My pastor for his part sincerely loves Jesus. He really loves and bears with others (including me). I think he has a lot of traditional ideas, but he puts Jesus first. The other day he mentioned that he really needed to stop feeling upset when missionaries don’t come to daily bread. The more I know him the more I feel that in my roommate’s case he was willing to over look and bear with his heretical ideas for a few reasons. First because he was marrying a very important woman in UBF in part, and second that his actions as a one to one bible teacher were seen as more important than his thoughts concerning if we should hate people who speak against UBF, or if we should not have dialog with non believers, or if we should obey our shepherd as God.

Those two conditions don’t coincide very often.

But I will say that some in UBF makes it very very hard for a younger person in UBF to comment on UBFriends and still be fully welcomed. The amount of negativity and discouragement not to read or participate on UBFriends is palpable and evident.

For a younger person, acceptance by their leaders is a very strong sentiment. So I fully understand that it is very difficult for many to participate.

As one who hopes, I hope that more and more people will overcome the strong pressure from UBF to not participate and participate, as Forests has, and still remain in UBF.

He is clearly an absolute minority, since most participants on UBFriends have basically either left UBF or checked out from UBF, even if PTSD reactions from UBF remain.

I have to agree that this is unfortunately often the case with some older long-standing UBFers. They insist how much God has blessed them through UBF, and use this to negate, ignore and refuse to hear anything negative. Honestly, I do not know when or if this will ever change. (Sorry for my GHE pessimism coming through here!)

But in my opinion I think that some of the younger non-missionaries who might occasionally comment here do not have such a “shut down the negative talk about UBF” mentality. I think some people truly do have positive experiences in UBF because their particular local chapter might not have much hierarchical domination or politics oozing about. Also, there are some genuinely humble and apolitical missionaries who love and serve their Bible students and who don’t try to play games behind the scenes.

Perhaps by being gentler and kinder in our comments (look at me almost shamelessly saying this!), we might encourage more commenters who won’t be afraid to share some positive UBF experiences and comments.

which is most dangerous/damaging to human experience, unforgiveness or uncorrected wrong?

so of course we must forgive, but even moreso we must constantly press to change wrong to right, otherwise the world will always stay bad or get worse rather than get better (which seems to be the predominant issue in history)

how seldom have brave voices like jesus, john the baptist, paul, martin luther, martin luther king,jr. actually sought real change by publically calling collective responsibilities to account? how often have innocent individuals through years/decades stumbled into unmarked travesties because those before haven’t had the guts to mark the spot with a warning or better yet correct the problem?

Ben, while I believe there is truth in your statement, I think it can be shown that more likely, the problem is that positive UBF experiences are expressed not to give balance to the conversation, but to shut down the criticism and to avoid addressing it directly, honestly and with real contrition. I can remember even the most ardent criticizers softening remarkably when their concerns were taken seriously. People who do not address the real concerns expressed here will not get a free pass. It’s just the way things are.

Yes, I must forgive, yet I know that I personally often have no genuine authentic ability to forgive anyone, sometimes not even someone close and dear to me. Yet, I must.

My thought is that though I am unable to fully and genuinely forgive (even though I truly want to forgive), I do not want to have any negative or condemning or bitter sentiments toward anyone, no matter what they have done either to me or to others. So I want to pray that God forgives them and even blesses them, so that they can know God’s gracious generosity toward them.

Ultimately, I know that though I cannot change my own heart to truly forgive others, I also know that when my heart is touched by the magnanimous mercy and gracious generosity of God toward me, my heart softens toward others. And then I, only through God’s mercy, am able to forgive others. Yet, it is really not I who forgives, but Christ living in and through me.

Here is how this works for me: I first face the facts that I cannot forgive a certain person. I confess my sin and admit I need a safe distance (or some period of “time out”.) Then I remember Jesus’ prayers, especially on the cross. When I pray Father forgive them/him/her, that opens the door to actually say “I forgive them/him/her”.

Surely there is no single process of forgiveness for everyone, and I really don’t like to promote process-based Christianity. But my point is mainly that facing the facts of my present condition and accepting my reality, and then praying “Father forgive them” is a remarkably good path for me to be able to forgive in a real, honest way.

But of course, this doesn’t mean that we should lie. One of the worst things that we can do is to fake a smile and pretend that we have forgiven someone when we actually haven’t. Many of us have been trained to do this. We need to process our emotions and be honest with ourselves. Otherwise we are just hypocrites.

Jesus did not say “I forgive them”. Jesus said, “Father, forgive them.” Could this be Jesus giving us a great example of what we humans can do when we have no strength or ability in us to forgive? What can we do when we cannot forgive those who have abused us, those who have harmed us, those who have mistreated us? What can we do when we cannot forgive the church, or maintain fellowship with the people who claim to know God because they have failed us? Jesus shows us the way. When we cannot say “I forgive them” we can pray “Father, forgive them”. – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/01/03/why-samuel-lee-was-deified-and-demonized/#comment-16214

I notice my comment above from 2011… “Jesus did not doubt”… I remember struggling with doubt so much. But now I’ve matured (just a little) and learned that doubt is not the arch enemy of faith–fear is the bigger enemy. It was not the doubt of Thomas that caused Jesus to react strongly, but the fear of Peter (“get behind me Satan!”).

And thanks for the Chesterton quote, forests. I love his perspective on the cross.

In the end we don’t know what Jesus was really thinking; I for one am trying not to speak for God anymore. Who knows the deep mind of God?

We do know what Jesus was recorded as saying. One thing he said was “Father forgive them.”

