Comments on: Why Do We Have Divisions?

By: Ben Toh

Wed, 20 May 2015 13:34:40 +0000

Thanks, yellowblossom, for your fresh new voice: “Reading this post from 2010 I find it quite interesting that the same problem persists in 2015. Really nothing changed! …let’s be careful not to cross the line into the area where our will is imposed on them. A shepherd, a human shepherd , has sin. No one is without sin except Christ. So what makes ubf think that shepherds have the right to guide someone into all decisions including marriage?” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2010/11/04/why-do-we-have-divisions/#comment-18488

Exactly! You ask questions that some people just do not want asked! Because many, like you, have posed and asked such very important and relevant questions, they have sadly been accused of causing division in ubf.

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By: Mark Mederich

Wed, 20 May 2015 12:41:06 +0000

why don’t we have more divisions?:)

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By: BrianK

Wed, 20 May 2015 02:07:31 +0000

Here are some mind-blowing facts. Is there any doubt the ubf top leaders have taken oaths unto death and will die defending the ubf status quo?

The same problems existed in 2010 and 2015.
The same problems existed in 1976, 1989, 2000 and 2011 (all 4 crisis/reform movements)

Check out the crazy discussions back in 2004/2005 when I was defending ubf on the Voy forums: Brian as Mr. ubf :)

And get this… I was contacted in 2012 or so by a Korean man who claimed the SAME problems with authority and abuse existed in 1958! That is THREE YEARS before ubf was officially launched in 1961.

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By: yellowblossom

Wed, 20 May 2015 00:36:10 +0000

Exactly. No one can love up to this standard. Jesus died giving us undeserved grace. Our debts have been paid in full. How can we live with the mentality that our works will win our salvation? This is not Christian

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By: yellowblossom

Wed, 20 May 2015 00:33:41 +0000

Reading this post from 2010 I find it quite interesting that the same problem persists in 2015. Really nothing changed! The church I currently attend after leaving ubf two weeks ago, is not like this. Yes there are pastors and shepherds, but they never ever impose their will on the people who need prayer. They just pray Jesus and his Holy Spirit may guide. God hears our prayers for others and we should pray for our friends, bible students, etc. but let’s be careful not to cross the line into the area where our will is imposed on them. A shepherd, a human shepherd , has sin. No one is without sin except Christ. So what makes ubf think that shepherds have the right to guide someone into all decisions including marriage? Wow, it is interesting. I only been out of ubf for two weeks and already I feel ….God! Why have I been so blind?

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By: Mark Mederich

Mon, 11 May 2015 13:52:35 +0000

but now, at the end of the ages, we have one final golden opportunity (with God’s help) to cast aside all that hinders us (the many parts of religion & world that have failed) to go with Holy Spirit: change church into true worship of God by siblings in Christ (leaders only being experienced guides/encouragers)

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By: Mark Mederich

Mon, 11 May 2015 13:39:47 +0000

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By: Mark Mederich

Mon, 11 May 2015 13:32:44 +0000

true spiritual leaders of any part of the body of believers must grow up in Christ/be enabled by Holy Spirit to lead humbly/usefully (sad it took 2000 yrs to catch on..); elders must wisely advise/oversee in Christ’s way (for it is Christ’s kingdom, not man’s) followers/believers must take initiative with Holy Spirit help; devil has used disempowerment of followers to destroy churches/families/individuals; helpless people can’t make much progress in life, nor avoid human pitfalls; when religion has failed to follow Christ’s ways, it has left followers looking back toward world & too often getting too involved in world/suffering same pitfalls as world: truth be told, many churches developed false faith in selves, wishful thinking, health, wealth, overextension

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By: forestsfailyou

Tue, 24 Mar 2015 21:16:03 +0000

I rushed for a fraternity but decided against it. People like them for differing reasons, but for me I didn’t need drinking friends, and already had enough friends without needing to pay the huge fee. It remains, that many college students are looking to belong when they get to college and it doesn’t take much to pull someone in.

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By: Mark Mederich

Tue, 24 Mar 2015 11:32:38 +0000

(OOPS, MEANT CONNECT AT WALLET..:)

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By: Mark Mederich

Tue, 24 Mar 2015 11:22:42 +0000

WOW EDU ISSUE IS SO LIKE UBF ISSUE (NU-UBF CONNECT AT HIP?)

Will Farrell wants to ban all fraternities: Is he on to something?

In the wake of the racist video that surfaced from the University of Oklahoma’s Sigma Alpha Epsilon chapter, many are again questioning whether the exclusive Greek life system should be banned.
Christian Science Monitor
By Rowena Lindsay
13 hours ago

Since several brothers of the University of Oklahoma Sigma Alpha Epsilon (SAE) chapter were caught chanting racist slurs earlier this month, many have spoken out against the antiquated practices of Greek life, including comedian Will Ferrell.

Taking an uncharacteristically serious approach, the “Old School” star said that, despite having had a positive experience as a brother of Delta Tau Delta while at the University of Southern California, he thought the whole system should be abolished.

“When you break it down, it really is about creating cliques and clubs and being exclusionary. Fraternities were started as academic societies that were supposed to have a philanthropic arm to them. And when it’s governed by those kind of rules, then they’re still beneficial,” Farrell told Entertainment Tonight.

Colleges and universities promoting diversity have tried to control the influence of exclusionary Greek life in a variety of ways, from integrating women and taking away frat houses to suspending or banning Greek life activities all together.

Although University of Oklahoma has not suspended all of its fraternities or sororities – as University of Virginia, West Virginia University, Clemson University, Emory University and Amherst College have all done in the past year – the school is currently investigating its Greek life system in response to many reports of racism that have surfaced in the wake of the SAE incident.

However, this trend is nothing new. Elite colleges in the Northeast have been doing way with Greek life since the 1960s in an attempt to curb the fraternities’ control over the social activity of the schools and make it safer for women and minorities.

Banning fraternities and sororities, which have their origins among wealthy elite, is not practical for all schools, however. Even the small liberal arts schools experienced push back from wealthy alumni when transitioning away from the Greek system, causing a drop in donations. For schools where Greek life is much more culturally engrained, it could be financially prohibitive to get rid of it.

The North-American Intrafraternity Conference argues that banning fraternities inhibit freedoms of expression and association guaranteed by the First Amendment to the US Constitution.

“NIC is against the unilateral suspension of fraternal organizations because it’s not the right way to address the issues the community is facing,” Pete Smithhisler, the group’s president, told NBC. “Suspensions of groups is just putting band-aids on the situation.”

Fraternal members often say that Greek life provides a home away from home, a sense of community for young people living on large campuses where it’s easy to get lost and forgotten. They are major boosters of athletic and other campus community events, including philanthropic activities. But, they complain, the media often only focus on the misbehaving frat members.

While reports with accurate statistics on incidents of racism and sexual assault on college campuses are nearly impossible to come by – and fraternities are certainly not solely responsible for a so-called rape culture – multiple studies have shown that men in fraternities are more likely to commit rape than men not in fraternities.

Schools that have banned fraternities have found that the community aspect of Greek life was easily replaced by other campus organizations and activities.

