This stands out to me “why do we do what we do?”

I only met SLee a few times, and only once in person back in 1992. The one thing I remember he told me was this, “Always ask why do we do what we do?”

So if you can accept it, I have simply been “obeying Slee” :)

Yes, thank you BK for uncovering this gem; I hadn’t read it. This thought-provoking article reminded me of a question one of my friends asked me. “Why do you do Sunday Worship service the way you do? Why can’t it just be a picnic in a park or a couple of people coming together in someone’s living room and talking about God? Why is there a preacher and a format of sit, stand, sing, recite the Lord’s prayer, offering, etc.” This really got me thinking, where did we get our form of Sunday Worship Service from? And why is it the same after all these years, even to the same hymns, “Crown him with many Crowns”? Hamel is asking very important questions: why do we do what we do? He also mentioned Redeemer Church and how their innovation is centered around values, not programs. I like his advice to stop the denial and ask our unbelieving neighbors, how are we doing as a church? Or paying an atheist to come and offer their comments on the service. Someone posted a question on facebook, would your community know if your church closed it’s doors? Can we handle the truth of the answer to these questions? Is the church serving the world/community or itself? For example, schools exist for the community. Without the community the school would have no one to teach. Without schools the community would be missing a place of learning and education. Would society be better or worse without “Christians”? Are we making an impact? I think the church’s relationship to the community should be symbiotic. I like what Hamel said, “Churches are not supposed to be in the religion business.” They should look like AA or habitat for humanity. The equilibrium of society is being punctuated now and we have to chose whether we are going to commit to unprecedented solutions for our current unprecedented problems or stay committed to out programs and identity. Hamel’s presentation was very sobering. Thanks for sharing this!

I am reminded of this article because of Joe’s thoughts on denial. Clearly we all know now that most of ubf leadership is indeed a church in denial.

Robert Irvine once described his restoration methods when he faces leadership in denial, and I agree. He said “When people are in denial, you have to shock them to wake them up to the reality around them.” People don’t like this, generally, but they thank you later.

Back in 2011, I resigned from ubf in infamous fashion in order to do just that: send shockwaves through the organization and wake people up. Reconciliation, redemption and the gospel were of utmost importance to me (and continue to be now 3 years later). But I had to shock people to get beyond their denial.

I still very much agree with my blog posts from 3 years ago after resigning.

I received honorable mention in the ubf newsletter.

Then I decided it was time to make it clear just exactly what my reasons were for leaving.

I wanted to move on and forget ubf forever. But the Holy Spirit kept prompting me to stay in the conversation, both online here and in person.

“South Koreans and Korean-Americans are really, really in denial…so much that the Korean/Korean-American refusal to admit faults/shortcomings/wrong-doing makes me sick to my stomach. 

When will Koreans/Korean-Americans admit honestly that Korean culture is NOT a good, positive influence?! Until Koreans and Korean-Americans admit that Korean culture must change…until Koreans/Korean-Americans admit that Korean culture must be overhauled, hurting people like 2007 Virginia Tech shooter Seung-Hui Cho and Oikos University shooter One L. Goh will continue to go on destructive rampages. 

Unless we Koreans/Korean-Americans honestly admit that we all need to change….unless we honestly admit that Korean culture must change for the better, history will probably continue to repeat itself.”

(source)

We don’t need superior evaluation skills to determine the difference between worldly sorrow and godly sorrow. We just need to look at the response our sorrow produces. Has a church been earnest, eager and ready for justice to be done? Or has a church been silent, regretful and attempting to cover over sins?

If we say Jesus was the model, example or perfecter, not everybody repented at Jesus’ preaching, even though he was as good a model or preacher as it gets. In fact you could argue most people had a stunted response at best, even all the disciples ran away at one point. The Holy Spirit uses Bible teaching and stirs people’s hearts and consciences. In Acts 17 the Berean Jews as a group looked into the Scriptures with eagerness. They had better character than those in Thessalonica. So it had something to do with Berean Jews having eagerness, something to do with Paul’s Bible teaching and the Holy Spriit all coinciding. Paul was more fruitful than the Pharisees who may have sometimes taught the Bible. At the same time nobody repented when Noah built the ark except his immediate family members. Was it Noah’s fault? The Bible doesn’t teach that. Peter was successful on the day of Pentecost. That didn’t mean he didn’t have something to learn. The 4 gospels are different, because people are different. The messenger is just sent by God. He’s not God. He proclaims God’s message. It’s up to people to listen and respond to God’s message. You can always check if it’s authentic, by checking the Bible. Human culture usually isn’t based on God’s word. You’re unlikely to find people naturally repenting.

