Comments on: Word, Spirit, Gospel and Mission (Part 7) http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/03/01/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-7/ for friends of University Bible Fellowship Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:34:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.3.1 By: John Y http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/03/01/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-7/#comment-1377 Thu, 03 Mar 2011 05:43:24 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2193#comment-1377 But then again, who am I to deny the man a second chance?
 
As Chesterton once said, “There are many, many angles at which one can fall but only one angle at which one can stand straight.”

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By: John Y http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/03/01/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-7/#comment-1376 Thu, 03 Mar 2011 05:34:20 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2193#comment-1376 Don’t mean to be uncharitable here, but Harold C@mping from Family Radio has been wrong before:
http://www.equip.org/articles/harold-camping-1994-

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By: Joshua Yoon http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/03/01/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-7/#comment-1375 Thu, 03 Mar 2011 05:14:17 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2193#comment-1375 I did not know what Joe and you talked about. So I researched Family Radio and Harold. I am curious what will happen on May 22. I am not sure about on which position I stand, pre or post or amillennialism. One thing I do believe is that Jesus will come only in response to the outcry and longing of His Bride, “Come, Lord Jesus!” across the globe. If the Church, His Bride has no interest in Jesus the person and no longing and eagerness to spend eternity with the Bridegroom but only pursues numeric increase, I wonder if Jesus will be happy to be back for union (wedding) with the Bride whose heart is on kingdom business, not on Himself. (Rev 19:7-9)

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By: Joe http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/03/01/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-7/#comment-1374 Wed, 02 Mar 2011 21:16:09 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2193#comment-1374 Realistically, I do not see how anyone can deny that things have been getting better and worse at the same time throughout Christian history and both are happening today. American churches are in decline, and as they continue to decline, new doors for the gospel open among people who are disillusioned with churches. When I look at the world today and see the vast numbers of “unreached” people, I don’t think it’s merely because of Christian’s laziness, lack of effort, etc. that the world hasn’t been converted. I do not think that the world hasn’t changed because we have not sent out enough missionaries. Western churches sent out huge numbers of missionaries in previous generations, but the missions didn’t take off as they planned, due in no small part to the mission-station strategy that I blogged about earlier. I think churches began to lose their missionary zeal when they saw ugliness in their own efforts and the cry “Missionary go home!” began to weigh on their consciences. Some turned to a purely social gospel, but that didn’t help either. God is doing interesting things among us, unexpected things, and I have hope that there are great things to come. But I don’t harbor any illusions that the church will triumphalistically conquer the nations and thereby usher in God’s kingdom. The apostles at first believed a similar thing about Israel, and they were wrong.

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By: David L http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/03/01/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-7/#comment-1373 Wed, 02 Mar 2011 19:38:41 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2193#comment-1373 Oh yes my friend, I will be listening on that day as well!…I guess my question is, do you think that the world is getting and will get  better or worse or the same  morally?

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By: Joe http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/03/01/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-7/#comment-1372 Wed, 02 Mar 2011 18:46:33 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2193#comment-1372 David, in answer to your specific question about the end times: I consider myself a pan-millennialist; I’m just waiting to see how it all pans out.

More seriously: I believe that Jesus can  return at any time. I am looking for his coming and longing for it. The early Christians believed that Jesus’ return may be imminent, and so should we. When he comes, I think Christians of many eschatological schools will be taken by surprise. And I plan to listen to Family Radio on May 22 to find out what Harold has to say.

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By: Joe http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/03/01/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-7/#comment-1371 Wed, 02 Mar 2011 11:49:26 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2193#comment-1371 Hi Joshua and David,

Thank you for these insightful comments. You both understood the point of my article quite well. The work of the Church is paradoxical, isn’t it? We long for Christ’s kingship and we seek to display his rule over every aspect of life, but we know that his rule will not be revealed until his return. We speak and live as though Christ is the victor over death, and yet we die. Missionaries carry the gospel from one nation to another, and  as the church grows on the new mission field, the church on the home front weakens and wanes. To the naked eye, church history, world history and missions do not look like a one-directional march toward victory; it’s more like a step forward, then a step back. Many of our best efforts seem to end in humiliating defeat. But in defeat and failure we may be experiencing the greatest victory, as Jesus did when he went to the cross.

These paradoxes were found in the earthly ministry of Jesus. He healed lepers but did not wipe out leprosy. He fed the 5,000 but did not wipe out hunger. He raised Lazarus and yet Lazarus eventually died. He preached the gospel to his nation, but his nation rejected and killed him. The good  works of Jesus are called miraculous “signs.” They are not the reality; they are  signs pointing to the reality. The Holy Spirit continues this work in the church. The Spirit is the arrabon, the downpayment and foretaste of the glorious world to come.

