“It was about bringing people into your fellowship to get your 1:1 numbers up so that you would get stars next to your name on the big chart on the wall,”

In the 1990’s and 2000’s in Toledo ubf, we only had charts for conference registrations. Same concept though; more praise for more stickers! But some of us considered star stickers to be too proud. So we used colored dots usually :) I do remember the 1:1 charts though, and offering charts, brazenly shared on the walls of the old house in Toledo used as a meeting place (until zoning laws stepped in).

“…and so that you would be praised and treated as exemplary instead of getting rebuked when SL gave his announcements at the end of every meeting.”

Yes, same here. Even though it was not SL, the Korean chapter directors all tended to try to be SL and do similar things. In our case, it was sometimes the announcements at the end of every daily meeting, but mostly it was the rebuke in the Sunday lecture/announcements that we feared. The Friday announcements were also brutal. The shame and guilt was laid on so heavy at the mandatory Friday “testimony sharing” meeting (which was 3 to 6 hours long).

During many of those we prayed in multiple groups: 0 fishing group, 1 fishing group and 2 or more fishing group. Sometimes this was the number of fishing attempts you made. Other times it was the number of bible studies you had that week. We always had to set the group numbers so low because only 1 or 2 “shepherds” actually made progress in the fishing realm. The biggest group was always the 0 group. This is clearly because fishing is recruiting, and not many are skilled at recruitment.

“And it was about making you (the one who goes fishing) feel good about yourself, so that you could tell yourself that you really did love God, that you were a real disciple”

At first fishing was like this for me. It made me feel good. But then it became an escape. Two good things happened when I went “fishing” every week: 1) the pressure was off my back and I could move out of the 0 group 2) I could think for myself. Almost always I just wondered campus aimlessly for 30 minutes. This allowed me to count toward my quota and not actually have to endure the embarrassment of recruiting. I did love the ubf lifestyle at one point, but the continual demands turned my heart to feel so ashamed and not want anyone to come to the events we had ad nauseam.

Many discussions about fishing (is it good or bad?) sound strange to me, because they beg the question of what the fishing is meant to accomplish. Fishing is just a tool, and it can be used for different purposes. Some have tried to portray fishing as a kind of street evangelism: you go out and tell people about Jesus, you invite them to Bible study so they can hear about Jesus. But in practice, it was really about inviting people to ubf activities and events, hoping to enlist them into ubf-style discipleship so that they would eventually become “leaders” (euphemism for obedient followers) in the group. It was about bringing people into your fellowship to get your 1:1 numbers up so that you would get stars next to your name on the big chart on the wall, and so that you would be praised and treated as exemplary instead of getting rebuked when SL gave his announcements at the end of every meeting. And it was about making you (the one who goes fishing) feel good about yourself, so that you could tell yourself that you really did love God, that you were a real disciple, a hard core believer, not one of those lazy/namby-pamby/nominal/cultural Christians who do nothing except go to church on Sunday.

Deep down, this is what I had always found problematic about the whole thing. Ministry leaders, beginning with SL, constantly pressured us to go to campus and bring people as a sign of our obedience to God. But to what were we bringing them? I could never really get into fishing because, at a subconscious level, I found many aspects of the ubf enterprise embarrassing. I was embarrassed the discipleship methods (submission to weird kinds of “training”, deciding who and when you marry), the quality of its Bible study (repetitive, simplistic, juvenile slogans, being told to just accept), the attitudes and character of its people (judgmental, elitist, bragging about how humble they were), and the pressure to conform (wearing certain kinds of clothes, speaking in konglish, sharing a testimony that sounds just like everyone else’s, lest you get labeled as proud or rebellious). If ubf had reflected more of the qualities of God’s kingdom, I would have been more eager to bring people on my own. The fact that ubf leaders have to continually exhort members to go fishing is a sign that members really don’t want to bring more people to ubf, and for good reasons.

(1) I did not like David Kim’s lecture when I heard it a few years ago. It’s what I would call a “cringe factor.” I’m very very sorry that he is still giving it. His lecture, which in my opinion was rather long and tedious, could be delivered in a few seconds: “Keep on fishing and never give up fishing, even if countless students reject your Bible study invitation.”

(2) Some senior leaders in UBF (who I don’t think have gone fishing for some time/years/decades) love David Kim’s imperative driven lecture to keep on fishing, which underlings and foot soldiers in UBF are expected to do.

(3) That said, I’ve known David Kim for almost three decades. He is a really nice, friendly, genuine and unoffensive person. He himself truly believes in the UBF paradigm of “go fishing until you drop.” Most importantly, he himself avidly goes fishing regularly even though he is in his 50s, I think. He is also pretty good and natural at approaching students, without them feeling offended.

(4) I would have to say that personally fishing is not my gifting. My rate of “success” over two decades might be closer to 0.1%!!! That’s why I’m personally done with fishing.

For any ubf missionary: Don’t come to America from Korea and ignore our breaking-and-entering laws. Don’t come to America from Korea and ignore our zoning laws. Don’t come to America from Korea and skirt around our non-profit laws (how does a non-profit earn over $900K profit in 2013?)

If you are going to disrespect this land, get on a boat and go back to your land.

Really? I think that burden is clearly the city officials and neighbor complaints!!!!

Of course we know that the very fact of asking the question IS the problem at ubf.

Speaking of DK… some people ought to come clean about the legal issues surrounding the old DuPage chapter. The rare glimpse into a ubf public interaction is hilarious:

Public comments about ubf (this is public comments from neighbors when the city of Glen Ellen shut down the DuPage ubf chapter for meeting illegally. There was a sudden, odd “pioneering” after this event. See for yourself…)

Last year, in 2014, about once a month someone contacted me to share their story of leaving ubf. In 2015, we are on the same pace. One person already contacted me in January, sharing how thankful they were for my blog and the warning about making any serious commitment at ubf.

“Fruitful fishing was discussed on the third day. According to the statistics only one out of three hundred people (0.3%) in preaching is connected to one to one Bible study. We may develop many methods of fishing, but we must have faith, for fruitful fishing ministry may be done by faith in God. We were so much interested in fruitful fishing ministry that we wanted to go on the discussion until midnight, but the session was stopped at 10:30 p.m. for the next day.”