According to Earl Smith, a professor at Colby College, the number of women in campus leadership positions swiftly rose after the school choose to ban fraternities. Middlebury College has also been pleased with the long-term affects of not having Greek life on campus.

Doing away with fraternities has also made campuses more inclusive.

“We’re pleased that Middlebury decided some time ago to make our residential life system inclusive of all students,” Shirley Collado, Dean of the College, told Newsweek. “I think that Middlebury is stronger and more diverse.”

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By: Mark Mederich

Sat, 05 Oct 2013 15:20:16 +0000

sure; sorry, just saw this (i go in waves when not too busy at work:)
dr ben had referred back to 3yr old article & it was still so timely/exciting when i clicked into it, i guess i got carried away with another blitzkrieg (that’s the half-german coming out in me:); anyway signing off for now

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By: Mark Mederich

Sat, 05 Oct 2013 15:06:24 +0000

‘I wish we would all accept that dealing with division IS the ministry.’
i think this even expands to all worldwide believers: the body of Christ has been so often disjoined/misaligned in history (not just by world, but by one another/denominational differences/etc), that i think we (believers) have only begun to ‘grow up’ into Christ’s one body..

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By: Mark Mederich

Sat, 05 Oct 2013 14:58:27 +0000

‘In nature, where there are bursts of life there are divisions. Think of the embryo. Think of variations in animals species. Think about a terrarium. Think of a large family where kids are growing in independence. If there was no burst of life, then there will be no divisions. It is how we deal with the divisions that matters.’

true: parents must let adult children (who feel ready) go live their own lives; church group must let regular members (who choose) go spread God’s good news somewhere/somehow

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By: Mark Mederich

Sat, 05 Oct 2013 14:51:18 +0000

‘I believe that we need to go back and RELEARN how to LIVE under the pure GRACE of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in order to break the divisions built by patriarchy/ hierarchy and too much FORMALITY in the church!! I guess… WE NEED to “PREACH the GOSPEL to OURSELVES” everyday!=)’

Hallelujah

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By: Mark Mederich

Sat, 05 Oct 2013 14:46:15 +0000

‘I liked what one of your children said, Ben, about UBF being the only true church. I felt _exactly_ the same way about the church in which I was saved. And when (many years ago) division arose in that church, I was deeply troubled because I did not know where to turn. The division threatened to shake the very foundations of my faith because I, like a child, only knew the love of my ‘mother’ – the church in which I had been saved.’

my dad used to call the catholic church the true one descended all the way directly from the apostles; of course the baptists in the next little town said catholics were going to hell due to statue worship etc; in chicago i briefly encountered a small baptist church where the pastor said they were ‘the baptists of the baptists!’ (even southern baptists didn’t really follow the bible like them:)

mostly religion gone awry steals our joy; OH HOLY SPIRIT, GRANT US JOY EVEN IF YOU MUST “REIGN IN” RELIGION TO GET ALONG & TRULY FOLLOW YOU;

GRANT OUR CHILDREN (EVEN IF ADULT AGE NOW) TRUE SPIRITUAL JOY (TAKE AWAY ANY & ALL DAMAGE INFLICTED BY CONTROLLING/DISCOURAGING ‘RELIGION GONE WILD’

HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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By: admin

Sat, 05 Oct 2013 14:35:17 +0000

Hi Mark,

Your thoughts are welcome here, as always. I appreciate your spirit. So I want to ask you to take a time out for a few days or so in order that others can comment. Right now your comments are repeating the same things while stifling the other dialogues that are starting to take place here.

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Be humble, and don’t preach. No matter how right you think you are, you may still be wrong.

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Welcome others. Many people are shy about posting their views in public because it makes them vulnerable to criticism. Allay their fears, and accept newcomers into the fellowship of this website with grace.

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Take others at their word. Comment on the substance of what has been actually said, not on the person who said it, nor on what you believe may be a hidden meaning or motivation behind what has been said.

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By: Mark Mederich

Sat, 05 Oct 2013 14:22:33 +0000

‘When a Christian leader develops Autocratic power over the church, the members will rebel. They will be scattered and the Holy Spirit may never work. They will establish a church of their own or will find another ministry of which they would think is better than yours…It is the Holy Spirit that works. And when we make the gospel known to them, it should be out of love, humbleness, and by the grace of God.’
HALLELUJAH

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By: Mark Mederich

Sat, 05 Oct 2013 14:15:43 +0000

‘I think that the division is the only solution when there no atmosphere of constructive opposition in the church. So if any opposition is strongly suppressed at the very end there are just two ways for those who are disagree with the leader. One way is just to keep silence and follow suppressing your true feelings and opinions, in spite of what you do really believe and feel. The other way is to keep your opinion, to keep what you actually believe and…leave. Or the third way is to build this constructive opposition culture.’

FOR ME: NO MORE SILENCE (SILENCE IS DEVIL’S DECEPTION FROM PIT OF HELL TO KEEP US SPIRITUALLY DISABLED/USELESS)

FOR ME: I LEFT CATHOLICISM, I LEFT UBF A COUPLE TIMES, I LEFT OTHER CHURCHES IN-BETWEEN (LIKE BAPTIST, ASSEMBLY OF GOD, ETC); REALLY I WAS LEAVING HIERARCHY/OPPRESSION/CONSTRICTION/DENOMINATION/CONTROL/JUDGEMENT/EXCESSIVE EXPECTATION/UNREALISTIC IDEAS/FALSE FAITH EXTREMES/ETC

FOR ME: THERE IS NO LONGER ANY OPTION BUT TO CONTINUE AS PART OF CONSTRUCTIVE OPPOSITION OR EXAMPLE CULTURE WHEREVER/WHENEVER I’M AT (UBF/OR WHEREVER GOD LEADS, JOB, NEIGHBORHOOD, ETC)

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By: Mark Mederich

Sat, 05 Oct 2013 13:51:04 +0000

‘Surely, when grace prevails, our hearts are softened. But when human authority and seniority prevails, it becomes an unspoken and expected rule of law coming from the top to the bottom that cannot be questioned or discussed in any healthy, open or transparent way.’

YES, PEOPLE MUST EXPERIENCE GRACE OR WE CANNOT EXPECT THEM TO FOLLOW OR HANG AROUND;

THE TRUTH IS LACK OF GRACEFUL AUTHORITY CAUSES ALL DIVISIONS IN CHURCHES, FAMILIES, SOCIETIES, ETC; BUT LEADERS/REGULAR MEMBERS CAN ONLY BE GRACEFUL IF THEY’VE LEARNED SUCH WITH HOLY SPIRIT HELP/HAVE FRUIT OF SPIRIT (LIKE KINDNESS/PEACE)

WE CAN’T MAKE OURSELVES DO SO JUST BY WISHING IT (NOR SHOULD WE BLAME OURSELVES FOR FAILING TO BE HUMANLY ABLE TO DO IT), RATHER WE MUST SEEK/HAVE HOLY SPIRIT HELP.. HALLELUJAH

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By: Mark Mederich

Sat, 05 Oct 2013 13:37:39 +0000

‘Through out history the church has inclined toward “hero worship” of their preferred church leader, thus obscuring that Jesus is the only True Head of the church. Paul himself would have none of it when he rebuked anyone in the church for communicating, “I follow Paul.”’