“The cross is another “raven” in the bible, something that is at the same time ugly and ghastly and beautiful and astounding. On the cross, Jesus was surrounded by his enemies. One could argue that all humanity was Jesus’ enemy that fateful day. What did Jesus do in that situation, being surrounded by enemies? One thing Jesus did was to pray, “Father, forgive them.” Much has been written about the cross and these famous words of Jesus. I will not delve into the deep meanings that others have expounded on with eloquence. I could not do the words justice. I can however notice something rather odd. Jesus did not say “I forgive them”. Jesus said, “Father, forgive them.” Could this be Jesus giving us a great example of what we humans can do when we have no strength or ability in us to forgive? What can we do when we cannot forgive those who have abused us, those who have harmed us, those who have mistreated us? What can we do when we cannot forgive the church, or maintain fellowship with the people who claim to know God because they have failed us? Jesus shows us the way. When we cannot say “I forgive them” we can pray “Father, forgive them”. pg 14, “Rest Unleashed: The Raven Narratives”

“Christianity is the only religion on earth that has felt that omnipotence made God incomplete. Christianity alone felt that God, to be wholly God, must have been a rebel as well as a king. Alone of all creeds, Christianity has added courage to the virtues of the Creator. For the only courage worth calling courage must necessarily mean that the soul passes a breaking point — and does not break. In this indeed I approach a matter more dark and awful than it is easy to discuss; and I apologize in advance if any of my phrases fall wrong or seem irreverent touching a matter which the greatest saints and thinkers have justly feared to approach. But in the terrific tale of the Passion there is a distinct emotional suggestion that the author of all things (in some unthinkable way) went not only through agony, but through doubt. It is written, “Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” No; but the Lord thy God may tempt Himself; and it seems as if this was what happened in Gethsemane.”

Here are some tidbits from psalm 22 btw:

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
…
8 “He trusts in the Lord; let him deliver him;
let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”
…
16For dogs encompass me;
a company of evildoers encircles me;
they have pierced my hands and feet[b]—
17 I can count all my bones—
they stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my garments among them,
and for my clothing they cast lots.
…
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him,
and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or abhorred
the affliction of the afflicted,
and he has not hidden his face from him,
but has heard, when he cried to him.

“A major reason is that the leaders primarily “preach the gospel of God’s grace” (Ac 20:24), rather than trying to “train their sheep.” They experience “rest” and “freedom” from the gospel, rather than the “pressure to bring sheep” or to “increase the numbers.”

This is not a small thing. This is EVERYTHING! That is what Christianity is all about! That is the gospel Jesus preached. And that is the essence of the issues we former Toledo/Detroit UBF leaders wanted to discuss, and did start discussing in many different ways in 2010 to 2012.

If you speak up rather bluntly like I did, you are quickly shunned and labeled as part of the R-group. Some Korean missionaries actually discussed whether or not I was now demon-possessed.

I can see now that I did not speak up in a “most gracious and humble manner”. But my conscience was stricken over my involvement in the 1990 events. Speaking up about those events was like lighting a powder keg.

I don’t blame the ubf Koreans for reacting like this. They likely will always consider me the “evil anit-christ”. I can take it (so I tell myself…) That’s ok with me if my speaking up can be used for good. I mainly want to prevent this from happening ever again.

It is good to find

However, just a word of caution on the idea of getting involved, getting faithful enough, to bear some influence. In my last 13 years of doing pretty much that in UBF, while I have made some wonderful friends and learned a lot, I think there are still other considerations. Though I have more years than any american in our ministry, still my concerns, when voiced, are rarely received well. So it’s not just a matter of getting credibility. I guess all people are like that. Ultimately, we just have to do what’s right before the Lord, and “Live before God” in truth and spirit and let God do his work, without expecting people to listen much. Maybe you already thought about this. But I became sober to this reality last year in a very painful way, and it made me throw away my expectation that people would understand me “if only”. that really set my heart free to look at my situation in light of God’s grace and take one step at a time.

It seems the person who is coming around the most to seeing what I see is my wife. She surprises me in seeing things more clearly at times than I do.

Anyhow, standing in that middle ground is a daunting task for new believers, and I think that is a huge barrier both to genuine spiritual growth and “increasing disciples.” Ultimately, we need to do what you said and celebrate Jesus and ask him to use us to reach out to others on his behalf. that’s how UBF got God’s blessing and that’s the only way to keep it, in my humble opinion.

Brian, I couldn’t stop laughing when I read this quote by Thoreau and I think it’ll resonate quite well with you as it did with me: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/31537-disobedience-is-the-true-foundation-of-liberty-the-obedient-must

Charles, you’re right that UBFriends can be “boring and predictable,” as some have commented to me. You can somewhat predict which comments are going to be lauded or blasted! :-)

Yes, I absolutely do not like the “pro/anti” labels either. That’s why I put it in quotes. It is primarily for simplicity. Otherwise I would have to write out “comments favorable and positive toward UBF” vs. “comments unfavorable and negative toward UBF.” If this is a poor or lame excuse I’m sorry. :D

Put another way, should someone who is a victim of bullying or domestic violence, for example, and speaks up be labeled as “anti” and asked to not judge but instead honor all of the good things that the abuser has done? Calling out the abuse is necessary and has nothing to do with the other good things a person may have done or intended. Is ubfriends the place to do this? It seems so right now. This is not to say that other discussions should not happen here. The regular commenters and “anti” people have shown themselves eager to do this as well.

About silent readers, I’m curious why you attribute silent readership to the fear of having positing UBF comments ripped apart. It reminds me of the recent commenting changes on YouTube. The anonymity allowed by the internet also allowed the comments on YouTube to become a hostile and rude place at times, to say the least. That same anonymity exists here. Users can register and post any whatever name they choose without revealing their identities. Consider how many reveal their full names or have posted with a picture of themselves. ubfriends largely doesn’t see the abuse of anonymity to troll and rip apart others’ comments. I think there’s more to the silent readership. If there are UBF leaders are labeling ubfriends as a bad place and meeting about how to prevent their members from reading here, then the bullying and stigma put on this site of being “horrible” and not for the “reasonable” might also play big parts in the silent readership. I’ve also heard from others simply that they find it boring. For me, it can be overly time consuming.

Take a look at my recent articles. I am attempting (in case you haven’t noticed) to move the discussions away from talking about ubf. I really really want to talk about other topics. I don’t liek the PTSD reactions I keep finding. I believe I’ve shown a real effort to move past that. And I love talking about the bible! Isn’t that what ubfers want to do?