I read these from time to time for comical relief. It is literally astounding and breathtakingly sad that such things are STILL being reported in 2015!

The reality is only .3% will put up with what one ubf leader calls the the most important sign of fruitful bible study: getting a boil on your butt as evidence of deep bible study….

I guess I was wrong. 0.3% is enough.

http://ubf.org/world-mission-news/oceania/cme-ministry-macquarie-ubf-australia

That’s a big question that comes to my mind when I see Korean shepherds/missionaries that walks around the campus to invite students to bible study. I’m thinking… what is their goal: to evangelize them or to recruit them to UBF? As I heard from some UBF hardliners, UBF is where they’re blessed so others should go to UBF. At the same time, they disregards other churches.

It really begs the BIG question: Should UBFers “fish for people” (Lk 5:10) to convert them to Christ, or to convert them to adopt the “UBF system of discipleship training”?

My Korean shepherdess also told me I needed to invite 100 people in order to find one to study the Bible with. But she did not perceive it as a problem. It just meant I should go more often to the campus and invite more people to find that one person. The fact that I am an introvert did not matter, I just needed to “deny myself” so I could do anything for the glory of God. In fact I was even successful in finding several people who studied the Bible with. They enjoyed the Bible study, but I failed to convert them into UBF members. The solution of my Korean shepherdess was to “dump” such people who were not willing to make visible steps to become UBF shepherds after. I later met some of them, and they told me how much they felt abandoned by God. She quoted Lk 13 in this context: “Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?” By doing so, she sent the message that their lives were meaningless and their souls were lost. There were many such people who somehow were catched by UBF, but then were dumped or left UBF on their own because they were hurt or abused. I call such people the “by-catch” of UBF fishing. Often the “by-catch” is more than the “targeted species” (both in UBF and in real fishing). Particularly when the targeted species is very rare, such as elite students who are willing to undergo the boring, mind-numbing and humiliating UBF training and subdue to authoritarian Korean leaders. Nobody wants to speak about the by-catch. Not in UBF, and not in real life. Often the by-catch is thrown over board back into the ocean in an injured and stressed condition that does not allow them to survive. But nobody cares.

I love your 3 points in this article Joe.

1. The early church did not grow through intensive fishing, evangelistic outreach and membership drives.

2. The mandate for carrying the gospel to the world in Acts 1:8, which we often call “the world mission command,” is not a command but a promise.

3. The apostle Paul never counseled an entire church to go out and work hard to evangelize the non-believing world.

To that I say Hallelujah and Amen!

In our experiences at Penn State, one of the biggest barriers to making relationships with people — one of the main reasons why fishing seemed to be so ineffective — was that UBF had a well known reputation for authoritarian practices and cultlike tendencies. Most students had never heard of UBF. But as soon as they googled us, they were confronted with all kinds of evidence that getting involved with us would be bad news. It caused many of them to run, run, run away as fast as they could. And who can blame them? If someone invited my son or daughter to a church activity, I would hope that they would do the same.

In my opinion, the fact that UBF leaders have done essentially nothing to clean up the ministry and address these abuses for more than four decades is unconscionable.

Most UBF leaders have never taken the time to look at the anti-ubf material on the internet to see what the critics are saying. They call it lies, slander, garbage, persecution. They say they will never look at it, because it is a waste of their time and they need to get back to “God’s work” of fishing and 1:1 ministry. But all that criticism of ubf is freely available for anyone to see, has a continuous negative impact on everything that they try to do in the name of ubf. Even if all the anti-ubf material were completely false (and trust me, it isn’t), wouldn’t they still want to know what is there, so that they could understand how to properly answer the questions that students raise?

I suggest that every chapter director and fellowship leader examine these websites carefully, looking for places where they and their chapters are mentioned, to understand how some people have experienced their so-called love and care. When I first looked at those websites and read what former members had said about me, it was painful and eye-opening.

As I shared my concerns with the director, he said that it is not a problem to change the name of the chapter. LOL. I don’t want to deceive anyone, and I can’t deceive myself. ubf is ubf. The change of name will not change anything except adding some more lie and hypocrisy. I’d like to share the Christ without any necessity to defend a cult. That’s why I am happy now to be in a healthy church and to share the gospel freely.

Have Evangelicals Gotten Evangelism Wrong? 12 Challenges.

Terry, thank you for this comment. I agree with it wholeheartedly.

If the purpose of forming relationships with people and loving them is to convert them to Christ, bring them to our church, etc. then we’ve gotten the whole thing backwards. People can smell such attitudes from a mile away and it makes them want to run.

For me, the test of Christian relational integrity is this: “Am I willing to befriend this person and love him just the same whether he decides to come to my church or not?”

And another question that I like to ask is this: “If I am going to share my faith with this person with the hope that he might come to believe as I do, am I willing to reciprocate? Will I listen attentively to him and be ready to learn from him, taking his views so seriously that I might even allow him to convert me?”

If the answers to those questions are “No,” then it’s obvious that I am not interested in pursuing a loving friendship with this person. Rather, I am only interested in having a teacher/student relationship, with me seated at the teacher’s desk. There is a time and place for teaching and mentorship. But if I approach the people I meet with the attitude that I am going to be their teacher rather than their friend, it is prudent for them to run, run, run away from me as fast as they can, because I am not the kind of person that they should trust.

Love needs no other agenda. Love itself should be the agenda.

People do not encounter Jesus by looking up Bible references, by answering questions on a question sheet, and by being taught what the “right” answers are. They encounter Jesus when they sense that the church community loves them now and values them for who they are today (people in the image of God), not for what they might become in the future (committed members of the church).