THE MAIN REBUKING LEADERS NEED TO DO IS: “DON’T FOLLOW ME, FOLLOW CHRIST, WITH ME”
HALLELUJAH

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By: Mark Mederich

Sat, 05 Oct 2013 13:30:01 +0000

HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(PRAISE GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

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By: Mark Mederich

Sat, 05 Oct 2013 13:26:04 +0000

‘Likewise, the weight of responsibility is not really in the obedience of the younger, but in the Christian leader being humble like Jesus, until the “sheep” hear their shepherd’s voice and are willingly happy to obey. Yes, surely, the church is called to respect her leaders. But our leaders are also sinners, which means that they are not infallible, and should also be subject to accountability to a board of elders to prevent autocracy, which invariably kills the spirit of the church.
As Stott said in Calling Christian leaders, his observation in every continent where he has preached is that church leaders are often like the Corinthian church leaders who expected to be regarded as elite elevated “super-apostles,” whose word and directives are law. If this happens regular church members soon feel like disempowered followers of men, who are not allowed to take the initiave freely by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. As a saying goes, “Where there is control, church growth stops” and vice versa.’

unfortunately religion has often done bad in the world, though trying to do good; but a new age has come:

true spiritual leaders of any part of the body of believers must grow up in Christ/be enabled by Holy Spirit to lead humbly/usefully (sad it took 2000 yrs to catch on..);

elders must wisely advise/oversee in Christ’s way (for it is Christ’s kingdom, not man’s)

followers/believers must take initiative with Holy Spirit help; devil has used disempowerment of followers to destroy churches/families/individuals; helpless people can’t make much progress in life, nor avoid human pitfalls;

when religion has failed to follow Christ’s ways, it has left followers looking back toward world & too often getting too involved in world/suffering same pitfalls as world:

truth be told, many churches developed false faith in selves,
wishful thinking, health, wealth, overextension; for example churches like the Crystal Cathedral lost value just as my house lost value (we believed world’s lie that property has real/lasting value; in reality it only has emotional/comparative value to the area condition/economy at the time), or we experience divisions/setbacks when we thought we could conquer the world with the gospel;

now we must break free of all that binds us & encourage one another to ‘go with God’; it won’t be easy, because the failed parts of religions have made us helpless &/or wounded &/or proud &/or &/or mentally ill &/or in debt &/or conflicted &/or etc; in addition that has led our children to grow up weak or proud or whatever, which has led them by college age to experiment with alcohol or relationships or whatever; religion as we know it has mostly failed to help us grow up in Christ/2000yrs has been lost since Jesus showed us the way & Holy Spirit has been trying to help us, if we only listen/tune in..

but now, at the end of the ages, we have one final golden opportunity (with God’s help) to cast aside all that hinders us (the many parts of religion & world that have failed us so terribly so far) & go beyond:

go with Christ, go with Holy Spirit: change our churches into true worship/prayer/sharing centers: siblings in Christ looking up to God with Holy Spirit help (with leaders, like older siblings, only guiding);

worship service with praise/short monologue message (not ‘the answer’, which only God really knows) with time/opportunity after to dialogue & refine/discover God’s meanings together (more like interest group sessions were at summer conference)

prayer sessions to seek Holy Spirit guidance/help

sharing sessions: testimony (not bragging for self/superior/organization, rather encourage by example of how God worked/can work); bible learning (not teacher/student, rather fellow students of Holy Spirit/siblings in Christ); daily bread (not serving the chosen, rather growing together in Christ & repenting/believing newly every day individually & collectively)

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By: Mark Mederich

Sat, 05 Oct 2013 12:14:21 +0000

‘The problem emerges I think when leaders start demanding submission to themselves from others and stop focusing on their responsibility before God to humbly serve those under their care. I think it’s a very good point – and one we in leadership positions need to think about seriously – that we should be doing our best to help others to obey Christ (“teaching them to obey everything I [Christ] have commanded you” – Mt 28:20). If people only learn to obey their human leaders, but not to deeply and radically be obedient to Christ, they will not be able to stand up in the time when their faith is tested, because their faith will be based on imperfect human beings. In that way, human leaders can even become idols. Everything that hinders us from fully devoting every aspect of ourselves to Christ himself should be removed, and this should be our concern and prayer for each other. God is a jealous God! May God help us to understand what it means to help people be obedient to Christ, beginning with ourselves.’

Amen. HALLELUJAH!

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By: Mark Mederich

Sat, 05 Oct 2013 12:09:35 +0000

‘I was told that I was being disobedient and that since the leader is God’s chosen servant, I should do what he told me to do. This disturbed me and bothered me. Am I really supposed to follow a MAN and his direction from my life when I didn’t feel any conviction from the Lord?’

seems believers get old testament treatment (which may be helpful for new believer to get started or sinful life under control) but then we need new testament treatment (Holy Spirit guidance thru prayer/scripture/good example/good counsel/encouragement)
we must not have ongoing old testament treatment which constricts/deforms us & corrupts leaders with inordinate influence/power/benefits

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By: Mark Mederich

Sat, 05 Oct 2013 11:53:57 +0000

Amen (me/all of us too:)

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By: Mark Mederich

Sat, 05 Oct 2013 11:50:01 +0000

‘It seems the kind of unity Paul is calling for is one of “unity in diversity” rather than conformity under one “banner.” That true community comes through the process of dealing with actual conflict and coming through loving each other more now than we did before we faced our differences. That “actual community” is better than pseudo-conformity. Learning to step off our soap boxes and build one another up is for me a powerful picture of the Gospel.’

yeah, we don’t need to try to mold each other, we need to encourage one another as we commonly seek God & He individually molds us (some the same, some different..)

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By: Mark Mederich

Sun, 22 Sep 2013 15:18:34 +0000

anyway niceness has not/never will work with such people, gotta fight fire with fire on earth, niceness only works in heaven where people care to listen:)

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By: Mark Mederich

Sun, 22 Sep 2013 15:04:40 +0000

my dying breathe shall be: repent:)

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By: Ben Toh

Sun, 22 Sep 2013 14:59:04 +0000

Great videos, Brian, especially the one by Lencioni.

@Mark: “Why don’t we have unity?:)” In my opinion our humility is lacking, including my own. Our condescension toward others is also lacking, so that we come across to others as being quite condescending, rude, patronizing, cheesy and disrespectful.

Our humility and condescension is poor because the gospel of Christ’s humility and condescension does not capture and captivate our soul, but remains rather superficially and shallowly on the surface.

