & mature over time is not happening. What I mean by this is, a sheep is considered a sheep for ever from the shepherd’s perspective! Sheep is always the one who must be taught, trained, guided, given instructions, mentored and controlled. He is expected to come out with his problems, prayer topics and report them to the shepherd/leader. Just as you said, this relation is never symmetric.
So the shepherd and sheep relationship need to undergo certain changes for the good. I see this change in the relationship of Jesus with the Twelve. When the Twelve began to follow Jesus, they started as shepherd and sheep in the typical sense. Jesus was their Rabbi and Lord, in the sense of Master. But toward the end of his life, Jesus made them known that they were no more servants but his friends, which introduced a covenant situation, a give and take relationship. However, Jesus earnest desire would be to see them as his mature bride in love with him, which introduces perfect trust, spiritual intimacy and unity.
I surely believe that the shepherd and sheep relationship should mature to friendship (also partnership) and even spiritual unity.

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By: Joe Schafer

Fri, 15 Oct 2010 13:47:08 +0000

Thank you. This is precisely the message that I wanted to convey.

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By: Joshua Brinkerhoff

Fri, 15 Oct 2010 13:00:51 +0000

Romans 12:3 came to mind as I read this posting:

“For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.”

The posting made me realize that those who study the Bible with me are worthy of my respect, irregardless of what the outcome of our Bible study is. I should respect their willingness to sacrifice in the ways mentioned in the blog posting, and I should think more highly of them than I do of myself. Thanks for the thought-provoking posting, Joe. God bless!

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By: Brian Karcher

Fri, 15 Oct 2010 12:32:16 +0000

Excellent questions raised here! I think this applies to any leadership role. A good leader must be able to be a good follower. In our UBF ministry particularly, we will display Jesus’ love to a greater degree if we can ask such questions honestly and repent when needed.

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