I’m laughing right now, because a young girl that my wife and I study with at UCLA just texted my wife asking about how best to clean her tub… lol… Mari is busy preparing for her work tomorrow, so I just told her to use the Mr. Clean Magic Erasure’s. I find it amusing that I can even be asked about such a small matter. I feel very grateful and thankful that she would seek our advice over such a thing. She’s from China so she doesn’t know what the best product to clean with is. I hope she finds the Magic Erasure’s do the trick for her… One of our coworkers brothers works for the company (or did, I think he still does) that makes them and she told me to use them and I loooove them… :-)

I really like your musings and questions. I want to really ‘chew’ on them and really think about what you have posted. Thank you! :-) But I will say this, in the past I found very few people responding to Bible study, they would come and study for a while, but they would leave after a while. I found it very unproductive and I was really unsure what the problem was. But I soon realized that I was like an old wine skin trying to serve students the Gospel in the same way that I had been served. The problem was that it wasn’t resonating with students. So I learned that I needed to be real, honest and genuine and not have an agenda and have a real concern about others welfare and be willing to genuinely sacrificially serve them with God’s love, giving my time, energy, and resources without ever thinking about the cost (that does not mean to make myself poverty stricken or to use my every waking second or to neglect my family for the sake of others, but it means to be reasonable with myself and give what I can and do so with a heart of joy and God’s love without any agenda). I didn’t ever ask students to answer a question sheet, and honestly I didn’t study in advance. I didn’t ask them to write testimony’s, I don’t write them. I didn’t ask them to do anything at all. If they could meet great, if they couldn’t that’s great. It didn’t matter. Strangely, when I started being reasonable with students, percentage was much better than .03%. I love it when I haven’t been to campus in a while and I go to Jamba Juice to get a couple drinks and there is a young girl who works there would always ask me, “How are you? I haven’t seen you in a while?” She also knows what I do and we have become familiar with each other and friendly to one another, but I have not asked her to study the Bible. But who knows? Maybe in the future. :-)

For me ‘fishing’ has become alot more than just going to campus to invite students to Bible study. It does mean to me to reach out with God’s love to those that are in my everyday life. Whether, I meet them at the supermarkert or bank or gym or while ordering a London Fog at Starbucks. I still see the campus of UCLA as my primary area of concern, but not the only. Not by a long shot.

And to go one further, as far as ‘growing’. I no longer see it as people who come or don’t come to our Sunday Worship service or even if I ever study the Bible with them even one time. I now try to be real with people wherever I am at and I listen to them and I build friendships and relationships, with the hope that I can share Christ with them. Of course, I don’t try and steer the conversation to that direction, but I am always ready to share Christ as opportunity presents itself. I always hope that I might meet them in the future and build a real relationship with them, but again, I don’t force it.

Not to long ago, Mari and I and one of our students were out for lunch at a place called Freash Cutt Carving Grill. We were in line to order when these two young men came up to us, who were further along in the line, and he asked me if my name was Terry. I was surprised and wondered how he knew my name. I felt so embarrassed, because we had obviously met before, but I couldn’t remember where. We got to talking and he told me that he was a bank teller at my bank and that he remembered me, because we had talked so often. But I had stopped going into the bank like two years before and shamefully I forgot about him. But strangely he remembered me.

Over the course of seeing him many times, I had shared with him many things, including that I am a Christian and that I studied the Bible with students at UCLA. Well, he remembered me and he wanted to say, “Hi” to me and my wife and that he wondered how things were going at UCLA with the students and ironically, the person we were having lunch with was one of those students. So I turned to the student we were at lunch with and asked him if he would like to answer him and I smiled.

We talked for a while and I was thinking of asking for his phone number, but he shared with me that he had recently got an internship with a TV company and he was soon moving to New York. So I decided not to. But I believe if he was staying I could have gotten together with him in the future and developed a more meaningful friendship and who knows perhaps Bible study. But it didn’t work that way and I don’t feel any sense of loss about it. I shared before about the woman at the Supermarket next door, who recently asked me to study the Bible with her son. I don’t think growth is numbers. I think growth is something else. I think it’s helping people to be restored into a right (or proper) relationship with their Heavenly Father and to know Christ as Lord and Savior. Whether they ever come to UBF is irrelevent to me. Of course, I still go to campus and I still invite students to study the Bible, and it is the primary way that I get to study the Bible together with others, but it’s not the only way.

“4. Campus Evangelism and the Ministry of the Word

We serve witnessing and fishing at Perm Engineering College and Perm Arts College on Saturdays and Sundays. After moving, we witnessed at Perm Education College too. As a result, I started 1:1 with a student whom I met in July. He was a freshman named Ruslan. He only solved question #1 with me and left when his friend called him. I was so happy to have a 1:1 with a new sheep at the new mission field. I had confidence in serving gospel ministry at this new place and looked up at the field that is ripe for harvest at Perm. From the pioneering stage, we have served one sheep named Stephen with 1:1. He dropped out of college and joined the army. He was discharged from the army and tried to find a job at Perm. Now he has gone back to his home town. His friend, Koscha is a college junior. He received my call very well. I lost my former fiery spirit and did not serve sheep wholeheartedly. Another reason is my two children are in eight and ninth grades and I spend lots of time and energy on my children. I pray that I may deny myself in order to help one sheep and seek his kingdom and his righteousness first. I confess that I was lacking in witnessing and teaching God’s word. By God’s grace we could come near campus and move to a good house church. I was self-conscious about my preaching at our house church. We always had a Sunday worship with our family only. So our children, Andrew and Daniel pushed us to invite sheep actively. This year, we studied Genesis and John. My recent important prayer topic is to prepare wonderful messages. In order to write good messages, I read many books and attended seminars in Korea. But my co-worker suggested that I not be too stressed out, but digest God’s servant’s messages and deliver them, and spend more time in witnessing instead. Even if there is a great message, it is of no use if there are no listening ears. Messages are for listeners. Therefore, I found the direction that I may read and digest the messages of God’s servants well and focus on witnessing. We pray to establish twelve 1:1’s this year. We pray to raise one Abraham and 30 Sunday Worship attendants by 2015. Our 2013 New Year’s key verse is Acts 6:4 “ and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word.” I realized that only through prayer and the power of the Word can I serve the pioneering ministry. Whenever I have time, I pray that I may focus on daily bread, meditation of words, and prayer and challenge the 2013 pioneering ministry”.

Source : http://www.ubf.org/content/perm-ubf-mission-report-russia-0

Interestingly, there has been some changes in the way John 4 has been dealt in UBF. For example, when I was a young bible student, typically one message of the major conference would be “Jesus, the living water.” In times, it was changed to “Jesus offers the living water.” There is a lot of difference in the plain meaning of the two titles. Personally, I also knew that taking together John 4 & 7, the “living water” refered to the Holy Spirit and sometimes used it as a passing reference in my bible teachings. However, I am yet to come across someone clearly declaring the “living water” in John 4 to be God the Holy Spirit, especially in a UBF conference message. That was my issue with David Kim in one of India ABC.