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By: Mark Mederich

Sun, 22 Sep 2013 14:50:39 +0000

THOSE WHO DIVIDE, SHALL BE DIVIDED:)

(DIVIDE & CONQUER IS A TACTIC FROM THE PIT OF HELL WHICH HAS BEEN JUDGED..
SENTENCE IS COMING)

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By: Brian Karcher

Sat, 21 Sep 2013 16:51:45 +0000

By: Mark Mederich

Sat, 21 Sep 2013 16:47:01 +0000

i hate it when sincere followers get blamed while real problem is unchanging system/group beliefs & practices

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By: Mark Mederich

Sat, 21 Sep 2013 16:37:20 +0000

agreed:) i was thinking some ideas/actions of org/some ldrs in past would not only facilitate, but maybe even necessitate divisions (my sarcastic/social work system fixer side showing)

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By: Brian Karcher

Sat, 21 Sep 2013 16:28:34 +0000

“Consensus is a four-letter word to me”

–Patrick Lencioni

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By: Brian Karcher

Sat, 21 Sep 2013 16:25:28 +0000

By: Mark Mederich

Sat, 21 Sep 2013 15:37:17 +0000

why divisions? (dah! ‘no-brainer’ question:)

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By: Mark Mederich

Mon, 16 Sep 2013 01:20:26 +0000

why don’t we have more divisions?
man operates religion like business & wonders, gee, why are we divided;
us smart people act pretty stupid sometimes, don’t we

that’s what we need, a good laugh at all man’s silly foibles:)

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By: Mark Mederich

Sun, 15 Sep 2013 19:57:11 +0000

maybe the real question is: why don’t we have unity?:)
answer: because we have not all submitted to Christ by seeking Holy Spirit help..

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By: Mark Mederich

Fri, 10 May 2013 01:34:25 +0000

Amen!

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By: Mark Mederich

Fri, 10 May 2013 01:26:39 +0000

Amen.

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By: Brian Karcher

Thu, 01 Dec 2011 00:08:19 +0000

Very intriguing thought on the subject of divisions:

“Division is the curse and judgement of God. A curse divinely implanted can only be divinely removed. This dis-unifying factor keeps the world safe from itself.”

(source: http://johnharmstrong.typepad.com/john_h_armstrong_/2011/11/the-dangerous-poison-of-sectarianism.html)

Indeed, we need divine intervention.

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By: Brian Karcher

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 23:50:42 +0000

By: Brian Karcher

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 23:43:41 +0000

By: Ben Toh

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 22:52:12 +0000

By: Kevin Jesmer

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 22:34:10 +0000

In nature, where there are bursts of life there are divisions. Think of the embryo. Think of variations in animals species. Think about a terrarium. Think of a large family where kids are growing in independence. If there was no burst of life, then there will be no divisions. It is how we deal with the divisions that matters.

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By: Ben Toh

Thu, 06 Oct 2011 02:29:41 +0000

A JOKE: A man was stranded on a deserted Pacific island for years. Finally one day a boat comes sailing into view, and the man frantically waves and draws the skipper’s attention. The boat comes near the island and the sailor gets out and greets the stranded man.
After a while the sailor asks, “What are those three huts you have here?”
“Well, that’s my house there.”
“What’s that next hut?” asks the sailor.
“I built that hut to be my church.”
“What about the other hut?”
“Oh, that’s where I used to go to church.”

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By: Ben Toh

Mon, 21 Mar 2011 00:44:50 +0000

Thanks, Bill, I look forward to your infrequent, yet quite insightful and meaningful comments, which I have always enjoyed reading.

I do agree with you that your confidence in your personal standing with Christ has has surely enabled you not to be intimidated or threatened by “patriachal expressions of authority” in the church, which as you say is common in Asian and Korean churches, and perhaps in some American churches too. The reason I express some concern about this is that it would not likely be as easy for a much younger Christian, when he is being confronted by an older paternalistic, patriarchal Christian.

For instance, if an older Christian man in his 40s or 50s says to a young Christian man in his 20s, “I will introduce you to a young Christian woman to marry,” it may be hard for the young Christian to overcome that paternalistic, patriachal pressure, even if he disagrees, or does not like it.

In a much more serious and tragic instance, a young Christian man committed suicide when his older shepherd forbade him from leaving the U.S. when he wanted to return to his home country. Of course, this young man had deep unresolved inner issues in his soul, but I think that a contributing factor, or perhaps even the “last straw” was his inability to overcome the persistent objection of his older shepherd and Bible teacher, since he strongly wanted to leave the U.S.

Also, in the Bible, God seems to have wanted to do away with this paternalism and patriarchy common to fallen man by choosing the younger over the older in many instances: Abel over Cain, Jacob over Esau, Joseph over his 10 older brothers, Ephraim over Manasseh (Gen 48:13,14), David over his 5 older brothers, appointing young Timothy as the lead pastor over the church in Ephesus (1 Tim 4:12), Jesus commending the “younger” tax collectors and prostitutes of entering the kingdom of heaven before the “older” religious leaders (Matt 21:31).

I think that God does this through out the Bible because grace is no respecter of age. No older person is ever more worthy of receiving grace compared to a younger person.

What do you think?

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By: Dr. Bill

Sun, 20 Mar 2011 01:14:42 +0000

Hi Ben. Thanks for your thoughtful responses. To be honest, I love the Korean culture, language and people. Certainly Korean (Asian) culture is more patriarchal, that can’t be denied, and so naturally this is reflected in the church. But to be perfectly honest, it does not bother me. Why not, you may ask? Very simply because I am quite confident in my own standing in Christ, and even if someone ‘orders’ me to do something, or expects certain behavior from me, it’s OK – as long as it does not violate my conscience, I have no problem submitting in this way. Why? Because as I said, I am completely confident in my identity in Christ. I am in Christ, and He in me. As John says in his letter (1st John 3:1), I am a child of God. Thus I don’t feel threatened by patriarchal expressions of authority. If I think that responding to a particular expectation or request would violate my conscience, I don’t do it; instead I talk about it with the person or persons involved, and attempt to resolve any differences in our understanding of the Scripture. I think this is the only real way to address issues like this – person to person (one on one :) – because this is the first step in the method outlined by Jesus in Matthew 18:14-16.
Related to this is the question of God-ordained authority in the church. Recently, we’ve been studying the book of Acts, and I was struck by Paul’s response in Acts when the High Priest ordered him to be struck – in violation of the holy law of God! Without realizing it was the High Priest, Paul responded by accusing him of violating the law of God. When informed that it was the High Priest, Paul beautifully submitted to God, acknowledging his own ignorance, citing the proper portion of the law when it comes to respecting God’s ordained leaders. So what I take away from this is that even in situations where we violently disagree with God’s ordained leaders, we are to respect them. In such situations, I believe the appropriate Biblical response is to first go to our brothers one-on-one (including leaders who are brothers) just as Jesus taught in Matthew 18. This is the only real way to preserve, nurture and grow relationships, which are the foundational bedrock of the church – starting with our relationship with Jesus.

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By: Arlene

Fri, 11 Mar 2011 04:16:01 +0000

By: Gideon Klijian

Fri, 11 Mar 2011 03:16:49 +0000

Also, in Apostle Paul’s epistles like 1 & 2 Timothy we can find solutions to disunity or division in the church because that was a problem that the Ephesian church faced during Timothy’s lifetime. Also, I think in any christian fellowship or ministry this problem can be common. So, we need to constantly remember God’s grace in our lives through Christ. We need to grow in his humility more and more. I wanted to say more but my daughter keeps on begging for my help. Lord be with all of you.