And yet your articles continually are embedded with ubf experiences in a “I love ubf yet hate ubf practices” kind of way.

Maybe we all could work on articles that have nothing to do with ubf? I have shown that this is what I’d like to do. In fact I would love to talk about 2 Corinthians for example. And the law vs grace debate, for exmample.

And yet the comments on my articles inevitably draw us back to SL and ubf. I’ve had my say. Nothing will change me or Chris’ attitudes. But I think, at least for me, I would love to talk about Christianity instead.

Maybe we could both start submitting articles and comments that say nothing about our personal experiences?

But at this time, anyone who has any even remotely positive experience in UBF will avoid making comments “for fear that their positive UBF experiences” would simply be ripped apart and shredded to pieces, because their own personal experiences will be dissected and attempted to be shown to simply not be plausible or possible.

I understand (I think since I have not walked in their skin) that some have had really bad, horrible and inexcusable spiritual abuses perpetrated upon them. They were taken advantage of, and basically subdued by the arbitrary whims and fancies of their particular shepherd or chapter director. Yes there may be 200 of such people who have testified online, and likely even more who have not.

But there are also those who do have quite positive and pleasant UBF experiences even with the oddities and subtle or blatant spiritual abuses thrown in, because God is greater than any “spiritually abusive UBF leader.”

My point is that if we stop ripping apart positive UBF comments, UBFriends would not just have “silent” readers, but more active participants who contribute their comments, even or especially if they are favorable toward UBF. Presently, the implicit sentiment is basically that “positive UBF comments are not allowed,” since they have invariably been heavily and severely critiqued if not lambasted.

So if we continue to shred and rip apart any positive or favorable UBF experience that one has about UBF, then I guess we’ll just continue to have silent readers, who would never ever dare to comment. I guess that might be OK.

In my case, I DID climb into the “skin” of a ubfer. And I DID walk in all the ubf ways. So what you advise, Ben, may be well and good for a 3rd party person, but I am a first-hand person when it comes to ubf. I was “Mr. UBF”, and was “patient, kind, gracious, generous and restrained” for over 20 years. The time for such things is over for me.

“I don’t think that any mortal, limited and finite human being should make such or similar bold declarations, either about a particular person or about the entire ministry. We can let the “Cult Watchers” do that.”

No, I cannot let the cult watchers do that. I invested TOO MUCH to let some outsider label my organization. Do you think I enjoy admitting my church was a cult? Do you think I have any pleasure in admitting I was a cult leader? And it is just those very “bold declarations” needed to wake up people who are in denial.

Both pro/anti sentiments express in one way or another virtually exactly the same absolute assertion by citing their own evidences: “You blindly refuse to look at the obvious facts to see that UBF is (something good)/(something horrible).”

I thought this is an excellent quote from “To Kill a Mockingbird”:

“You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view…until you climb into his skin and walk in it.” Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird.

Since no one can really climb into and walk in another person’s skin, perhaps we should be more patient, kind, gracious, generous and restrained in our statements, declarations and assertions.

Even if the “other side” absolutely refuses to see “your side” (which to you is obviously the right side), I think that we should still respond gently, kindly, graciously, with much restraint, and without any blatant statements like “Samuel Lee is not a Christian.” Only God knows the truth about this matter, and I don’t think that any mortal, limited and finite human being should make such or similar bold declarations, either about a particular person or about the entire ministry. We can let the “Cult Watchers” do that.

“I’ve heard many UBFers express how horrible UBFriends is and how no reasonable UBFer should ever read it.”
– See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/01/03/why-samuel-lee-was-deified-and-demonized/#comment-14650

Ah but they do! ubf people DO read this website. We know they do. We have even verified reports, such as from a Russian conference where leaders met to discuss “what to do about ubfriends” and MJ’s story. And the stats show continual readership from the cities and countries where ubf chapters exist.

This is yet another contradiction and manipulation attempt by ubf leaders. They do read this site, then they claim to have “figured it all out” and don’t want anyone else reading this. The ubf chapter directors read all this stuff privately and then they discuss it in private emails (they often have multiple email accounts). The directors want to be the first to read it so they can concoct their responses beforehand.

“ubf is the largest missionary sending organization in the world”

No, ubf is simply small and Korean.

“We were world-class leaders”

No, ubf heritage teaches almost nothing about actual leadership. After 24 years of “world-class leadership training” at ubf, I lost a lot of my ability to listen and speak as an American.

“We were the marines of Christianity”

No, ubf is more of a cancer sore on the Body of Christ. The real “marines” are the Mother Teresa’s of the world, the single-mothers who sacrifice everything just to keep their family alive and the brave men and women who have been excommunicated from churches around the world.

You made some very good points I want to expand on:

“there are many commands, directives, imperatives, etc. in the NT.”

Yes! Now those are commands we should be talking about, as long as we understand the main point: love is the fulfillment of these commands.

“But still, we need to make sense of the fact that we have our own volition through which we can either draw nearer to God or stray farther from him; through we are in Christ….”

This wording no longer makes any sense to me. I suddenly stopped thinking about “drawing near” to God or “drifting away” from God. What has happened to me? It is as though God never leaves me; as if God is inside me. I no longer think of being “in Christ”. It is as if Christ is “in me” and I can’t get rid of Him no matter how hard I try. No matter what I do, I have a tangible sense of being “held back” and being driven to do and say certain things.

My prayer life has completely changed. I remember struggling to “come to God in prayer”. God was far away, in Heaven. Now it is as if He is right here, and I don’t need to long for Him, for He hears my thoughts before I articulate them, even sometimes He seems to intercept my thoughts for me…

I suppose most will just dismiss me as crazy or demon-possessed or hell bound. I feel, however, entirely opposite. I feel more clear-minded than ever, more close to God than ever and as if heaven is already here.

“So if former members what UBFers to look at the “negative” evidence, UBF people will likewise say to look at the “positive” evidence of the “extraordinary” work that God has done through UBF, despite much odds.”

Yes I too used to make extraordinary claims about myself and ubf. In my mind, we were the largest missionary sending organization in the world. We were world-class leaders. We were the marines of Christianity.

