Comments on: The Importance of Being Disillusioned http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/ for friends of University Bible Fellowship Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:34:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.3.1 By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-18828 Fri, 17 Jul 2015 17:48:44 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-18828 +1 Wow! Very, very powerful. It’s so much easier to “stay busy” than to silently search my soul for salient sickness, sorrow and sadness. The movie Inside Out expressed powerfully the impact of sadness.

]]> By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-18826 Fri, 17 Jul 2015 17:24:35 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-18826 “Disillusionment takes us to the question: what does it profit a man if he gains this world and loses himself? And disillusionment exposes that while we were supposedly serving the kingdom, we somehow became the king, and when we thought we were following Jesus, we inexplicably made him a servant of our dreams. The only real tragedy is the leader who never allows disillusionment to wear him to a nub and expose the godlessness of his busyness.”

― Dan B. Allender, Leading with a Limp: Take Full Advantage of Your Most Powerful Weakness

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3453 Sat, 24 Mar 2012 20:18:25 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3453 Maria, this is the kind of heart-moving story we need to hear more of. I see God’s ministry of reconciliation at work through such events as these. Having just spent a weekend at Westloop, I can see that our brothers and sisters there are indeed demonstrating the vibrant, life-changing faith that brings about healing and praise to God, to the amazement of many like in Mark 5:20.

]]> By: Maria Peace http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3452 Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:08:13 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3452 Thanks Sharon for this article. Vitaly I am glad you are starting a new church. I am sorry about your friend that died of drugs. One Bible passage that helped me overcome my dellusion was Mark 5:1-20. We did a skit on it. Its in Youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsrNE_PO1kg At the end of the passage the demon possess man asked if he could go with Jesus. Jesus told him to go back to his home town and to tell them what had happened to him. Jesus didn’t train him but told him to go back to be with his family and friends who knew him. I believe Jesus wants us to be a witness first to our friends and family. When my father was dying I left our ministry and came to him in California. Miraculously my father overcame because we prayed for him to make for his 50th anniversary four months later. My brother who left UBF 20 years ago and who began Philippine UBF was so moved that I came to our father in his time of need. While I was with them I was able to give a message on John 3:16. When it came time to let go of our father who was on a respitory machine my brother couldn’t give the approval eventhough he was a medical doctor. They waited for me. I came to California a third time to get our father unplugged. He died in my arms. On the funeral ceremony before his cremation my brother asked me to give the farewell message. We had the funeral ceremony in Chicago because the rest of our family were there. We had at Westloop UBF and my brother who haven’t spoken to Dr. Ben for 20 years met and reconciled their relationship.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3451 Tue, 20 Mar 2012 14:06:34 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3451 Thanks for pointing that out Sharon. Yes I wish I could rid myself of all business-like language when discussing the church.

These words struck me from your article:

“And I interpreted my eager desire to bring others into this life of obedience as my spiritual love for them. I worked hard to introduce people to Jesus through Bible study.”

I am learning that I also used to view all Scripture through the lens of obedience. But grace is the correct lens to use, as all the inspired preachers found the last 2,000 years. When I see Scripture through the eyes of the grace of God, I see that holiness is the expression of love stemming from faith in the grace displayed at the cross and faith in the present grace the Spirit is wanting to pour out on believers.

I also used to believe that working hard out of thankfulness was the primary ethic of Christian life. But this led to joy being only a sense of accomplishment. This does not last. This is not the living hope Christ is offering.
 

]]> By: sharon http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3450 Tue, 20 Mar 2012 13:44:51 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3450 Brian, perhaps the terms negotiable and nonnegotiable sound business like.  I think what they are referring to in this context however, is the process of spiritual discernment that is to be guided by the Holy Spirit in the context of dialogue between people.  Chris, I agree with you that the nonnegotiables will be very limited…I also like the Apostles Creed, especially having read Roland Allen’s overview of the ministry of Paul in his book, Missionary Methods.  Paul set up a few pillars..the historical gospel story (which became the Apostle Creed I think), study of the OT in light of Jesus who fulfilled the law, baptism and the Lord’s Supper.  Then he left the church to work out its salvation and conflicts that arose “with fear and trembling”,  which I think means humble dialogue with the Holy Spirit, the Scriptures and each other.  His letters to the church not only urge this kind of dialogue but are an example of this process.
 

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3449 Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:17:03 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3449 “I feel like I have to make this confession of faith everyday to my soul in almost everything I do.”