-S. Gideon Klijian

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By: david bychkov

Thu, 10 Mar 2011 21:21:22 +0000

Thanks for very nice comment from heart, Arlene.

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By: Ben Toh

Thu, 10 Mar 2011 21:12:29 +0000

Thanks, Arlene. Spurgeon explained a weak top heavy divided church (in his 19th century English) far better than I did (in modern 20the century English)! Do keep sharing the gems you find from “Spur.”

Thanks also for requoting what I wrote regarding friendship, partnership, informality, and overcoming paternalism, patriachy and hierarchy, which are really deadly man-centered creations that stifles freedom, liberation, and varied individual Christian expressions.

I am encouaged that Spurgeon identified these very exact same problems in the church in England 150 years ago!

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By: Arlene

Wed, 09 Mar 2011 12:22:31 +0000

By: Michael Nuccio

Sun, 06 Mar 2011 16:05:56 +0000

By: Michael Nuccio

Fri, 04 Mar 2011 21:01:05 +0000

By: Ben Toh

Mon, 28 Feb 2011 06:26:32 +0000

Thanks, Minda, for your beautiful honesty. I am quite moved and touched. When I remember my life as a shepherd, I mainly tried to control people and to make them do what I wanted, as I had shared. Once I threatened my sheep that if he did not repent, God would give him a brain tumor, AIDS and the Ebolo virus. Actually, he became worse and left the church for over a year. But in spite of my horrible unbiblical tactics, God later changed his heart and he became a God fearing, godly Christian, husband and father.

I think that the temptation of autocracy is very great. Even Jesus’ own disciples tried to be greater than the other disciples (Mark 9:34; 10:37). Jesus, our Lord, is truly the greatest, because he humbled and lowered himself more than any man (Phil 2:5-8).

Thank God, Minda, that God has made you a good “atae” for all your sisters. Maybe you can use your autocracy a little bit to encourage them to keep on commenting! =^.^=

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By: Ben Toh

Sun, 27 Feb 2011 13:18:29 +0000

Oops, sorry for this serious typographical error. It is not “we CAN”T extend grace to others,” but “we CAN extend grace to others.” May God have mercy on my subliminal, subconscious sin!

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By: Ben Toh

Sun, 27 Feb 2011 13:16:21 +0000

Thanks, Matthew, for sharing the beauty and the grace of Jesus to you. I believe that to the degree that we personally experience the grace of Jesus in our heart, we can’t extend grace to others, instead of causing a division.

For Jesus to extend grace to me, he had to take the punishment that I deserve. If I am moved by Jesus’ grace to me, then I should never take revenge on others for their sins.

The father in Luke 15 was so hurt and wounded by his 2 lost sons. But he suffered tremendously inwardly, and only estended limitless grace to his 2 self-centered, selfish sons. Though I have only failed again and again, I pray to learn the heart of this father through out my life.

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By: Matthew

Sun, 27 Feb 2011 12:02:55 +0000

In addition Dr. Ben in my comment.,Divisions in the church happens because people in it fail to see
Jesus as the center of worship and praise. People tend to make big name for themselves and be the
center of the universe. In each sinful act we cause divisions in the church. It is because we lack of
something, people in the church don’t see the grace of Jesus in their lives. I too always fail to see
Jesus grace in me, how He’d save me from my sinful life. Like what you said in everything their is
beauty,and if we see this beauty with each other their is unity. Like in UBF family each has it’s own gift
and uniqueness if we use it for the glory of God surely God will Bless it and instead of division we
become “one”.

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By: minda

Sun, 27 Feb 2011 10:24:27 +0000

I agree with you Dr. Ben that the task of the Christian leader is not to rule over the church you mean the people inside the church because Paul who was one of the best servant leader did not try to control people in his church but he is faithful to proclaiming the mystery God has graciously entrusted him. Now i realized that like you Dr. Ben I practice autocracy to control people especially my sisters and the shepherdess here in bible house to go fishing and do things i think right in the eyes of God. But whenever i practice my autocracy i realized that i inflicted bad testimony to them because i show them how impatient i am by rebuking them harshly like telling them how unthankful they are , that i am not gentle and do not trust God. Like what i did yesterday February 24 when rachel and liza refused to go with me in fishing and said that they were not in good spirit i showed my autocracy to them. Rachel is right when she said that if i wanted to become a good example to them i must do things prayerfully and make decision of faith even with or without them i must go to fishing and be faithful to God. I wanted to repent this sin i have and learn through this experience how to become a leader. I pray that i could have a gentle heart, full of patience and complete trust to wait for God to work in people’s heart. Thank you Dr. Ben for your heart to help us see our sin as a leader. God bless…

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By: Ben Toh

Sat, 26 Feb 2011 08:14:23 +0000

Thanks, Kyra. As I become an “older” sinner Christian, somehow the paternalistic and patriarchal sentiment in me begins to subtly creep in, which causes me to feel that those who are younger, or junior, or “less accomplished,” etc, ought to acknowledge my seniority, years of service, faithfulness, etc. Intellectually, I know that all that I am and all that I have done I owe entirely to the Grace of Jesus (1 Cor 15:10). But the devil has a way to arose pride in my heart to make me feel different from what I know in my head.

Thus, the fact that Jesus (not the human leader) is the Only Head of the Chruch is refreshing and humbling (Col 1:18; Eph 1:22), for it causes me to feel completely equal with everyone, even with my own 4 children, and now even with my 1 grandson. If anything, I am lower and less than them, because though I know more, yet I still sin, and even sin more! How much do I only need Jesus.

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By: Kyra

Sat, 26 Feb 2011 06:50:55 +0000

By: Ben Toh

Thu, 24 Feb 2011 02:27:02 +0000

Thanks, guys. Christy and I had a great time of fellowship with all of you. Remember the 3 prayer topics to read, speak English, and repent of inferiority. Even though you did not make a comment, please remember the 3 prayer topics and make a comment. =^.^= (This may be a Filipino cat!)

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By: UBF Phils.

Wed, 23 Feb 2011 11:25:29 +0000

Hi Dr. Ben, this is not a comment but we just want to say thank you so much for visiting us again and again, as God leads you. When you and Cristy left going to the airport without any of us accompanying you we were so worried but in our heart we just prayed that God may protect you. Thank God for using you in helping us understand the word of God. We are all refreshed and encouraged. May God grant you more wisdom in understanding His words. And thank you for bearing with all our noisiness, hot weather and our mosquito friends roaming anywhere. God bless. Brothers and sisters from Philippines.

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By: Ben Toh

Mon, 21 Feb 2011 03:44:09 +0000

Thanks, Bill.

Just a thought: I’m wondering if you might wish to submit an article to UBFrineds based on York’s book, and/or relate it to your experiences of a church split, which surely has shaped you and given you much wisdom in regards to life and church and people. I have to confess that I have somewhat of a selfish reason for suggesting this – then I may not have to add York’s book to my ever increasing list of “too many good books to read.” :-)

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By: Dr. Bill

Mon, 21 Feb 2011 03:01:23 +0000

Hi Ben. Dick York is indeed the missionary, but the book has been out for a long time – it must have been republished recently because I’ve had a copy for going on 15 years, and Dick, together with Molly Holt’s father (Holt Ministries in South Korea, active in adoption) and one other (Norwegian, I think) missionary, was used by God in a powerful revival that took place in the early sixties. He is probably in his seventies now.