In John 4, I love meeting Jesus as the Christ and our sins being forgiven by a loving and kind Savior who handles delicate issues (sins) of our life with gentleness and much patience. But there is much more to knowing Jesus as my Savior and sins being forgiven or getting involved with a outreach programme. One could be “thirsty” even after knowing Jesus, the forgiveness of sins, and a busy life of mission. I repeatedly find the New Testament christianity as “REPENT your sins, BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus, and RECEIVE the Holy Spirit,” in contrast to what we normally preach in the evangelical circle “RECEIVE Jesus.” We can’t receive Jesus because He is not here! But He certainly sent the Holy Spirit to be received by those who pur their faith in Him.
I find such alternative interpretation of biblical truths very exhilarating and that is one of the reason I keep visiting ubfriends.:) Not necessarily all alternative interpretations however are always true, but we miss out so much if we stick to just one, isn’t it? I would prefer not-so-perfect doctrine with an exhilarating life over perfect doctrine with a boring life.

And, thanks Brian, we do have some parallels and glory be to God for that.

The 3rd most searched term that leads people to ubfriends, is “Holy Spirit”. I really thank God for this website’s discussions on the Holy Spirit. I used to think that the Spirit was just an energy force. Then I started to think the Spirit is simply a helper to God, like an angel. 

Through ubfriends articles and other discussions, I now realize how wrong such thinking is. The Holy Spirit is God, and not just a helper role, but has a primary role in creation and redemption, from Genesis to Revelation. 

I think we all need to remember Scriptures teaching about who the Spirit is (God), how the Spirit works, and whole range of sin regarding Him. Once I understood the gospel correctly as the good news of the grace of forgiveness of sins, I could begin to understand the primary role the Spirit plays in my life. The Spirit’s indwelling is not a helper to us only, but such indwelling is in fact the whole mystery of God: Christ in you Colossians 1:27. If we miss this, we miss the essence of what Christ prayed for and what His commands are all about.

For most of my “Christian” life I felt as if God was beside me or above me. Only when I surrendered to the grace of God did I find that God was inside me. Only when I repented of resisting and grieving the Holy Spirit did I discover Christ in me. So now prayer is not some long distance call to God in heaven, but a continual discussion with Christ in me.

Here is a good overview I found last year about the Holy Spirit. (And Abraham, you are correct in your thinking about the living water.)

Ways to sin against the Spirit:

a. We can resist the Spirit – Acts 7:51
b. We can quench the Spirit – 1 Thessalonians 5:19
c. We can grieve the Spirit – Ephesians 4:30
d. We can insult the Spirit – Hebrews 10:29
e. We can blaspheme the Spirit – Matthew 12:31-32

Ways the Holy Spirit works:

a. Revealing and confirming the Word of Truth – Hebrews 2:3-4
b. Convicting hearts of sin through the Word – John 16:7
c. Regenerating those who respond to the gospel – John 3:5
d. Indwelling those who obey the gospel – Acts 2:38; 1 Corinthians 6:19
e. Leading those who walk in the Spirit – Galatians 5:16-18,25
f. Producing the fruit of the Spirit in those so led – Galatians 5:22-23
g. Strengthening those seeking to please God – Ephesians 3:16
h. Serving as a seal, marking Christians as God’s own – Ephesians 1:13
i. Serving as an earnest (guarantee) of our inheritance – Ephesians 1:14

source: http://executableoutlines.com/hs/hs_12.htm

I had a sharp agreement with one of the prominent Korea UBF leader regarding the Holy Spirit and somehow this triggered my exit from UBF among other reasons. He did not let me preach in a conference that the “living water” Jesus offered in John 4 could be the Holy Spirit, because the mention of Holy Spirit “would create confusion to the audience!”

As per “fishing” and “multiplication” is concerned, no wife bears child on her own without spending intimate moments with her husband. So also our ability to multiply and make disciples. The Holy Spirit is not the “doer” but “helper.” He likes to help if we reconginze and take the intiative to do things by seeking His help. So, it is my prayer that someday UBF would give the Holy Spirit the place He deserves in their organizational structure and even recognize and honor the life changing supernatural elements/experiences He brings to a ministry or a person regardless of the inability to explain His works intellectully.

So, yes we really need to depend on the Holy Spirit to guide us and empower us to live our lives and be Jesus in all aspect of our lives. And that includes the miraculous signs that Jesus performed that brought many souls to encounter Heaven while Jesus and the Apostles were around. 

I agree with this statement from the original post here: “Instead of assuming that it’s okay to sift through massive numbers of students to find the 0.3 percent that can remain among us, perhaps it’s time to stop, reflect upon ourselves, and consider how to reach at least some portion of the other 99.7 percent.”

That kind of attitude would be in my response to the issues raised in this post. However, I have mixed feelings in seeing how UBF is responding. On one hand there are some good indications, such as The Well event. On the other hand, I see a desire to force the .3 percent to work harder. So in other words, the .3 percent must be enough (or so the thinking goes).

The .3 percent are being encouraged to be noble conquerors (as evidenced by the new style group photos with everyone doing a fist-pump, as well as the sudden emphasis on 1 Timothy and Numbers verses).

One chapter actually marched around a campus for a week and shouted at the end (like at Jericho). Another chapter had everyone jump around and shake (kind of like a joke), as a way to practice for being filled with the Holy Spirit. Such things don’t bode well for the future health of an organization desperately clinging to the .3 percent.

http://www.outofur.com/archives/2012/01/9_reasons_not_t.html  

I for one say it is high time for UBF to stop the empire building mentality. But of course this contradicts the new year key verse direction to “conquer the land” from the book of Numbers. 

Often I thought that if Jeremiah was evaluated by the growth and increase of numbers of his ministry and influence, he would be regarded as a “rotten” prophet, because his entire nation went down the sewer during his years of service.

I remember being segregated into 3 or 4 groups during prayer meetings: those with 0 sheep, those with 1 to 3 sheep and those with more than 3 sheep (and sometimes a specially chosen group).  It was so very burdensome. I was SO happy when I moved from the 0 group to the 1 to 3 group. But then I became depressed when I had to move back to the 0 group. As you know all too well, I could fill up much of this blog with similar stories, but I’ll stop here.

