Surely the axe is at the root of the tree that does not bear fruit, but that is the point! if Works do not follow from faith, then the faith was not real in the first place! Works are simply the EVIDENCE of faith and the outworking of faith in Christ who gives Justification. And “good fruit” and “good works” are only made possible by the Holy Spirit who indwells every believer.  Works are NOT the CAUSE of Justification or Salvation or Preservation, that  Cause  is Jesus and Him Alone. Sola Fide in  Solus Christus. No one can snatch his sheep out of his hand. Once we are his we are his forever, he has not lost even one that the Father has given him. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him, and like I said before, if a believer has crossed over from death to life, and will never die, and has eternal life right now HE CANNOT LOSE IT OR IT WOULD NOT BE ETERNAL. John 5:24, “”I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”

This is another nice cute little story about a little girl blogged by  Tullian Tchividjian that shows why God’s grace in giving us an “A”  is the only way we sinful human beings, who never deserve an A,  can ever be truly changed.

I see a major problem in the church when the Law is used to control people, manipulate people, rule over people, assess people, evaluate people, judge people, make distinctions between people (obedient, disobedient; leader, non-leader; senior, junior; older, younger; etc), etc. Such a use of the Law only makes some people proud (because they are “good,” obedient, superior, senior, faithful, fruitful,  etc), and some others it primarily  burdens and condemns people (which is what the Pharisees did). Such a legalistic, moralistic use of the Law is not what the Bible intended. So it does not  uplift people and point them to Christ, who alone fulfilled the Law perfectly, and whose righteousness is then imputed to us Christians through repentance and faith (2 Cor 5:21).

This is not to say that there are no leaders and no boundaries in the church. But a Christian leader’s role should follow the Bible and not the world (Mark 10:42-45), as you pointed out, and which I addressed previously.

I am indeed a sinner who by the Grace of God, has been “grafted into the vine and now shares in the nourishing sap from the olive root” (Romans 11:7). Nevertheless, I try not to “consider myself superior to those other branches” (Romans 11:17) because if I do, “God will not spare me” (Romans 11:22). So I pray that God might help me to carry my cross and help me to respond to his kindness so that I may not be “cut off” (Romans 11:22).  

If you have a concern for my salvation, please email me and we can discuss anything I present here.

#1 You cant have a church do whatever they want and especially believe whatever they want. We see the consequences of this kind of relativistic attitude in secular culture. That is why Chesterton often said that within the bounds of the Church, there are walls that that give children the security to know you are within truth. But if you take away those bounds, then people feel a great sense of insecurity and they dont even know what is truth anymore.

#2 A church is not a  business  where many like to look down on their “subordinates.” A Church is driven by the grace of God and the grace that its children show towards one another.  If a church has leaders, then these leaders should not look down on others.

I don’t see these two views in conflict with one another. When Jesus bent down to wash his diciples feet he said to them, “You call me Lord and teacher” and then concludes this statement by saying, “and rightly so!” He did not say, “you guys flatter me to much, I am just like you.” Instead, he humbled himself and gave them what they wanted, a master and savior to served. He answered as the Son of Man and yet he showed within his humility that he was the Son of God.  

Lets take another example. Matthew 20, Mark 20 and Luke 22 all recount an incident in which the disciples wanted to know who was the greatest. How does Jesus respond? Well first he says, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors.   But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves”

If we look at this passage, we see a lot of support for what you have been saying on this and other threads. The inappropriateness of “those who lord it over them.” But we may also be tempted to think that Jesus is saying, there should be no leaders among the disciples or Christians in the future. However, I think it is important to point out that Jesus does in fact mention who is the greatest among them by saying that the greatest among them is he who “serves and is like a child.” So Jesus does in fact both say, humble yourselves and yet names the  characteristic  of he who would seek to be the greatest among them. I think this passage suggest that we can reconcile the desire to be great and the desire to seek humility in this: To reject the greatness that the world gives and seek after the greatness that God gives.  

Interestingly, if you go just a few verses down, we see that after Jesus says goes on to name the person who was to lead the apostles when he says in verse 31-32: “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat.  But I have prayed for YOU [singular greek], Simon, that your [singular greek] faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

But again Dr. Ben, your point is well taken in looking at acts when Saint Paul rebuked Peter (even though he was the leader) for not eating with the gentiles. So even though Saint Paul received Peters blessing to be a missionary to the gentiles, he still rebuked him and Peter had no choice but to stand rebuked.  

So I think Jesus ministry and the apostles ministry shows us several excellent examples of how both you and Joe are quite right in asserting that we both need rules, authority and boundaries as well as a spirit of humility.

Gerardo, by your own logic, how can you personally have hope of heaven? What if you commit 10 “Mortal sins” one second before death?

I am not saying that I believe the Gospel allows for licentiousness, it certainly does not, and I think you would be hard pressed to find a  Calvinist that would tell you it does. However, if true believers have “crossed over from death to life” and are “sealed with the Holy Spirit” and  have been  “elected unto salvation” and presently HAVE “Eternal Life” then how can they lose it? If I have eternal life but I can lose it, then it is not eternal, at best it is contingent life (contingent upon my obedience and righteousness), but not eternal life. So the question begs to be asked, at what point do we gain Eternal Life? Now or at death? Why did Jesus say in John 11 “Whoever lives and believes in me will never die.”?

Although I am still confused by that reasoning, I have to admit that very few of the devout protestants I know acknowledge  that they are saved and yet, continue to try and live a life full of faith and charity. Not because their works are meritorious but because they want to live a Christ like life. So even though a once saved always saved position creates the ripe enviroment for lawlessness, I have to admit that most people who I know that follow this dont do whatever they please. They are wonderful, self sacrificing individuals. If someone who didnt know them, witnessed their behavior, they might even be tempted to think that they are trying to earn cookie points with God because of their self sacrificial life.

So I totally agree that grace should not be confused with lawlessness. I have been fortunate enough to be surrounded by people who live within the laws despite being free’d from them in Christ.    

I also love your point about drinking deeply from the well of Christ and not seeking that balanced life. Whether we are justified by faith alone or faith and works is one question. However, I think that no one would deny that despite the role that works *might* play in salvation, we are called to have the faith to move mountains AND the works that would lead us to lay down our life for our friends. Christ taught us to believe deeply and Love deeply. I think we often take this middle ground approach because we assume that all extremes are bad. And indeed, many of them are bad and even the ones that are inherently good, can become self destructive if they are viewed through the lens of a world view that cannot support them. C.S. Lewis often wrote how many moderns love the idea of deep, deep humility but outside of a devout religious framework, they quickly give up that pursuit because their world view cannot sustain it. I do not think we can ever have too much of a inherently good thing IF it is carried out through the right vessel (e.g., Holy Spirit) and the right world view (e.g., the Gospel).  

The one thing I have often been fascinated by is how people who do not hold the gospel world view view a person who carries this extreme out. For instance, how does an humanist atheist view a Saint like Mother Theresa?