Psalm 33:3 says, “Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy.” Why a “new song”? It means to think about God freshly. People find ways to avoid suffering. They want to be accepted by other people, so they imitate them, so they will feel flattered. Or they remember a time they were genuinely moved and replay it. It takes energy and focus to sing a new song. Some people think the “new song” is rebellious for not wanting to sing the same old song in the accepted manner. We have feelings everyday. I have to make a conscious effort to relate to God newly. Even if I read part of the Bible before, maybe at a later date it takes on a multi-fold meaning or becomes clear.

When I was a kid, I went to Presbyterian church. Somehow the meaning was largely hidden from me. I dozed off in church probably. Was that because the sermon was bad or didn’t relate to me? I don’t know exactly, but the Holy Spirit moved my heart later. I mean everyday people make wrong decisions. They have to learn from their mistakes. They have to go do it the wrong way, maybe many times. Eventually you may realize that you did it the wrong way and that God was right.

We should just try to bear with people in the fellowship since everybody in fellowship is a forgiven sinner. That’s not easy. I thank God for great people in fellowship in Mongolia. God prepared their hearts in advance. If nobody decided to bother preaching, there would be no Bible and no ministry or changed people–period. Therefore, ministers are necessary. God will deal with people he’s not pleased with. If you think you have superior evaluation skills, then you can only say that after you’ve become a more successful preacher or pastor. God bless the group of people on their way right now to Huvsgul aimag to share the good news.

The first issue for me is whether the person who is telling me to do something is in a position of authority. Of course, we are all part of the priesthood of believes, but not all are called to be pastors, or teachers, or elders, etc. Those we are called to submit to in the church must be biblically-ordained leaders (1Ti 3:1ff).

The second issue is whether what I am being told to do is in line with Scripture. There are many well-meaning people in the church telling others what to do (and rebuking them when they do not do it) even though they have no biblical basis for it. However, the Bible leaves a lot of room for individual autonomy and conscience (Ro 14:1ff) in respect to personal decisions.

Ultimately, a believer’s authority–that is, any believer, whether they are clergy or laity–comes from God. If we stick to what He has commanded in His Word we will be on much firmer ground, regardless of what side of the “authority” we are on.

I hear what your saying about the clergy/laity distinction. It makes sense that such distinctions funnel people into particular expectations that can actually be fulfilled by both groups (e.g., evangelization). But I am unclear about these historical examples you are referring to. Your previous statement made it seem as if it was common knowledge that making distinctions between laity and clergy leads to a “sucking away of the Holy Spirit.”

That is a strong claim you are making against the majority of Christian Churches many of which justify their practices based on several bible passages that make this distinguishment and also show a passing on of authority (Acts 1:15-26; 1 Tim 3:1; 1 Tim 1:2, 2 Tim 1:2, 2:1; 1 Tim 1:18, Titus 1:4, 1 Cor 4:17).

I think you and I may just have a fundamentally different idea of what is the Church. This might account for our differences in belief on this matter.

Alan Hirsch, an Australian missiologist, says, “The clergy is of the devil.” What he means is that once a distinction is made in the church between clergy/laity, leader/member, senior/junior, it paralyzes the church in 2 ways:

1) the laity thinks the clergy does most of the work of the church.

2) the clergy expects the laity to submit to their directives and orders.

Such an “institutionalized” model of the church, with a “papacy of all pastors” will suck all the life and spirit out of the church, as it has historically. She loses what causes the church to grow and expand, which is always organic, and by the Spirit.

But I think you bring up an interesting point about the role of pastor/priest vs. the priesthood of all believer. Maybe you can write a blog about it one day for all of us to discuss.