But then I looked at the evidence. The evidence did not match my claims. In fact, all the mountain of evidence pointed to validating most, if not all, of the former member claims.

ubf people have a skill at spinning tall tales and not blinking an eye. I found I can do this because my conscience was withered away, replaced by the ubf heritage conscience. Right or wrong was defined by ubf ideologies. So I was free to be very inventive.

Because of all this spinning, ubf conferences are typically cheerleading exercises, with many attempts to rally the troops, usually done by sticking people’s noses in the bible with little chance for honest, open, transparent or safe discussions.

Therefore, the evidence gets brushed under the rug and ubfers believe the spinning and tall-tales of great “work of God” (code word for selfish ambition).

A true picture of ubf comes into focus when looking at the offering decline from 2008 to 2012, the ISBC attendance decline, the massive loss of leadership around the world and the more elusive evidence of morale and discontent hidden just beneath the surface of most ubf members. There is more evidence too: all the 3rd party claims and observations of cult-like control and manipulation at ubf, found in newspapers, TV reports and books. And we should not dismiss the 200+ former member testimonies published on the internet.

There is little evidence of positive extraordinary accomplishments by ubf people. There is a lot of self-glorification and self-written history and even a self-made museum. But the evidence points the other way.

You probably know it already, but there are three flaws with this argument:

1) UBF is systematically fishing people at the universities. In our chapter we visited the dormitories 2 by 2 according to written plans, very much like Jehovah’s witnesses do. The wife of my chapter director clearly told me how it works: You need to approach and invite at least 100 students to fish 1 for one-to-one Bible study. And you know how it continues: After fishing, you try to establish a relationship (love bombing). After that, you try to manipulate and make dependent. Make them deliver a testimony at a conference. After that, you give obedience training. Tell people that becoming a shepherd and fishing is the only way to serve God and be sure of your salvation. There is nothing “extraordinary” or magical about this recipe. There are always insecure and vulnerable people among the students. It’s all human effort, and the recipe is the same as of other cults. I never experienced a single student who came to UBF on their own, because UBF was so attractive. It was always intense fishing, then love bombing, then pressuring people to stay.

2) The argumentation should be the other way around: Why does UBF, even if they put so much effort and human resources into these activities, have so little success? Why is UBF still so small, when such methods should actually cause exponential growth? So in reality it only reveals an extraordinary failure.

3) The “work that God has done” claim is therefore completely wrong. UBF’s activities, revolving around fishing, re-affirmation sessions and obedience training are all based on human effort. Therefore It’s wrong and presumptuous to always present this as the work of God. It also leads to the awful consequence that nobody is allowed to criticize what UBF is doing, since “it’s the work of God.”

One way I’ve thought about NT directives is that because this side of heaven we do not yet fully know God we need instruction so as to know how to both press into his blessings more deeply as well as avoid things which diminish a blessed life. And I believe that church leadership, despite the fact that they are capable of erring, is put into place so as to contextualize these guidelines to our present culture (unless people see some deep spiritual value in making women wear head coverings while in worship service). This is why the leadership needs a firm understanding of the progressive revelation of the Bible and ultimately the gospel itself.

But as you know, there are also countless UBF people who have made extraordinary claims about the extraordinary expansion of UBF throughout the world over the last half century (despite the fallout from the mass exoduses in 1976, 1989, 2000s and 2011).

So if former members what UBFers to look at the “negative” evidence, UBF people will likewise say to look at the “positive” evidence of the “extraordinary” work that God has done through UBF, despite much odds.

“Claims do not count as evidence. They require evidence to count.”

“That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.”

I think we’ll both be in hell anyway :) This was so much fun, I’m going to share an article tonight about my thoughts. I want to iron out my thinking and check my blind spots.

Hopefully that will result in catapulting me into getting at least one of the top 10 most commented articles…

Obedience to what? I would say “to whom” rather? Where does the NT say to obey the Law as found in the OT?

Find me 1 verse that teaches Gentiles to “obey the OT Law” and I will become a Jew.

Like you I don’t think I operate thinking that I am obeying God by loving my wife. I am also not thinking that I am obeying God by living as a Christian. Everything that I do, I wish to do out of love, joy, peace, thanksgiving and self-control only because of the mercy and grace of God.

Nonetheless, you could say I am obeying God because I want to love God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength (Dt 6:5; Mt 22:37), even if I fail miserably every single day, multiple times a day. But my failure to obey God as I should does not cause me to be a whipped dog, but to realize and deepen God’s grace to me even more.

I cannot stop saying, “I am simply living a charmed life,” none of which I deserve or have earned. It is truly all of grace.

Unless you are an orthodox Jew, I guarantee you are not even close to obeying the OT Law. So why do Christians tend to claim they obey the Law and that the Law is still our authority to which we must submit to?

That is a predicament for some, but not for me. Both Jesus and Paul already solved that predicament. The Law is not our supervisor. The Law has been nailed to the cross. The Law reached its goal in Christ. Therefore, trying to obey the OT Law now (cold sins) is also a cursed way of life, just as cursed as disobeying the OT Law (hot sins).

This is at the heard of why we forget the “older brother” in the parable and why so many are confused about “hot sins and cold sins”. Both are equally cursed.

The answer is in the gospel Jesus preached.

Regarding obedience, the Greek word is repeated 21 times in the NT: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G5219&t=KJV

I agree that obeying the OT Law (or even any NT command) cannot save anyone. Yet, the Bible does call forth obedience (which would involve your volition), not for any other reason other than love and gratitude to God that arises out of a willing heart.

Though you might insist otherwise, you, as a Christian, are “obeying the Bible” based on your own understanding, sentiment, experience and articulation, willingly, even if you do not wish to use the word “obedience.”

I wrote, “I split the bible into “OT” and “NT”. Thus I had many fragmented ideas about the gospel.”

And then, “the way to blessing is no longer conditional obedience to the Law, but unconditional love from the Spirit.”