Amen John. Your words demonstrate that the gospel is taking hold of your soul! In fact, we can never live today’s life on yesterday’s grace. Troubles are new every day, but thank God His love, compassions, grace and mercies are new every morning! The book of Lamentations details the lowest, ugliest, worst point of Israel’s history. Yet in the middle of it all, in the most eloquently designed book of the Bible, God says: “Yet this I call to mind and therefore I have hope:  Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail.  They are new every morning; great is your faithfulness.  I say to myself, “The LORD is my portion; therefore I will wait for him.” (Lamentations 3:21-24)

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3448 Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:06:25 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3448 Amen Vitaly! We do not cease to be human when we become Christian. It ought to be strange that we cast off friendships for the sake of “our truth” or “our best ways”. I firmly believe that God never calls us to crucify our conscience, our integrity or our humanity. God desires to pour out His infinite bucket of grace and mercy, redeeming our humanity for His good will.

Your words remind me of “common grace”. For the sake of obedience or mission we cannot rule out God’s common grace given before the fall (ie. marriage, sunshine, etc). We are human beings who need friendships and are designed to delight in beauty and majesty and rejoice with the truth!

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3447 Mon, 19 Mar 2012 20:49:30 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3447 The only “non-negotiable” and only uniting factor is the gospel of Jesus: justification, sanctification and glorification by the Spirit through faith in the grace of God demonstrated in the blood of Jesus shed on the cross. This, then, is the only belief that invokes an effervescent desire in me to bear shame, insults, denials, and sufferings unto death. Stephen understood this and died not out of thankfulness, not out of obedience (Acts 7:1-59) but because he was a man “full of God’s grace and power” Acts 6:8.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3446 Mon, 19 Mar 2012 20:42:10 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3446 I think we should remember the difference between conforming a community to a pre-planned set of standards and “being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit”  (Ephesians 2:22). A Christian community is not a business-like fellowship of people who pursue goals with a sense of accomplishment. A Christian community is a gathering of believers in Jesus Christ who are being sanctified by God and led by His Spirit to be His witnesses of the abounding love, joy, peace and transforming faith that produces overflowing acts of kindness and goodness. 

Such radical transformation will only happen by faith in the grace of God and only if and when God has determined it in any particular community. And when such gospel-powered revival occurs, it will not take decades; like Saul who met Jesus on the way to Damascus, it can be instant and will most often cause rapid change as new wine fermenting. 

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3445 Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:56:08 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3445 Thanks for this excellent post, Sharon. Bonhoeffer articulates so clearly the stark difference between a spiritual and human community. I would say that most, if not all problems in any church, stem from defaulting to a human community, while insisting and masquarading itself as a spiritual community. 2 of your bullet points are worth repeating:

* Human community will seek to make people conform to its well-intentioned principles. Thus the community is highly idealistic. It may regard itself as “purely spiritual” but ends up following its own idealistic delusions.

* The human community won’t tolerate resistance when the community is threatened. The one who “seriously and stubbornly resists” the community’s agenda will be treated as an enemy, with “hatred, contempt, and calumny,” even if that person speaks the truth.

This is quite a chilling post that addresses spiritual abuse in the church: http://blogs.christianpost.com/smallpreacher-biggod/spiritual-abuse-shepherds-ruling-like-royalty-8803/ A church that abuses others is invariably or predominantly a human community, rather than a spiritual one.

]]> By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3444 Sat, 17 Mar 2012 17:02:44 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3444 “Camille Bishop suggested that community change is a process by which the nonnegotiables(what must be obeyed) are separated from the negotiables.  This process will be one of open dialogue., one in which the human and idealistic elements  are exposed and rejected.  Any attempt to adopt or maintain nonnegotiables based on human zeal or idealism must be rejected.” This is true. We have to work on it. It will take time I believe.

]]> By: sharon http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3443 Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:36:34 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3443 Thanks, John, for the reminder of God’s sovereign good purpose in everything!  To face the ugly is a painful but always redemptive process.  When we look back, or are challenged by the other to address some harm of the past we do find God’s overflowing sovereign grace which never changes. But at that point of new understanding, we must also seek reconciliation with the one we hurt. Actually, Jesus says that we must seek reconciliation with those who hurt us, too.(Mt5, Mt18) This is truly essential and dare I say, “nonnegotiable”.

]]> By: sharon http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3442 Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:15:20 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3442 Thanks Vitaly, your story is so poignant and hopeful.  Yes!  It’s like being converted over again.  It’s like Peters “conversion” experience entering the house of the Gentile believers.  May God bless your new church!

]]> By: John Y http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3441 Sat, 17 Mar 2012 15:29:03 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3441 Wow. this was a great article. And a convicting one, for an “idealistic” and “visionary dreamer” like myself. Thanks for sharing this, Sharon.
 
I wonder if the Gospel necessarily leads one to face disillusionment with oneself and one’s community in order to recognize the spiritual impoverishment of even our best and noble “spiritualized” human efforts & community. And that the Gospel, though necessarily bringing us through such disillusionment, does not abandon us there; but also gives the hope of fulfillment through the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. There is Death; but there is also Resurrection via the Gospel, as your article (and life) reflects so well here.
 