Signs are easily misinterpreted, so the performing of signs must be accompanied by understandable preaching of Christ. Christ is the gospel, and the gospel is Christ. But Christ can be revealed very powerfully by disciples who plainly and clearly love him and love others, even if they are not aggressively proselytizing (Mother Theresa did not). God’s mission is the activity of the whole Church, not of any single part. If Christians are proselytizing in ways that do not involve true worship, in ways that do not show love, in ways that hurt rather than heal, in ways that divide rather then reconcile, in ways that elevate principles over persons, then something has gone very wrong. Too much of that, in my opinion, has resulted from Christians seeing their mission  in terms of  church growth and individual rescue rather then placing it in the great narrative of biblical history. We are supposed to be displaying the image of Christ, not acting like heartless soldiers, pushy salesmen or drive-by evangelists. If we claim to be serving the gospel but are not worshiping God and are disengaged from our spouses, families, and communities, then what are we doing? The gospel is about Christ who came to restore relationships so that persons can become true persons again.

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By: David L http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/03/01/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-7/#comment-1370 Wed, 02 Mar 2011 05:47:55 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2193#comment-1370 Hi Joshua, I think that probably Zechariah 13 as a whole, but especially vs.8-9 describe who the eschatologically saved Israel will be…that is the view of Macarthur, and I asked D.A. Carson in class about what he thought about those verses and he said “maybe!”

And Joe, I am curious about one of your statements, you said, “Act 4 is restoration, when God remakes humanity and the earth. Restoration begins with the resurrection of Christ, his ascension to heaven, and the coming of the Holy Spirit. In this post-Pentecostal era, the Holy Spirit is working to restore our relationships with God, with one another and with the world. Act 4 will continue until Jesus returns to completely destroy sin and death, to raise our bodies and establish the new heaven and the new earth.” By this statement I am wondering if you take a “Postmillennial” approach to the end times as opposed to Amil or Premil? Because Postmils believe that the  church will continue to make the world better and better and defeat the forces of Satan more and more right up until the return of Christ, and ofcourse Amils and Premils almost say the opposite ie. that the world will continue to get worse until the Glorious Appearing. Or perhaps I am reading too much into your point that we should help our communities…

One more thing, we  cannot deny that personal, individual  salvation from Hell and Judgement  plays a huge role in the gospels and the rest of the  New Testament (and not just in 19th century revival meetings). I know that Tom  Wright and others with his theological bent make arguments to the contrary, but there are plenty of verses that are explicit on this point like when Jesus says to the pharisees in Matt 23, “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?” or, “He who does not believe stands condemned already” or, “But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Or, “…”Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”  How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

YES we do have to have concern for our communities and promote social justice  and be peacemakers and facilitate restoration etc. However I think that those things count for absolutely nothing without the Gospel also being preached. Otherwise, like Kevin DeYoung said at the Desiring God Conference, “Angelina Jolie does all of those things, without preaching the Gospel of salvation from sin and hell,  and restoration with God, how are we different from her?”

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By: Joshua Yoon http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/03/01/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-7/#comment-1369 Wed, 02 Mar 2011 04:44:27 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2193#comment-1369 correction. Paul started chap 9-11, not 10-11.

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By: Joshua Yoon http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/03/01/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-7/#comment-1368 Wed, 02 Mar 2011 04:42:30 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2193#comment-1368 Joe, you put a pretty tough question. It made me think hard to get the point of WSGM Part 7. You said that the Church can contribute to the restoration part of a world history and also all the activities of the Church will not transform the whole earth and it will be done when Jesus returns. If this is the case, shouldn’t we seek the return of Christ day and night? What is the meanging of the Church’s engagement in the slow process of restoration even with the work of the Holy Spirit? Romans says that Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in (Rom 11:25) and will receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to the Gentiles. (11:31) How many more Gentiles are to be counted before this hardening is gone? What number of God’s goal for the Jews? What if the Gentiles who have been grafted in harden their hearts? I guess that’s the time for the Jews to receive mecy again. It seems that this can run in cycle forever. At what point is God going to stop this process and let Jesus return? I am sure God has a master plan of who will be elected and when the complete restoration will come. I believe all I have to do is to stay humble and obedient to Him and with full trust in God’s sovereign choice and zeal, be engaged in the healing work of the Holy Spirit as a member of the Church. Paul started chap 10-11 with his sorrow and anguish over Israel’s rejection of the gospel but ended with awe and praise of the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God. “How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord?…(Rom 11:36) I would like to listen to how others will answer Joe’s good and tough question.

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