I do see the entire bible as one story. And clearly there is one Lord and one gospel. My point however, is that the way we humans approach God has profoundly and forever been changed by the cross. We no longer approach “Mt.Sinai” full of fear and lightning. We now can approach “Mt.Zion” full of joy. Is this a dichotomy? Perhaps but if so it is a true dichotomy as we find in Hebrews, esp. Hebrews 12:1-29.

I no longer concern myself or others with obeying the OT law. And I am fully joyful and content about it because Christ is living in me. Love is the new law.

Why would we attempt to obey the Law that was fulfilled?

In my learning, I found that my own split-level world view stemmed from from my split-level view of the bible. I split the bible into “OT” and “NT”. Thus I had many fragmented ideas about the gospel.

One symptom of this problem was that I tried to keep the OT blessing/curse dichotomy, fervently attempting to do the mental gymnastics required to live with that tension.

I am all for living with the tension the gospel can create at times, but the gospel itself is something Jesus claimed a child could understand. The simple version of the gospel is that the way to blessing is no longer conditional obedience to the Law, but unconditional love from the Spirit.

Holding onto the Law results in a split-level worldview and fragmented relationships. The way to abundant life is to surrender to grace and swim in unconditional love. That is the essence of Jesus “teaching we must obey” and the “new command he gave us”.

Yes, tons of “conservative Christianity” (which in my opinion includes UBF) sees Christianity as either good/bad, right/wrong, heaven/hell, obedient/disobedient, absolute/relative, etc. I likely lived all in with such a “split-level” worldview for the first quarter of a century of my Christian life. Today, I find it unappealing, if not unpleasant and distasteful. In my opinion, such a worldview makes Christians seem narrow-minded, bigoted, sanctimonious, critical, judgmental and self-righteous, even if they may be genuinely godly loving Christian people at heart and center.

That’s why I want to encourage dialogue (without diatribes) and hopefully reconcile (without being reductionistic) what I regard as unhealthy and unhelpful when “both sides” either deify or demonize Samuel Lee, and neither the twain shall ever meet.

Isn’t this “split-level” dichotomy so closely and eerily similar to the two sides of the LGBTQ debate?

“’SL is God’s servant’ or ‘SL is evil’”

Who on this website talks about SL in the present tense? SL is only dead in the present tense. Speaking of him as if he is still alive tells me you have unresolved issues, which are painfully poked by Chris or other’s comments. I’ll try to be more sensitive to this in the future. But the reality is that SL died 12 years ago and can only be spoken of in the past tense, as with all dead people until the resurrection. It’s not our place to say who will rise to life and who will rise to damnation.

My first reaction is that you have unfairly described what is going on and are stoking the fire unnecessarily, but you are free to share your perspective.

I find the full Wright quote to be more helpful:

“The trouble is that much “conservative” Christianity in America has bought into the same split-level worldview and simply emphasizes the “God” side of it. The false “either-or” of “Bible or Darwin” is thus itself a dangerous symptom of a sub-Christian culture. I explain all this in that first chapter, of course. But yes, it is a false choice. We urgently need to take a couple of steps back in order to see the issues more clearly and go forward with confidence.”

The issue Wright doesn’t like is the “split-level worldview”. Who is heavily promoting a split-level world-view?

And his advice is helpful for all of us, to “steps back in order to see the issues more clearly and go forward with confidence.”

I believe this statement would also apply to the current hot button issue of same sex marriage. Genuine Christians hold opposing positions passionately, sometimes to the degree of “hating” those Christians who hold opposing views.

I might be accused of excessive extrapolation, but so be it. I’ve heard many UBFers express how horrible UBFriends is and how no reasonable UBFer should ever read it. On the “other side” there are many comments on this website that makes critiques of articles from UBF websites that will not be welcomed or embraced by traditional UBFers.

Then there is the issue of the founder. One side (“deifies” SL) says, “SL is a sinner, but God did many great works of God throughout the world through his life and faith.” Another side (“demonizes” SL) basically says, “SL did so many evil things and never repented, which is proof and evidence that he is not even a Christian.”

So let me paraphrase (out of context) NT Wright’s quote: “The false “either-or” of “’SL is God’s servant’ or ‘SL is evil’” is thus itself a dangerous symptom of a sub-Christian culture.”

Being there every year over the past decade, I can personally attest that the Philippines UBF paradigm “works” very very well. No “pulling teeth” has ever been necessary.

A major reason is that the leaders primarily “preach the gospel of God’s grace” (Ac 20:24), rather than trying to “train their sheep.” They experience “rest” and “freedom” from the gospel, rather than the “pressure to bring sheep” or to “increase the numbers.” There is no “guilt tripping” and “motivation by pride” that makes their UBFers feel burdened to prove themselves or to validate their ministry. They are simply basking and enjoying Jesus, while the fruit of the Spirit overflows among them (Gal 5:22-23), as the mysterious wind blows imperceptibly (Jn 3:8).

It’s quite a miracle how such a small seemingly insignificant shift of simply focusing on Christ and the gospel makes (1 Cor 2:2; Rom 1:16).

First, the “ubf system” of which I mean traditional works based salvation/sanctification via a prescribed “ubf way” justified by “ubf is a discipleship ministry”. It comes along with a lot of Korean stuff, like gossiping for one’s own good, which is based on the standard “ubf way”, assuming everyone will come around to the “ubf way” given enough bible study and praise, and holding hidden agendas to train “ancestors of faith”. Because UBF leaders assume the “ubf way” is solid no amount of argument against the assumption works. As my real analysis professor once said “You cannot hope to prove something you assume is false.”

So what do you have to do? You have to show them contradictions, you have to make them question their assumptions. Simply put you have to break their rules and come out in a better spot than they would expect. You need to conform just enough to make them think you are loyal, and then challenge them showing in the end that you are more “blessed” due to the disobedience. That is the only way, and once that is done the only reasonable conclusion is that some assumption was wrong. Let me give you an example. The Philippines does not follow the traditional “ubf system”. They do some “ubf things” (like marriage by faith) but it is contextualized to their culture. What happened? Well they have astonishing numbers. To a hardline UBFer this does not make sense. What happened? I thought the system worked? So when I mention to a korean UBF leader of 30 years that they do not follow traditional UBF practice yet they have so much success what is his responce? A few weeks ago at a summer conference I heard him say “We need to not only teach students, but also learn from students. In the Philippines most students are not fished, they are brought by friends who have relationships. We need to have relationships with students and see them equally.”