Reading comments like yours above, and seeing such truth in writing, does wonders for my psychological well-being (which I’m finding will take many years to become re-centered on the grace of Jesus). We need to hear more of this! 

While praying to “increase in numbers,” I read these very interesting and insightful quotes by Leslie Newbigin: “There is no evidence (in the teaching of the New Testament) that the numerical growth of the church is a matter of primary concern.”

Though we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10), Newbigin wrote, “this nowhere appears as either an anxiety or an enthusiasm about the numerical growth of the church.”

 Good intentions and back-breaking efforts are not enough; they need to be seasoned with wisdom and shrewdness.

Your posting brought Ben’s post above on the CT arcticle to my attention (I had missed it before). That article is quite good: “Learning to Count to One”. I need to learn to count to one.

And I am glad to read Joshua Yoon’s comments above about being sensitive to the Spirit’s leading. God can indeed do things we never imagined.

So, I was thinking about what you wrote and I wondered whether the early church even knew WHO, or WHAT the Holy Spirit was (is)? Or if the typical evangelized dude was even CONSCIOUSLY AWARE that he was being used by the Holy Spirit to help the early church grow in massive numbers?

They were probably just so thrilled with having the Gospel, you know. Something like a new medical discovery maybe. It was as if now, regular human beings can FINALLY have a relationship with God, despite their sins. Like, “I CAN FINALLY HAVE A SPIRITUAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD NOW? THIS IS SWEEEET”. You know, just that excitement; and they tell everyone they know.

I strongly believe that personal development in God is the most essential part of anyone’s life. That’s the main focus for me anyway, to follow Jesus, and to always GROW as a Christian, every day, you know. Because not only is that the ultimate thing in life, period…but, it inspires you to genuinely want to spread the gospel. And I think people our age value authenticity.

I agree with the overflow of knowledge from Bible Study and messages. I find that a lot of people, including myself, are FLOODED with new concepts, new ideas every Sunday. They just don’t know how to deal with all this information at once, and can’t apply what they learned to their personal lives. That’s why you see a lot of stagnant Christians. I’m starting to change that though in my life, and I actually started practically applying things every day to the best of my ability. So hopefully the things I learn “stick”, and gradually my habits change, etc.

Anyway, I’m off to class, gonna ace this Business exam hopefully!!

-james

I know that this would be an incredibly hard thing to change at UBF in particular because the unique culture and style there is so ingrained, but I think that ya’ll should at least be open to change that stuff. The thing that really matters is the Gospel, everything other than that is secondary should be ready to be discarded if it doesnt work or is a stumbling block to salvation. I even think that One to One Bible studies should be thought of as secondary in terms of their format, why not small groups sometimes? etc.

I feel that this article opens up so many ideas and topics we are all curious about.
The biggest one being the Holy Spirit.
I guess we can think of so many different ideas and how to reach out and evangelize, but without the Holy Spirit we’re doomed.
I love the book of Acts. I realized that I need to learn about the ACTS of the Holy Spirit and trust that God will work that way today rather than look at the acts of the HUMANS at that time. Everything they did was by the power and leading of the Holy Spirit.

Maybe we’ll need to have a whole new thread on this alone. Without the Holy Spirit we will just become bloated Christians with so much knowledge from Bible study and messages.

Many biblical figures were said to constantly be filled with the Holy Spirit. Why? Because they leaked for a variety of reasons. Taking a step back seems like a great idea for growing deeper in a relationship with Christ. Jesus often took time away from his disciples to pray by himself. I hope that you will find your refuge in the wounds of his sacred heart. You will be in my prayers.

First of all, I’m a second-gen “missionary”, and I’ve pretty much participated, seen, heard, witnessed, and felt everything at our church and lots of other chapters as well.

Personally, I too have felt that our chapters tend to have a “business-like model” when it comes to church, in general. It’s like we need to meet a quota for the month or the boss isn’t gonna be happy. I’ve always thought about this, and have written about it alot in my journal because I’m just not “down” with this (as in I don’t completely agree with this mindset). Please hear me out.

We should want to bring more people to church because WE GENUINELY WANT TO. Have you ever had that feeling when you’ve experienced something so amazing YOU JUST HAD TO TELL SOMEONE? That passion, that energy that just makes people go “Wow, I wanna be apart of THAT!”.

I don’t know for sure, but I think that’s the sort of thing that inspires people to CHANGE. To leave their destructive habits of sin and to pursue a new, better life. Being born again, striving to become the best Christian they can be. Slightly off topic but, I strongly feel that it’s essential to always GROW as a Christian. A stagnant Chrisitan that isn’t growing does not bless others with that raw inspiration and excitement.

I actually have a really cool vision of Christian churches adopting a “self-help” kind of structure to their ministries. We need more practical advice, support and community. Let me give you an example of what I mean…

A few weeks ago, our church studied a passage on meditating on God’s word DAY AND NIGHT; so that we can grow rooted deeply in God’s word and GROW (as a stronger Christian). I started this cool chart I placed on the wall of my bedroom. How it works is basically, I drew a seed on the poster that represented my growth in a certain area of my life, and every day I meditated, worked on, prayed about that area in my life I would make 1 small line. By doing that every day consistently, I’ll have a nice tree drawn up in about a year that represents how consistent and all that growth I’ve made as a Christian.

The progress that can be made by consistently growing as a Christian, and as a better PERSON in general is my humble interpretation of what “bearing fruit” is. And I believe that all that growth and passion about growing in Jesus and doing whatever it takes (like setting aside negative habits, and old belief systems); that’s the stuff that automatically inspires random people to say: “I want that in my life. I want to be a better human being”. Which leads them into meeting Jesus.

Hope you guys enjoyed reading that. I’m glad I found this community because I like these articles and I love sharing my insights; hope I can continue to keep doing so. now i’m off to bed; see ya

-james

This is a very interesting thread. :) I was at the Harvest Festival too, and heard the presentation that Joe is talking about. As someone who came to UBF after being saved and living as a Christian for several years, I have what in some ways could be perceived as a non-traditional perspective on questions like this. For example, I believe the Biblical concept of “fishing” is based on the concept of nets. A good example is Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish.” When Jesus met Andrew, he was “casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.” Several of Jesus’ disciples were fishermen. Even prophetically (e.g., Ezekiel 47), fishing will be done with a net.