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By: Ben Toh

Mon, 21 Feb 2011 02:49:52 +0000

Hi Ayra, I always praise and thank God the Father for the grace of Jesus and for the marvelous work of the Holy Spirit whenever I visit you guys! I thank God for the grace of Jesus in your heart, and that you use your multiple talents in music, dancing, studies, work and serving for the sake of Jesus and his kingdom. In my 30 years as a Christian, I’ve never personally witnessed and experienced a spiritual revival of the magniture and duration that has been happening in your midst. The reason that UP (University of the Philippines) Manila has experienced the severe persecution you experienced is because God is working mightily and Satan is very angry.

Your comments are anything but stupid. I say extreme and stupid things like “stupid” to make a point, and the point is to be courageous and bold to read, digest, discuss, write and comment. Because I often say extreme things, I am always in trouble, and very often being rebuked by my wife!

Thanks again for welcoming Christy and I, and for serving us far beyond what either of us deserve.

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By: ayra

Sun, 20 Feb 2011 12:46:06 +0000

hi, dr. ben! Following your directions, here goes my 1st comment..I don’t know if it’s stupid or not..I hope it will make sense.. :)
I agree with what you said that divisions happen when we forget that the head of the church is Jesus and we are just servants.. Same thing happens when we drift away from GRACE..1Cor.1:12-13 was very memorable to us, in our ministry..One of our former shepherdess decided to leave the ministry and I think the 4 C’s (complaining, comparing, competing, criticizing) were the culprits. We lost some of our sheep because of that. However, we praise God and we believe everything works for the good..Now, we’re back at our mission field..

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By: ayra

Sun, 20 Feb 2011 12:37:21 +0000

hi, dr. ben! (following your direction to read and write)..I agree with what you said, divisions happen when we forget that Jesus is the head of the church, when men’s strengths lent by God were exalted by mere creations. I think the same thing happens when we forget that it is all by GRACE that God has entrusted us responsibilities in the church..1 Cor.1:12-13 was very memorable to us, in our ministry in UP Manila because in some way, we have experienced division in our ministry, when one of our fruitful former shepherdess decided to leave the ministry..I think the 4 C’s (comparing, complaining,..I forgot the other two :) ) were also culprits..Because of that, we lost some of our sheep..However, we praise God that He has kicked us back to our mission field :)

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By: Ben Toh

Sun, 20 Feb 2011 12:09:13 +0000

By: david bychkov

Sun, 20 Feb 2011 06:01:04 +0000

exactly

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By: Ben Toh

Sun, 20 Feb 2011 00:34:52 +0000

Thanks, Bill. Now I have Broadbent’s book to add to my list of “too many books to read.” Sigh! :-)
Sorry to hear about your experiences with a church split/division. At the same time, it is encouraging to hear of the pioneering missionary who humbly took personal responsibility. I have to agree that reading and studying about the history of the church/gospel over the past 2,000 years surely helps us to be humble before God and man, whenever conflicts and disagreements arise in the church, since this is understandably, yet sadly, not a rare or unique event in the church. As you said, “nurturing strong biblical relationships with other churches” would be excellent.
As Joe’s current series of articles have suggested or implied (especially part IV), openly addressing the (cultural) conflicts between the pioneering missionaries and the indigenous converts/leaders would surely also help resolve conflicts in UBF that have been happening, but which have for the most part been hushed up, or the departing party being caricatured. Sorry, Bill, I need to learn how to say things better.

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By: Ben Toh

Sun, 20 Feb 2011 00:12:43 +0000

Thanks, Bill. I fully agree with a “pleurality of elders.” I had blogged about the verse you quoted in Acts 14:23 – http://westloop-church.blogspot.com/2010/12/paul-indigenization-policy-acts-142223.html
A true pleurality of leadership is surely spiritually healthy. Without it, autocracy or oligarchy rules the day. Surely, this happens in other churches as well, but I’m wondering what you think about the strong and seemingly overpowering influence of paternalism, patriachy and hierarchy in UBF? Likely, those who are used to it being the norm or accept it as the norm, won’t think that we have paternalism and hierarchy as unhealthy, and will even quote many bible verses and stories to support what we have termed “spiritual order.”

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By: Dr. Bill

Sat, 19 Feb 2011 23:39:25 +0000

By: Dr. Bill

Sat, 19 Feb 2011 23:20:47 +0000

I liked what one of your children said, Ben, about UBF being the only true church. I felt _exactly_ the same way about the church in which I was saved. And when (many years ago) division arose in that church, I was deeply troubled because I did not know where to turn. The division threatened to shake the very foundations of my faith because I, like a child, only knew the love of my ‘mother’ – the church in which I had been saved. So I was like a child who has lost his mother. But I remain grateful to this day because God provided a way for me to overcome this difficult challenge to my faith – I was able to reach out to one of the original missionaries who had preached the Gospel to the ‘founding fathers’ of the church. With great humility, he took responsibility for not clearly teaching the ‘founding fathers’ how to avoid division – in this case, by keeping a healthy interaction with other movements of the Gospel – other Christian churches. Since he had been a missionary for many years, and had like Paul ‘planted’ many churches, from him I began to see that the one true Gospel does indeed exist in more than just one church!! Praise God that He taught me this at this critical juncture in my life of faith! (I highly recommend one of his books, by the way: “God’s Eternal Purpose: The Making of Man in God’s Image”. It contains a very clear, concise presentation of the Gospel.) Another resource that helped me see the ‘historical’ perspective of the Gospel is a book by E H Broadbent, “The Pilgrim Church”. It is an excellent history of the Gospel for the past almost 2000 years.
What I learned from this ‘life history’ lesson was that one way to avoid divisions is to have a sense of history of the Gospel (and the many movements of the Gospel over the past 2000 years), and to develop and nurture strong Biblical relationships with other churches.

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By: Ben Toh

Sat, 19 Feb 2011 22:31:17 +0000

Thanks, David. I remember Joe sharing on Luke 17:3, and perhaps also Matt 18:15-17, where if there is any issue or problem, you should never blame others, but take personal responsibility to pray and deal with the issue or problem, whatever it is.

However, I realize that this is so difficult to put into practice, for many reasons. It takes much agonizing struggle, prayer and humility to do so. Otherwise, we will just withdraw in frustrated silence, or leave, as you suggested, or blow up when we can’t take it anymore.

Also, if you are younger, or junior, or the “sheep,” or not the leader, it is very difficult to speak up. I’ve often asked myself, “Why?” Others may disagree with me, but I’m thinking that UBF has such a strong and dominant culture of patriachy and hierarchy, that you cannot question your leader or the person “above you,” without being viewed or regarded negatively by the church at large. Still, according to Luke 17:3 and Matt 18:15-17, you are responsible to deal with the issue or problem, even if you feel like dying to bring something up that your seniors do not like.