That this is a false dichotomy: There are many more different motivations than those two you present as the only two.

Brian already explained some of them. My motivation is the same as Brian, I don’t want people both in UBF and not yet in UBF to not repeat the same mistakes I made. As I already explained, I’m following the “golden rule” here. Do to others what you want others do to you. Personally I would have liked others to warn me much earlier and tell me about things like the 1974 letter much earlier. I only learned about it after 10 years in UBF. Or, using the words of Brian: Friends don’t let friend become ubf shepherds.

Actually we want to show much more generally how horrible spiritual abuse is and how wrong the whole shepherding/discipling movement is. The problem is not UBF, the people, but UBF the system. Because we love the people, be warn of the system, its teachings and practices. And yes, these teachings and practices are tightly coupled with the personality of its founder, that’s why we mention him so often. It’s not to “bash” him as you keep repeating. You simply can’t talk about UBF problems without talking about Samuel Lee, just like you can’t talk about the Unification Church without talking about Sun Myung Moon. We do not want to “demonize” Samuel Lee (another false dichotomy). We know that in a way he too was a victim of the system he himself created, and that he also was a victim of the flattery and blind loyalty and lack of honest criticism of the people around him like Sarah Barry and the upper echelon of UBF Koreans. If they loved him, they had criticized him frankly (Lev 19,17-18). In my understanding, the reformers loved Samuel Lee much more than all those who “deified” him.

“It is simply critiquing something that is perhaps impossible because it is purely subjective and subjunctive”

> No, ubf as an organization can be critiqued objectively (with reason) and indicatively (with facts). I care about the subjunctive wording found in both ubf and ex-ubf stories, but I care more about the indicatives observed about ubf for 50+ years. That is one smokescreen defense: ubf cannot be critiqued because everyone has their side of the story. Truth is indeed perspective, but when over 300 perspectives are processed, we can get a very clear picture of ubf.

“Are we truly more interested in somehow finding some way to reconcile and dialogue and make UBF friends, or do we take delight in just repeatedly expressing over and over just how horrible UBF is?

> Do I want to find a way to reconcile? Yes, but in a Christ-like manner.

> Do I want to find a way to dialogue? Yes, but ONLY publicly. I will not dialogue much in private now.

> Do I want to make UBF friends? No, I care nothing about MAKING friends with ubf people. I care deeply about BEING a friend TO ubf people. Friends don’t let friends throw their life away to the ubf heritage. Friends don’t let friend become ubf shepherds. Friends don’t let friends go through marriage-by-faith.

> Do I take delight in just repeatedly expressing over and over just how horrible UBF is? No, I do not like going in circles. I don’t like those discussions. I do however enjoy taking the discussions to new places. I delight in exposing the truth. I delight in finding facts and making new connections and discovering new ideas. I delight in helping a plethora of ex ubf members cope with their ubf time. I delight in meeting people online like MattC, DarrenG, MJ, CharlesW, forests, and PaulLee and the others. And I will never tire of explaining and expounding on why the ubf heritage/CME training has almost nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The difference between us is perhaps simply that I am in UBF. Many leaders have a major problem with me probably simply because I write and comment on UBFriends, and I more importantly I regard you as my full fledged friends whom I can fully trust, while some UBF leaders would regard you as untrustworthy hateful evil enemies.

My question still remains: “Are we truly more interested in somehow finding some way to reconcile and dialogue and make UBF friends, or do we take delight in just repeatedly expressing over and over just how horrible UBF is?” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/01/03/why-samuel-lee-was-deified-and-demonized/#comment-14596

For example, read the reviews of Ron Enroth’s book “Churches that Abuse”.

So yes, Enroth’s book does have a case study on UBF, the entire chapter 5, but the comments from the Amazon reviewers are NOT ubf or ex-ubf people. Read their words and see if what they say remind you of your ubf lifestyle. It is eye-opening to say the least.

Yes, and there are many good people in cults like Jehovah’s witnesses or among the Moonies or groups like ICC. They all want to do something that pleases God or bring peace to the world. That does not mean that the teachers and teachings of such cults are good, though.

> They may not know or care about all the bad UBF stuff.

Wait a monment. You should look at these people separately.

First, there are those who do not know. What can we do about them? I think the best thing we can do is educate. I.e. if necessary, repeat the same info over and over again. Recently a long-time UBF member posted here who said she did not even know about the 1974 letter. So obviously we haven’t talked enough about it yet and I totally don’t understand your allegation that we talk “too much” about them.

Second, there are those who know and do not care. This is a different group. To me it indicates they don’t have a conscience and they are not living before God. I don’t really consider such people among the “good” ones in UBF.

I agree that in reality it’s often not that simple to separate these groups because of the psychological dynamics going on – cognitive dissonance and all that, we talked about it at length already. It’s particularly difficult when a group uses mind control to instill the belief that the group is God’s special ministry and their calling to be a member is their only and absolute purpose in life and even eternity. You’re then in the dilemma of either facing reality and admit evil or giving up your whole fantasy world in which you and your group are something special directly approved by God. Still, the only way to cure and debunk such delusion is to speak frankly and openly and repeatedly about the misconception and the errors and the sins.

> will not appeal to the common man.

There is no “common man” in UBF and I don’t think it’s the task of a Christian to speak in a way that pleases the common man.

And therein lies the problem: 1) The leaders don’t care 2) The leaders consider us ex-leaders as only petty complainers.

You cannot resolve the ubf/ex-ubf division by changing us ex-leaders. We are a product of the ubf heritage training system. The only way anything will change is by changing the ubf leaders and their system. That happens to line up well my 2 open letter DEMANDS: 1) admit abuse 2) release the bonds.

If those 2 things don’t change, then nothing changes.