In a previous post: http://www.ubfriends.org/2010/11/why-do-we-have-divisions/, John Stott’s quote is simply classic: “Too many (Christian leaders) behave as if they believed not in the priesthood of all believers but in the papacy of all pastors.”

Why are Christian leaders so afraid to “rest”? They think it is a sin; it is being lazy; it is being irresponsible; that their church will suffer big time in their absence; that rebels will arise to cause trouble or usurp their power; etc.

More fundamentally, I think it is because of their default to work righteousness. They core identity is defined by their position or status as a church leader. It is their idol that if they let go of it (even for a sabbatical rest), they lose their core sense of identity. This, I believe, is how Tim Keller would explain it.

But I think that this is really hard, if not humanly impossible for a church leader to let go of their deep sense of worth, value and significance coming from their position/work as a church leader.

If you like St. Ignatious, you might also enjoy reading JoseMaria Escriba (the founder of Opus Dei) as well.

This seems a tough call to make. How do you differentiate between a pastor who just fears change between one who genuinly thinks his way of doing things is right? For isntance, some pastors dont believe in using musical instruments because they have an outdated notion that rock N roll and all instruments used to play rock and roll (i.e., guitar) are demonic. Whereas others might feel like they can make a good biblical argument against the use of musical instruments.

It’s a tough call but I think posts like this atleast encourage pastors to think about it themselves. The message in this post definately seems relevant to more than just pastors but laymen like me as well. I often try to spiritualize my own sinful inclinations. If someone tries my patience, I blow up on them and justify it by saying that I need to speak the truth to them even if it hurts. But in reality, I just lost my patience.

St. Ignatius spiritual exercises are an excellent practice for things like this. If you spend just 10 minutes reflecting on your day and consider where your heart was during your daily walk with God, it can really show you the ulterior motives that may have been behind some of your actions.

“Did I help that homeless women because I saw Christ in her, or was it because I wanted to simply to look charitable to that girl from accounting.”?

Nearly all priests, pastors and clergymen/women in churches around the world and throughout history are required to take a sabbatical. Our work and our piety is not the center of Christian life. I would suggest that Jesus is the center of our faith, and building up relationships with our neighbor is to be our priority in any work we do. Love God and love your neighbor.

This presentation by Gary Hamel (I hope you get a chance to watch it) is more about the psychology of church leaders. Clearly Hamel is talking about evangelical Protestants, not Catholics, who have a very different model for decisionmaking. He draws upon insights from organizational psychology to show how and why leaders refuse to adapt to a rapidly changing world, and they justify their lack or responsiveness by appealing to moralistic arguments and spiritual principles which, they are convinced, are mandated by the Bible but actually are not.

One thing that seem consistent throughout your post though was the role of pastors and leaders in making these changes. While they are definately in the best position to make the change, arent regular church members and part time pastors the ones who ultimately create the denominations because of a different vision they themselves have in what a Church should look like?

Often times this can happen precisely because of a change that a pastor instituted that they may not like.

Because in a culture of “read the bible for yourself” and “the Holy Spirit is telling me this…” I just dont see how any change can be really authoritative. It is just, pastors so and so’s opinion on why we should change.

Let’s think of it from a business model. Say a group of employee’s work for company Kristos. And the CEO believes that their fridays should be casual. Ok, that’s great. But what if 2/3 of the company don’t like casual fridays? And what if they can easily get a job for another company if they are dissatisfied?

Where does the CEO turn towards to justify his decision for casual fridays? Should he turn to the company manual (i.e,. bible)? But what authority can that have over people if it is usurped by the company taught belief that every employee can interpret the company manual for themselves?

What you wrote is surely a couple of very sad and painful indictments and injunctions about us Christians and our own beloved churches:

“our churches show all the unmistakable signs of a company that is doomed to fail because it is stuck in the past and clinging to an outmoded…model.”

“a church or ministry that refuses to change can keep chugging along for years, run by leaders who become increasingly out of touch but answer to no one, until the whole enterprise becomes socially irrelevant.”

“…outsiders’ perceptions of Christianity reflect a church infatuated with itself.”

“Christians have been willing to argue, divide, sacrifice our lives or even kill one another (figuratively or literally) over beliefs and practices which, when viewed from the standpoint of God’s eternal kingdom, are truly not important.”