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By: david bychkov

Sat, 19 Feb 2011 09:56:13 +0000

This is the work of the Holy Spirit. That is what giving us hope. Like Joe said in another article, both – leaders and those who are disagree should be humble enough to carefully listen to his witnesses. And each of us (I) should be faithful to Bible teaching – to struggle in order to live Christian life in both – truth and mercy, justice and love, courage and humbleness.
Once Joe raised up a question about Luke 17:3 or like this. And I always felt like sinner b/c of this passage. I thought and still somehow thinking – how to do this if in our community we are not used for practicing such relations. But it is really clear that Jesus gave this direction to me personally and will ask from me personally why I did not fulfilled his command, why I did not use it if he gave me this right and this command? Could I tell him – we were not used for doing this? I don’t think so. It is just one example. And so it is my responsibility to find out in the Bible with Spirit help what is true Christian life and to live according to it.
And I don’t think it is just UBF problem. Not at all. Like Stott wrote – many-many churches have it. So I really need to learn how to obey Jesus and Spirit. And yes I need to learn how to live true Christian life (how I understand it – Phil. 3:16) in the define church. (I should add here if it is possible…)

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By: Ben Toh

Sat, 19 Feb 2011 05:51:10 +0000

By: Noah

Sat, 19 Feb 2011 00:33:02 +0000

By: luke

Fri, 18 Feb 2011 04:18:43 +0000

Why do we have division?

I believe, division in churches happens because the church itself is made up of sinners. It is not buit for those people who do not commit sin and were in fact, it does not exist except Jesus Christ.

We are sinners. We have different personalities, opinions, and beliefs. We have out own interpretations in the Gospel that is why others neglect the teachings and live accordingly in their thoughts and perspective in life, etc.

Member for a church look “ideal” fellowship rather than “real” fellowship without knowing that their is no perfect church. But, it is okay to look for “ideal” fellowship? Dietrich Bonhoffer, a German pastor says “disillutionment with out local church is a good thing because it destroys our false expectations of perfection.
This beliefs or disillusions makes us immature to God.
As a member of a church, we are obliged to protect the church not to destroy it. And protecting the church is one of our purpose why we live here on earth. Each member of a church is important, one has unique characteristics and job to do. and if all members do their job and no members is meslead by htier selfish thoughts, the church will bocome strong. Like the Holy Trinity (The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit); all are different but ONE!
Rick Warren wrote about protecting the church in his famous book (the purpose driven life). You can read it, its on day 21 of his book entitled “Protecting your Church”. i hope it will help those who struggles in their fellowship.
God bless to all.

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By: Ben Toh

Thu, 17 Feb 2011 00:58:24 +0000

Thanks, David. I basically agree with your statement that “division is the only solution when there (is) no atmosphere of constructive opposition in the church.” I also agree with the 2 sad and unfortunate options you mentioned when a dissenting voice is suppressed from the top or from the leadership at large: either keep silent, or leave. As I heard someone once express it to another: “Are you in or are you out?” not gently, but angrily. The 3rd way you mentioned is obviously ideal and optimal. In your words, it is to build a “constructive opposition culture.”
But how do we practically even begin to do this when the 1st 2 options has been the SOP (standard operating procedure) for so long?

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By: Ben Toh

Thu, 17 Feb 2011 00:43:48 +0000

By: Ben Toh

Thu, 17 Feb 2011 00:21:24 +0000

Thanks, Matthew, for sharing how you strive to live vertically before God, and not horizontally before people.

A problem with the church in Corinth is that they saw their leaders humanly as super-apostles and as special elite elevated people. Through out history the church has inclined toward “hero worship” of their preferred church leader, thus obscuring that Jesus is the only True Head of the church. Paul himself would have none of it when he rebuked anyone in the church for communicating, “I follow Paul.”

Keep on “ventilating vertically.” Otherwise, you will be huffing horizontally!

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By: Ben Toh

Wed, 16 Feb 2011 21:16:20 +0000

Hi Grace,

Thank God for his grace to you, which communicates grace to others and to me as well. Surely, when grace prevails, our hearts are softened. But when human authority and seniority prevails, it becomes an unspoken and expected rule of law coming from the top to the bottom that cannot be questioned or discussed in any healthy, open or transparent way. Your ministry is lovely because your leaders lead by example in love and grace and transparency.

Ben

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By: david bychkov

Wed, 16 Feb 2011 15:30:47 +0000

I read the article once again and was thinking of this topic for a while. I want to add one more comment now. I think that the division is the only solution when there no atmosphere of constructive opposition in the church. So if any opposition is strongly suppressed at the very end there are just two ways for those who are disagree with the leader. One way is just to keep silence and follow suppressing your true feelings and opinions, in spite of what you do really believe and feel. The other way is to keep your opinion, to keep what you actually believe and…leave.
Or the third way is to build this constructive opposition culture.

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By: Grace

Wed, 16 Feb 2011 08:55:52 +0000

I’ve been in UBF since 5 or 7years old i think and I was one of the first CBF here in UBF Philippines. I’ve seen alot of struggles from different people how they lived inside the church. Actually one sheep said to me that no matter what happen she will not leave the bible house nor run away but after her shepherdess rebuke her she run away. Other people said that the reason of my stay and the reason why I serve the Altobar’s family was because they were my relatives but I also asked my self if this is my reason but when I looked back in the past I know in my heart that I really love Jesus and it is my thanks giving to shep. sarah for helping me to know Jesus personally. Through this I came to know the grace of Jesus , how he love and save me from my sin. serving others like altobar’s family, ubf family and you is like serving Jesus. I believe if they have known this grace there will be no division but love and care for everyone. thank you very much dr. ben for everything and for this encouraging article.
In Christ,
s. grace

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By: Matthew

Wed, 16 Feb 2011 06:55:13 +0000

In almost 5 years of my staying here in bible house I can’t deny the fact that I didn’t quarrel to
someone or to anyone since then I’m also a sinner who’s easily irritated and sometimes no self
control. In short it was them or me it’s not the case still I have no right to point anyone because
God said “love one another as you love yourself. Also I see is that family should overcome
what we so called three “C”( compete, compare and complain ). How can we do that? We must
learn to focus only to Jesus.,ask yourself..why do I need to do these things?For Jesus,..Why do I
need to go fishing? For Jesus..Always keep in mind that what we’re doing is not worth to Jesus
compared to what he had done to us. “He died in the cross for all of our sins”so nothing is to
brag about and boast, we are all sinners before God. Don’t think.., I’ve done great things than
him or shall we say I’m prettier than him so I deserve things more than him. In God we are all
the same. Yeah! before it’s more likely the way I think and even now. I always wanted to take
advantage with my co-workers which is not suppose to be, specially in getting the attentions of
shepherd William and shepherdess Sarah since they were like our parent to us. May God help
me to struggle in Him and not by man.What am trying to say is that in God we are all the same
that is why on the cross their was the horizontal line which symbolizes us and the vertical line
which is symbolizes Jesus. Meaning the center of our heart, mind and soul should be in Jesus so
that their is no divisions in the family. Please pray for me that I may repent before God.