If leaders don’t show they care and admit abuse honestly then their authority will continue to be undermined by people like Forests.

If leaders don’t put an end to their heritage training system (i.e. CME) and release their “sheep”, then people like me will continue to exist.

If ubf people don’t want criticism from ex-leaders like Chris and I, then they should stop raising up people like us. Our problem is not that we rejected the ubf heritage training, but that we obeyed it too much.

I can annoy and even pick at my wife’s short-comings and she can laugh and feel loved (most of the time), even if others who notice our bickering have expressed that I do not love her, because I am intentionally provoking her and making her upset.

At the other extreme a husband can behave well and come across as being very loving, but the wife perceives that he does not love and treasure her deeply from his heart.

Incidentally, I have never advised any husband to do what I do!

Yes, Chris’ comments and the comments of many (including mine) I believe are for the most part accurate based on our own (and others) opinions, assessments, evaluation and perceptions. Many of us have already stated ad nauseam the countless demerits of UBF. I’m not saying that this is ever easy or that I know how to do so. But how we express UBF’s wrongdoings can either promote dialogue and open channels of communication, friendship and trust, or they may shut them down altogether, and never the twain shall ever meet.

Are we truly more interested in somehow finding some way to reconcile and dialogue and make UBF friends, or do we take delight in just repeatedly expressing over and over just how horrible UBF is?

As many have already said, “There are many good people in UBF.” They may not know or care about all the bad UBF stuff. You may think they should know, but no one should force them if they are truly not interested. Toning up the rhetoric is not going to make them interested, if they are not. When they read and hear such critical stuff they will personally feel that they are being attacked, even if we say that we are simply targeting a few authoritarian leaders, who are determined to push their own top-down ubf agenda to their dying breadth.

The vast majority of the UBF leaders being criticized really don’t give two hoots about anything written here. Right or wrong, they think they are “above” such petty complaints. Those who may read are the “common man.” In my opinion, repeatedly trashing UBF or bashing SL (even if true) will not appeal to the common man.

Have you seen the movie Coraline?

That movie describes the ubf experience most of us had. Only if someone extraordinary happens does someone have a different experience. And even then, those people cannot ignore the reality of what ubf life is all about.

If you really “do not disagree” with Chris’ perspective, then what is the rub for you? I don’t understand your perspective.

I find Chris’ comments accurate and would commend him fully for explaining very plainly and without anger.

Sorry, I see no similarity here at all. We’re talking about an organization that claims to be a church, but has a founder and a set of teachings and practices resembling a cult. “Anti-UBF” are just those who criticize the organization because of that. Also, the whole thing is not irresolvable. It is easily solvable by top leaders admitting the clearly documented abuse of the past (like the forced abortions), repenting, and apologizing, or by members informing themselves and either demanding that this happens or leaving. Should not be difficult for people who claim to be Christians. You’re really comparing things that have nothing in common. You could just as well claim that “Jehovah’s witnesses” and “Anti Jehovah’s witnesses” are like Isrealis and Palestinians, it would make just as little sense to me.

You say UBF is bad and the good negates the bad. But I know many good people in UBF who say that UBF is good despite the bad. Who is the final arbiter of what is good and bad?

You judge UBF as mainly bad by quoting various Scriptures. UBFers judge UBF as having much good and having done much good also by quoting various Scriptures.

You insist you are right in your reasons and arguments, and UBF is wrong (again by quoting verses), while UBF keeps insisting you are wrong and that UBF is still helping people come to Christ.

Are both sides (UBF vs. anti-UBF) that much dissimilar to the horrible seemingly irresolvable Israeli-Palestinian conflict, where both sides seem to not be willing to budge, but keep hurling bombs and missiles at the other side? Of course, we Christians are not that violent! We just do so in a Christianized “polite” version using words and quoting Bible verses that basically do not promote understanding, concession, friendship, humility, gentleness, patience, kindness, trust, grace and reconciliation.

Plus, and I repeated this often enough, in the context of a church (which UBF is claiming to be) of when somebody claims to be a teacher and authority over life of others (which UBF does) there is no outweighing of bad vs. good. Jesus said we should be perfect. That is the measure stick. There are many passages that say that even a little leaven leavens the whole lump. We know well enough there is more than a little leaven in UBF, and it has completely permeated the dough for decades. Therefore it is only fair to say that the whole dough is spoiled, unless this problem hasn’t been thoroughly been tackled. And so long as UBF is in complete denial and praises itself well enough through its websites and even museum, there is absolutely no need for me or any other critic to say anything good about it.

You can take an example from the Bible: Isn’t it clear that there were a lot of good things the Pharisees taught and practiced and isn’t their devotedness to God admirable? Yet, the Bible doesn’t seem to say a good word about them and is only speaking bad about them as if they were the worst sinners of those days. Isn’t that unfair and unbalanced in the same way as you say our criticism of UBF is unfair? But remember what you wrote about the seriousness of the sin of the “elder brother”. That’s why the Bible is so harsh with the Pharisees and does not mention their “good things”.

Also, don’t confuse criticism of the UBF system and its leaders with criticism of UBF people in general. There are many nice people in UBF, since UBF systematically fishes those who are obedient, diligent, religious, sacrificial. But that does not make the UBF system and its leaders any better, only worse, since they are exploiting the naivety and goodnaturedness of such people.

I don’t understand your last sentence. I think it’s completely fair and correct to say that Samuel Lee continued the same kind of abuse as he started in UBF. It is also fair to say that he made himself a “big boss”. What does “General director, Ph.d. Litt. D.” that he himself printed on his letters different from “the big boss”?

Yes, the bad has been well reported and documented frequently since the 1970s on multiple different websites, including this one. But it should be noted and acknowledged that there are also many good things in UBF which continues to this day, which perhaps is not expressed often on UBFriends or on other websites that perpetually only highlight the abuses of certain UBF leaders.