So I think it’s useful to consider how a net works. Here’s a definition from Wikipedia: “Fishing nets are meshes usually formed by knotting a relatively thin thread. Modern nets are usually made of artificial polyamides like nylon, although nets of organic polyamides such as wool or silk thread were common until recently and are still used.” (There’s a lot of different kinds of nets mentioned, with pictures, in that article. :) When Jesus said to Peter and Andrew “I will make you fishers of men” (NASB), I do not think he was talking about a rod and reel. As in the verse quoted above from Matthew 13, fishing is an activity that is conducted with a net. So here’s a question or two: “How does a follower of Christ ‘fish’ with a net?” “What is the net anyway?” In John 15 Jesus says “I am the vine and you are the branches.” We can get a sense for the ‘net’ from this, and from Jesus’ words in Matthew 13, “the kingdom of heaven is like a net”. In short, the ‘net’ we fish with is us. :) It’s us as a community. The fibers, the mesh, are our relationships with each other. If our relationships are strong, and good, healthy and holy, we will naturally operate very effectively as a net. Naturally! What is it that attracts lost, hurting people to God? It’s us. Operationally, people are drawn to a warm, loving, forgiving and truthful community of believers. What makes us “warm, loving, forgiving and truthful?” Jesus Christ among us, dwelling/living in and through us, both individually and corporately.

One of our prayers for the past year or so has been “Lord, make us to love one another.” Why is that? Because this is how the church witnesses and grows. In John 13 Jesus said: “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” We all want to please God by seeing His kingdom grow. We love Jesus and want Him to have many citizens in His kingdom!! Think how pleased He will be, how satisfied, to bring many people to our eternal home! It’s going to be GREAT fellowship!!! :)

The secret to accomplishing this is to foster genuine relationships – with our wives, our husbands, OUR CHILDREN, our co-workers, our extended family members, our colleagues – with all who may cross our paths. Let me tell you about a friend of mine. He is a detective in the police department of a large city. He is also a Messianic Jew – a believer in Yeshua (Jesus), the Messiah. This person exhibits the character of fostering genuine truthful, loving relationships in wonderful ways. For example, when he arrests someone for committing a crime, he preaches God’s loving word of forgiveness to them. Yes, according to God’s word they must suffer the consequences of their sinful actions, but through him God extends His offer of relationship even to “the worst of sinners.”

This vignette is a good segue to another key point with respect to missions. We were visiting Yale UBF recently, and P. Abraham made a very telling point with respect to the great commission in Matthew 28:16-20. (He’s finishing up his seminary degree, and in the process studied Greek.) He said that the “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations” in verse 19 could be better interpreted as “Therefore _as you are going_ make disciples of all the nations.” This struck me as very insightful – inspired even, because what he said is that we are called to be disciple-makers in every aspect of life. It’s not just the time spent on a campus or with a student – disciple-making, according to P. Abraham, is something that is done continuously with _everyone who crosses our paths in our day-to-day life_. I really like this concept, and believe it gets to the heart of the matter of outreach, or “fishing” as we call it in UBF. I believe every Christian, no matter what their calling or gifts, is called to be a disciple-maker. Maybe it is just your own children, or maybe it is Billy Graham style with 10s of thousands, but in the end, I believe we are called to disciple “as we are going” – as we are living our day-to-day life, interacting with people who are unsaved, saved, young, old, doctors, lawyers, teachers, garbage men. I really hope that my point is clear – certainly, we may be called to disciple college students (and many of us have been so called), but as Christians our fundamental calling is to disciple “as we are going” – disciple (and be discipled) by all who cross our paths. I am experiencing this to a much greater degree because, like Dr. Joe, I too have so many demands on my time now. So I end up discipling as I am going! :) Like my Messianic Jewish friend, I believe that our true calling is to disciple “as we are going”, as we are living our lives – for Jesus’ Name’s sake.

But on a fundamental practical level, I’ve repeatedly said that “the problem is not that we can’t resolve these horrible issues, but that we can’t really address them.” You can address them, but you will be misunderstood, marginalized, and maligned, at least subtly. This is so because of our glaringly deep elitist blind spot of “hierarchy” and “autocracy” and “sense of honor.” John Stott’s book “Calling Christian Leaders” touches on this almost universal problem in the church, according to Stott. This is what I briefly touched on in an earlier blog: http://www.ubfriends.org/2010/11/why-do-we-have-divisions/

Also there is what I might call the tactical targeting of mostly young white students, the more handsome or pretty the better (at least thats how it used to be)! I actually remember fishing on a campus with a very respected shepherd and I was about to approach a black student to ask him to Bible study, and the shepherd I was with said, “No, no, thats a garbage sheep!” Other “garbage sheep” were the disabled or strange looking non white people. Perhaps if there was not a “garbage sheep” mentality, the percentage would increase exponentially! Imagine a church full of “garbage sheep”, now wouldn’t that be a New Testament Church! Also, on a side note, I was always shocked that as close as the Chicago Center is to the most culturally diverse area of Chicago, about two blocks away, I NEVER heard of anyone going fishing on Devon street, Ever. Perhaps the reasoning was because the people there are not college students, but that is completely faulty, I personally know for a fact that there are many students in that area, so it has always thrown me for a loop that as zealous as UBF is for raising disciples, could it be that one of the reasons the percentage is so low is who they are and are NOT targeting?

One of the best books I’ve read on the Holy Spirit is called “The Witness of the Spirit” by Bernard Ramm. Kind of an old one, but the best short one I’ve read. He employs a helpful analogy:

“There are two hands on the sword: for we take the sword, and yet, since it is the Sword of the Spirit, his hand is also on the hilt. We are not to use this sword by ourselves, on our own authority, and by our own sovereignty. We are to be completely sensitive to the pressure of the Spirit’s hand in ours. Unless the Spirit wields the sword, we shall use it to no avail.”

John Owen wrote a treatise on the Holy Spirt in the 17th century, which is equally good. He said,

“We are enabled to obey God firstly by an inward, spiritual, ruling principle of grace … by virtue of the life and death of Jesus Christ according to the terms of the new covenant… by which God writes his laws in our hearts and enables us to obey them by the Holy Spirit…”

Hope this sheds some light on the mysterious work of the third Person in the Trinity.