Thank you Dr. Ben for the message

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By: Noah

Wed, 16 Feb 2011 02:43:13 +0000

In my own experience in terms of obedience, I tried my best to obey the rules of our Church. I feel good when I please the leaders. But through the example of Noah who faithfully obey God and Jacob who struggles with God, I learned that I must struggle with God and obey him more than the leaders for they are also a bunch of sinners and Jesus, our Lord and Father is the one who should be pleased and glorify. Rulings or ways of the Church and the Bible is what I consider manuals of our use, purpose, and right direction. If I weren’t so sinful, I would ignore the word of God. I will live in my own ‘right’ way. But because I do not know the way and I fear being trapped in my evil ways, what can I do to get out of it?
Regarding the divisions, in our own time, divisions happens when one gossips or one hated the other or one destroys the other. The Church is supposed to be a good spiritual environment for which the Holy Spirit could freely move. Divisions happens when one disagrees with another and like you said in your article, having the “elitist mentality.” I also have that same feeling which I am eager to overcome. I know my faith is young and there is much more in my spiritual life that I need to learn.
Thanks for your article. I liked it very much.

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By: Ben Toh

Tue, 14 Dec 2010 14:07:46 +0000

Well said, Andy. In addition to citing Heb 13:7 and David’s respect of Saul as the Lord’s annointed, you could add God punishing Miriam with leprosy for disrespecting Moses, and God punishing Ham for disrespecting Noah, and countless other examples where God honored his chosen servant.

But as you aptly pointed out, this does not mean that the Christian leader can demand unqestioning obedience and respect from his subordinates, just as a Christian husband must NEVER demand his wife’s submission to him. Rather, the husband must love his wife like Christ loved the church, until her joy is to willingly submit to her husband because of his love and gentleness.

Likewise, the weight of responsibility is not really in the obedience of the younger, but in the Christian leader being humble like Jesus, until the “sheep” hear their shepherd’s voice and are willingly happy to obey.

Yes, surely, the church is called to respect her leaders. But our leaders are also sinners, which means that they are not infallible, and should also be subject to accountability to a board of elders to prevent autocracy, which invariably kills the spirit of the church.

As Stott said in Calling Christian leaders, his observation in every continent where he has preached is that church leaders are often like the Corinthian church leaders who expected to be regarded as elite elevated “super-apostles,” whose word and directives are law. If this happens regular church members soon feel like disempowered followers of men, who are not allowed to take the initiave freely by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. As a saying goes, “Where there is control, church growth stops” and vice versa.

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By: Dr. Bill

Sat, 11 Dec 2010 20:15:59 +0000

Amen!

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By: Andy

Fri, 10 Dec 2010 17:04:19 +0000

Sometimes leaders might point to certain examples of obedience to human leaders in the Scriptures to justify demanding obedience to themselves. Probably the most prominent one is Heb 13:17, but people could also appeal to David’s respect for Saul as God’s anointed, even when Saul was obviously off his rocker and not following God at all!

I think it’s wrong for leaders to use these verses and examples to enforce obedience to themselves, just as it is wrong for a husband to point out to his wife that the Bible says women are supposed to submit to their husbands. (You might say it’s also not helpful for a woman to point out that her husband isn’t loving her as Christ loved the church.) Instead we should each do our best to do God’s will given our own positions and roles in relationships, and pray for each other to also follow God’s will.

But there is something to be said for submitting to one another in the Lord. The Biblical principle, it seems to me, is that submitting to authority is good UNLESS it contradicts submitting to God’s authority. A willingness to put aside our own way in non-essential matters in order to work together with each other is not always a bad thing, as long as all parties are being accorded genuine respect, which includes respect for each person’s freedom, as people have mentioned. If we can’t submit to each other at all, how can there ever be harmony in a community?

The problem emerges I think when leaders start demanding submission to themselves from others and stop focusing on their responsibility before God to humbly serve those under their care. I think it’s a very good point – and one we in leadership positions need to think about seriously – that we should be doing our best to help others to obey Christ (“teaching them to obey everything I [Christ] have commanded you” – Mt 28:20).

If people only learn to obey their human leaders, but not to deeply and radically be obedient to Christ, they will not be able to stand up in the time when their faith is tested, because their faith will be based on imperfect human beings. In that way, human leaders can even become idols. Everything that hinders us from fully devoting every aspect of ourselves to Christ himself should be removed, and this should be our concern and prayer for each other. God is a jealous God! May God help us to understand what it means to help people be obedient to Christ, beginning with ourselves.

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By: GerardoR

Mon, 22 Nov 2010 03:45:38 +0000

Why do we have divisions? Satan.
What can we do about it? Join the Arch-angles in fighting against satan for the Glory of Christ and his kingdom.

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By: David L

Sat, 20 Nov 2010 00:29:04 +0000

Dr. Ben, I couldnt help but laugh when I read the tooth ache story! Glad it wasnt me with the tooth ache, I would have been like “what dude?!? are you crazy?! Give me some pain pills and Ill be there doc!” But Im sure he forgives you buddy. Great article! Jesus is the True Shepherd, when we “under shepherds” realize that is what we are, we will be much better off!

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By: Ben Toh

Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:46:15 +0000

Thanks, Mark. At the recent Lausanne conference, Tim Keller said that if we Christian leaders truly want to evangelize the cities of the world with her multiple diverse cultures and nationalities, we should decide that we will ALWAYS have conflict because of our cultural differences. Also, we should always be working toward some kind of mutual understanding. Otherwise, we will just increase our own tribe of cultural Christian preference.

Sometimes, without realizing it, I surely “impose” my cultural preference in the name of Jesus and the Bible over others, and surely others of a different culture do the same to me.

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By: Ben Toh

Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:35:20 +0000

By: Hannah Love

Thu, 11 Nov 2010 19:18:55 +0000

Great article!
As a second gen of UBF missionaries I struggled with this a lot.
A few months ago this issue of leadership and being God’s chosen servant came up. It was suggested (and kind of forced at the same time) that I should be involved with something. It wasn’t something I wanted to do but I prayed about it anyways. When someone asked me if I was going to obey, I said I don’t know because I don’t know if its what God wants me to do. I was told that I was being disobedient and that since the leader is God’s chosen servant, I should do what he told me to do.
This disturbed me and bothered me. Am I really supposed to follow a MAN and his direction from my life when I didn’t feel any conviction from the Lord?
Thank God because HE made it clear for me as to what I should do with my future. I became aware, though, of the problem of following certain leaders and/or pastors. It leads to division because people are not all alike.
This was a good reminder for leaders everywhere to be more aware of what they do and how they participate in God’s mission.

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By: Gideon Sherwin

Thu, 11 Nov 2010 15:15:36 +0000

By: Mark

Wed, 10 Nov 2010 16:55:44 +0000

By: rpl0264

Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:38:08 +0000

Great post! The gospel is NOT what we do for God, but what God DID for us. So that absolutely NO ONE CAN BOAST!!! This authoritarian form of leadership is not sustainable in any ministry. People will feel burden that they didn’t live up to a certain standard. On the other those who feel they live up to this misguided standard, will just become proud and arrogant.

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