These are some of the good things that came out of UBF: Love of Scripture, frequent/regular reading of the Bible, Daily Bread/devotion, weekly fellowship, sharing and community, mission and world vision, evangelism and discipleship, self-support, spirit of responsibility and hard work, tithing, etc. I personally attribute my love of these things to the positive influence of UBF upon my life to this very day. So it is likely not fair to simply say this: “…only to reappear as big boss in Chicago, continuing the same kind of abuse.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/01/03/why-samuel-lee-was-deified-and-demonized/#comment-14590

Yes, it’s part of the explanation. But remember 1974 again. The open letter shows that it was not virtually nor practically impossible for the Korean senior shepherds to call out the director. The problem started when Samuel Lee refused to answer them and admit his wrongdoings, he simply denied everything and went abroad for a while, until the dust settled, with the backing of Sarah Barry, only to reappear as big boss in Chicago, continuing the same kind of abuse. So it’s much less about Korean culture than it’s about UBF culture, and that culture was coined by Samuel Lee (bad cop) and Sarah Barry (good cop), not by the UBF members at the bottom. The whole misery of UBF cannot be understood or explained without speaking about the personality of its founder. Just like you can’t understand ICC without speaking about Kip McKean. It doesn’t have much to do with American culture (in this case), but mainly with he founder figure and the special cult(ure) he established. That UBF is an even more complicated case because of Confucianism is obvious. But it’s not so fundamentally different from a group like ICC.

What I discovered was that Toledo ubf was VERY united– almost all the members were very closely united in what they wanted Toledo ubf to be. They had only minor disagreements about various issues. The HUGE disunity was that the director and a couple top leaders had massively different ideas about authority and the heritage.

So the seeds of discord were sown by the top 3 or 4 leaders who refused to listen to the larger group of members. In my observation, those 4 guardians shipwrecked the Toledo ubf chapter.

My role was to connect people and get them talking to each other. That’s all they needed to do to realize we were all fighting against the same thing– heritage guarders who insisted on being “God’s anointed servants” for life.

In the past there were also “defenders”, like I used to be, who actually tried to make sense of the heritage and defend it. There are no more defenders as far as I can tell. And so now there are “instigators” (like me) who expose things.

Perhaps new types of people are now at ubf?

Without justifying or excusing anyone, part of the reason and explanation as to why some older UBFers are unable to or plainly refuse to see, realize or acknowledge the bad is likely cultural.

In such a life long culturally conditioned authoritarian hierarchical psyche where unquestioning loyalty to a leader or church is a most valued attribute and sentiment, it would seem to be virtually and practically impossible to call out someone “above you” as bad or wrong.

It does not make it right. It certainly comes of as being either dishonest or lacking objectivity or plainly stubborn. But that is the unfortunate current reality not of all UBFers but of some.

Forests, we did look into comment editors in the past. But the plugins we tried out messed up our theme and made the articles difficult to read (some sort of CSS/stylesheet issue). I’ll check again though.

Is there no edit function?

Therefore, you do not have to be what someone else says you should be.

It is absolutely not their right to do so as a Christian, or as your pastor, shepherd, missionary, or chapter director.

My thought and suggestion is to keep pressing the issue (with gentleness, prayer, respect and humility) as much as you feel compelled and convicted by God to do so.

I’ve tried to explain to some leaders that some UBF leaders simply do not welcome nor allow their people to question or disagree with them. I’ve repeatedly stated that this HAS TO CHANGE.

My first thought is that I don’t really have to answer the question or deal with it! since he has already passed on in 2002.

Next, I felt that God took SL when He did to allow things to happen as they have been happening since he died–which are good for some and bad for others.

It has been great for those who are willing to and able to articulate grievances and address glaring problems and issues, especially of authoritarianism and spiritual abuse. But for those who want to ignore these messy problems and issues, or keep the status quo, or keep the lid tightly on, it has likely not been the most pleasant of times for them.

Nonetheless, my thought today is that if SL were still alive, I would say and do what I have been saying and doing. If he was the person he was when he was alive, I might have been treated the way some of his objectors were treated. Of course, this is pure speculation and really a moot point, since God took him when God took him.

I wonder, if Dr. Lee were in your life now, what would you say to him regarding problematic behaviors?

The reason I ask is, there are a number of people in UBF who have such a person (such a blessing in many ways, yet authoritarian and non-listening, at worst) to whom we are indebted but who also crosses a number of boundaries.

And if you were to say, approach them lovingly and prayerfully and be honest, what if said blessing person is extremely defensive and offended?

Not to dig up old skeletons, but learning how to approach this kind of situation is crucial to personal spiritual formation and possibly the future survival of UBF.

Any thoughts?

I’ve been chanting this mantra for the last few years: “Reconciliation is at the very heart of God and the very core of the gospel. If any church does not regard reconciliation work (which is painful and messy) as of high priority and importance, she would become less and less like Christ.”

I agree with these sentiments completely and they are the reasons why I read ubfriends and comment. There is a problem with UBF (implied) doctrine and it cannot be ignored. (I don’t even know what UBF doctrine is, but I guess it’s the core values.) I don’t know how change will happen, but it must. Even in Ukraine UBF, I see children neglected. I was with the CBF kids the other day and saw how their parents spend time in Bible Studies and Prayer meetings, but don’t know how to raise their kids. Sometimes their babies are left alone, while the parents are at meetings. I thought this was old school UBF, but it still goes on. (I’m not saying all the parents are like that. There are awesome parents too. I respect them and love them as my brothers and sisters in Christ. But my point is that UBF needs to offer more than just Bible Studies and campus ministry. As a church, UBF needs to support the congregation and provide lessons on practical life, marriage counseling, children raising, etc. Sometimes, UBF acts as though family issues are mundane and not as worthy of time and energy as campus ministry is.)

Reconciliation is also a painful topic. People who have left the ministry are still “demonized” or worse completely ignored and cut out of life. It’s unbelievable how shallow UBF relationships are. It’s heartbreaking that people who you thought were your friends, suddenly ignore you or are afraid to be seen with you because the “Pastor” says you are heretical. They say apathy is worse than hate.

Yes, I should not have stated that “I don’t remember.” It is not helpful and it only avoids taking full responsibility and accountability for my hurtful words and actions.