I just wanted to say I really appreciate this discussion. It’s so raw and honest.

I need let the Holy Spirit govern my life, my action and my thoughts.
There are times when I serve God with real sincerity and thankfulness and yet there are times when I feel like I’m caught in a loop. Sometimes it’s not love or grace that compels me to do works for God, but its a sense of duty or responsibility as a bible teacher and a member of the church.

The one thing that has been bothering me for awhile is the concept of the Holy Spirit. In UBF we talk a lot about the works of the Holy Spirit and the fruits of the Spirit. But not so much on who the Holy Spirit really is and what he is capable of. The Holy Spirit is capable of great things, and Jesus even said in Jn 14:12, “I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.”

I just wish to be more knowledgeable about the Holy Spirit and experience the work of the Holy Spirit first hand. Yes, I have definitely experienced the work of the Holy Spirit in my life several times, especially with serving 4 bible students and also my engagement story. But I feel like the Holy Spirit is capable of so much more. Do you feel the same way?

If you have any expertise or wisdom you can share with me about the Holy Spirit please let me know! I am very interested in learning!

May Jesus’ mercy and grace dominate this website with transparency and authenticity, and be the driving force, the power of God, behind our practical daily Christian lives as well.

Perhaps, based on my own experience, I’ve felt (subjectively) the ugliness of fishing and outward fruitfulness as a “badge of righteousness” and of being regarded as an “exemplary ubf person.”
Such a sentiment, no matter how subtle, just sucks the very grace out of what makes Christianity marvellous and majestic, leaving only deadly legalism, moralism, outward conformity, and Pharisaism.

But yes, I did overstate my case, for like Sharon, I do know many lovely people who fish only because they love Jesus, and not to get any outward praise or recognition or star on the chart.

Surely, “fishing” is not bad or wrong since Jesus used the words “fishers of men” (old NIV), “fish for people” (new NIV, Mark 1:17), “catch men” “fish for people” (old, new NIV; Luke 5:11), and “feed my sheep” (John 21:17). BUT the problems I have with the way we use and emphasize “fishing” is unhealthy, if not unbiblical. It also takes away our joy and delight of Jesus, the lover of our soul. Why?

“Fishing” has become a ubf way of “measuring” our spiritual condition.

Whether we “fish” or not becomes the measure of our worth as a Christian.

Fishing has become a means of praise, recognition, applause from our leaders. So that sometimes it seems that the only good ubf person is one who goes fishing. And one who doesn’t is “lazy,” etc.

Fishing is regarded as “better” than other aspects of life, such as socail justice, acts of mercy, being a Christ like influence at work, a good school teacher, a good nurse, etc.

Fishing enslaves us to a system of legalism; it enslaves us to a methodology; it enslaves us to our leaders who “evaluate” others based on fishing and other outward “legalistic” criteria, usually based on outward performance, such as testimony writing, attending meetings, conferences faithfully, being outwardly compliant to directives, etc.

However, the main problem I have is that Jesus, grace, the gospel, the cross, is no longer the practical central tenat of our Christian faith that moves our hearts to tears of gratitude. Rather, some outward legalistic distinctive such as fishing becomes emphasized. Jesus just becomes assumed, and fishing and other legalistic outward distinctives becomes the measure and criteria of our worth as a Christian.

I think just because UBF has been a campus ministry doesn’t mean it always will be and should be. I feel that it is expanding to so many different kinds of people and the people born into it shouldn’t have to call their church UBF. As Joe mentioned, it has definitely become a multigenerational environment.
Is it a church or is it an organization?
It was an odd experience as a kid telling my friends that I went to UBF. What’s UBF? UNIVERSITY Bible Fellowship. But you’re not in university. Yea I know. Uhhh.. OK.
Also heavily depending on past methods for TODAY doesn’t always work.

If you study the book of Acts, when they depended solely on the Holy Spirit, the church grew like CRAZY. It happens these days too. I’m not saying we need to grow in numbers, but at the same time UBF’s talks about numbers a LOT. Double ministry. 120 sheep. 12 Abraham’s of Faith. 50 1:1s. They set goals for conferences and each year to grow in a specific numerical way. So we want to increase but depend on our own methods. There’s a problem here. We talk about the Holy Spirit, but until you’ve had an encounter with the Holy Spirit, you’re still gonna talk about the Holy Spirit. I’m talking about the supernatural, real manifestation of the Spirit in a person.

Growing up I didn’t even know what the heck the HOly Spirit was or who He is. Rarely would we discuss Him. Who is He? Do we really allow Him to work?

I realize this is a whole different topic, but in the Red Tractor video this is what Francis Chan is talking about, right? Unlearn and relearn. Start over rather than accepting what we’ve done as the way to keep going.

I’m wondering if we should be settling for 0.3% when so much more could be done! Yes, we must sow the seeds, we must love and love without anything in return, but at the same time The Holy Spirit is capable of doing SO much more. As soldiers of Christ, as the bride of Christ, shouldn’t we anticipate more so that we can glorify our Father? I don’t know.

I fundamentally agree with you on many levels.

If you feel called to go fishing and it works for you, that’s wonderful. Thank God for that.

And I agree that the fruitfulness of a ministry is not measured primarily (or even secondarily) in terms of numbers of disciples, but in the quality of Christian character, the actual fruits of the Spirit. I can find no precedent in the New Testament for praying for specific numbers of disciples. Numeric growth happens organically when we focus on the essentials of being the Church, as in Acts 2:42-47.

But please allow me to pester you with a few questions, because I’m a bit puzzled by certain things that you wrote.

1. You said that “we focus on quality not quantity.” Yet it is a longstanding tradition in UBF to pray for numbers. Most of the major prayer topics (e.g., double the ministry by 2010) are numeric. Many newcomers to UBF are surprised by how much we do seem to be driven by numbers, and many critics say that we are numbers-driven. How do you feel about this? Should we stop praying for numbers and more explicitly pray for quality?

2. You said that UBF is still predominantly a ministry of campus evangelism. Our website and literature says that we are. But by my count, in most chapters, university students are a minority. The reality is that we have become a multigenerational faith community. Campus evangelism is great, but do you think that a heavy focus on campus ministry can really sustain the spiritual health and growth of the members of a multigenerational faith community over the long term?

3. You said “If you look at the bigger picture, we are still growing and this is the work of the Holy Spirit.” But from what I have seen, UBF membership in the United States isn’t growing very much. New members are coming in through outreach, birth, and influx of missionaries, but that increase is nearly offset by people leaving. Are you talking numeric growth, or some other kind of growth?

4. Related to 3, you said “this is the work of the Holy Spirit.” I’m curious how you know this. Are you assuming that the Holy Spirit is automatically working through us in all of our efforts, whatever we do? Or have you seen clear supernatural force that goes beyond human effort? One of the main reasons that I wrote the article was to challenge the automatic assumption that we are working with and relying on the Holy Spirit. Francis Chan is correct. I don’t think that this is a safe assumption for UBF or any other church or ministry to make. And, honestly, I now believe that a lot of my own ministry activity over the years was primarily my own effort and not Spirit-driven. Honestly, many of my efforts to disciple students involved a great deal more of appealing to my own knowledge, leadership style, human encouragements, etc. than genuine submission and reliance on the Spirit.

I don’t mean to give you a hard time here. But ministry leaders (and I consider you a potential leader) have to ask the probing, difficult questions about what we are doing and why.

For the last 49 years UBF ministry has sent 1500+ missionaries to 90+ countries all around the world following the divine mandate to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth. If you look at the bigger picture, we are still growing and this is the work of the Holy Spirit. We can talk about different methods and evolving to appeal to the new generation. But the important thing isn’t method, it is following the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Each person is given a gift from God as explained in Corinthians.

If we are talking about statistics my personal fishing stats. Approx. 300 met. I got about 30 names and out of the 30 I am currently serving 4 bible students. 4/300 is like 1%. But isn’t 1% still worth it? God does great things with one man. One man Abraham, Moses, Noah, Jonah, Elijah, John the Baptist, Apostle Paul etc… We should never say just because its only 0.3% that it is not worth it. YES IT IS! We are not like churches that focus on mass attendance.

I personally believe that statistics or how many members you have in a church does not define the “fruitfulness” of a church. UBF has always focused on raising disciples of Jesus and that is a key quality that we have. We focus on quality not quantity.

My conclusion is that fishing is still useful today. Most of the growing disciples are here today because of the diligent fishing ministry by missionaries and shepherds. But we should also be open to new methods to spreading the gospel. As Jose Ahn told me, “It is not the method that is important as long as the gospel is preached as long as the words of God are not altered.” I have had success with Fishing ministry so I will say that it does work.

Hannah, get back to me on this. I am very interested in this discussion.

Jon Foreman, the lead singer for Switchfoot, mentions some things that I find relevant to this topic.

Unfortunately, unity within the ecclesial community is the exception, not the rule. It’s to our shame many folks looking for hope find more grace at the local bar than the local church. When we speak with a fire and anger that burns differently than the fresh air of the cross, we do the Gospel a disservice. We know deep down something is wrong. So we revolt against those fiery speeches. We say the method needs to change. We call the old model irrelevant. And yes! The fresh winds of the Spirit are ready to blow upon us, let us pray for new tongues of the same eternal flame.

I loved all the examples you provided from the book of Acts. Without remembering what God did when Christianity first began, I think we’ll keep trying to do ministry by our own ideas and efforts.
From what I’ve seen and learned, the Church in Acts grew by the leading of the Holy Spirit.
In Acts 8, Philip meets an Ethiopian man by the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Like it says in Acts 1:8, maybe we’ve misinterpreted the word “WILL” as being a command rather than a promise. The greek term for this WILL or SHALL is esomai which means “shall come to pass” which appears to be more of a promise than a command.

Ok, this may be off-topic for a bit but I promise to connect it.
This past weekend I was asked to share a message on Acts 13:4-52. Before writing the message I was advised to remember and focus on the overall meaning of the message which was about Paul’s mission to the Gentile and how he was the light for the Gentiles. I kept this in mind, but kept reading and praying for a personal revelation from the Lord.
The more I read this passage, the more I realized that this passage’s focus isn’t about Paul’s mission but the actual message that Paul preached (forgiveness in v38,39). After I finished writing, I decided to see how other UBF ministries wrote their messages on this same passage. I don’t know if I read them wrong, but the three that I found were almost identical and there were even some sentences that were exactly the same. The three had the same message and same conclusions. As you said in your 3rd point, Paul’s focus was about the GOSPEL itself and living to please the Lord.
I shared this because I think its important that we read the Word without any motives of what we want to share. We need to read the Word with God’s heart, not with a UBF agenda. I realize the line may be blurry between UBF’s agenda and what we claim the Bible is telling us to do.

I am aware that fishing is a way of reaching out to students, but to heavily emphasize it as the best and/or only way to go about evangelizing can be problematic. However, at different meetings or through messages they will emphasize it.

As a second gen, this was a haunting task. I felt inadequate because I didn’t want to go fishing. I never felt an urge to go fishing. With this, it was assumed that I had no heart for students or people. I know that I placed this requirement upon myself but at the same time I can’t ignore the times that I was made to feel guilty when I didn’t go.

Mark 1:17. “Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will make you fishers of men.”
Command: Follow Jesus. Promise: He will make us fishers of men. It isn’t the other way around.
This brought so much peace to me because I felt confident that if I simply and followed Jesus with a commitment to being ONE with Him, then He promises to make me a fisher of men. Not by my methods, but by HIS methods.

Thank you for this. ” Inspiration (in-Spir[it]-ation) is what the Holy Spirit does.”
I am prying myself away from believing lies that I am lazy and disobedient. These ARE true about me, but I don’t want to declare them as my identity. Though I am a sinner, I can confidently say that I have the Holy Spirit within me who will guide my ways and life in the way that will bring glory to the Lord.

I agree with your conclusion. If we continue to hold onto what worked 50 years ago, after sometime, what we do may end up being extinct because it is no longer new, but old. I don’t know how else to say it. It’s like how everyone is finding ways to stay younger and remain youthful because the reality is that as you get older, the closer to death you are. With human beings, we can’t (not yet) reverse age and give youth to someone, but with a ministry and with the Church (the body of Christ) we can do this! (Does this make sense??)