Therefore, this makes me wonder whether disillusionment + redemptive hope = fulfillment via the Gospel. In other words, thank God he disillusions us over our human ideals and efforts–even if those ideals and efforts are toward something “spiritual.” But thank God that he also redeems us from all the mess we created and graciously takes what we gave him (ugly as they are) so that they may reach deeper and beautiful fulfillment in Christ Jesus.
 
So I wonder if redemptive hope allows us to look back at even our worst moments of human living/community and identify the ways that God in his redemptive grace had been there all this time–even in our blind inadequacies–those moments when we were so far, far away from Him in our human zeal and idealism though it seemed to us that we were at our closest to Him. And that perhaps even all those ugly inadequate moments also became the means in which our deeper longings for God and for Love and for true Spiritual Community were reaching toward its fulfillment via the Grace of Christ. It is not to minimize the true harms, evils and wrongs that were experienced or caused in the midst of human zeal and human idealism. But it is also acknowledging in our redemptive hope that Kingdom work is all about turning something quite ugly in our lives into something quite beautiful. God who began His good work will be faithful to bring in to completion (Philippians 1:6)
 
I guess these days, I feel like there are times where I have to make a (modified) Joseph’s confession of faith at the end of Genesis 50:20, except that I’m talking to myself both as Joseph and as the brothers of his failed community, (John Y speaking to John Y) “John Y, what you meant for good in your idealistic and human zeal and passion but ended up being shown as evil and inadequate despite your sincerest intentions, nevertheless God meant it for good…” I feel like I have to make this confession of faith everyday to my soul in almost everything I do. Otherwise the constant disillusionment I feel tempts me toward a form of despair and self-hatred. But what keeps me going each day is the expectation of experiencing the Gospel each day. That He will not abandon me in my disillusionment over myself and with others and with the community; rather after shepherding me through the dark, shadowy valleys of life, he leads me to a place of deeper, refreshing Fulfillment in Christ Jesus. Goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life (Psalm 23:6), especially in those painful moments of disillusionment.
 
Sharon, thanks again for sharing your reflections on this book. I’m even more motivated to read Life Together in more depth.

]]> By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3440 Sat, 17 Mar 2012 14:33:03 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3440 The big problem is discerning the negotiable from the nonnegotiable. For example, Peter Chang, one of the top UBF men, writes in a similar vein about “core values” and “form” – when he writes about “core values” he actually means “nonnegotiables”. However, in Peter Chang’s view, testimony writing belongs to the “nonnegotiables”, even though it is not even mentioned in the Bible and no other mainline church has such a tradition. So the controversy already starts here. The “nonnegotiables” in a church should be kept very limited and reduced to our core beliefs like the Apostle’s Creed.

]]> By: sharon http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3439 Sat, 17 Mar 2012 12:51:34 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3439 Yes, I agree with you.  Thank you for engaging in this dialogue.  It will take a lot of time.  This is what I am asking.  Can we find practical examples of community where submission and obedience doesn’t go too far, doesn’t result in hurt and abuse?  I think that this is what Bonhoeffer was working toward in his context.  What is a good model for us of godly submission?  Then I ask, what will it look like in our context?  While it is helpful to see it in another context, ours is unique and will require a lot of searching dialogue.   We are not a seminary, or a monastery.   We are a mulitcultural, multigenerational group of families living out our lives in families, jobs and communities. Camille Bishop suggested that community change is a process by which the nonnegotiables(what must be obeyed) are separated from the negotiables.  This process will be one of open dialogue., one in which the human and idealistic elements  are exposed and rejected.  Any attempt to adopt or maintain nonnegotiables based on human zeal or idealism must be rejected.

]]> By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3438 Sat, 17 Mar 2012 12:22:16 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3438 Hi Sharon,as you said in your previous article, dialogue is always important. We should keep dialogue with respect. More importantly, we have to keep listening to the word of God. Keep learning with open mind is important. Of course both side. Keep loving one another (John13.34,35) as Jesus commanded. We may not solve all the problems in short time. But with the help of God we can solve many problems in God’s time. We have much more common denominators than we think. We are redeemed by the blood of Jesus. We are beloved by Him. This is the basis of mutual love and respect. I like to quote the rule of the Benedict: “Listen, Obey, Pray and Work”.

]]> By: Vitaly http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3437 Sat, 17 Mar 2012 03:18:59 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3437 Thank you, Sharon. So much space for thinking and commenting. I am thankful to the Lord that dissallusion came to me one day so that now I know what is really wrong. In another article comments Joe asked Ben about what is right and how it should be in a church. I think this article is a continuation of Dr.Ben’s answer. For 16 years I was “other-worldy” and didn’t listen to my parents, didn’t even talk to my friends from my “before-conversion” life and I “absolutely obeyed” and pressed some of my sheep so hard that they didn’t just left UBF but left God and christianity as well. I didn’t listen to them. I invited my sister and my best friend who was humanly like a brother for me to UBF. But they didn’t match the demanding standards of the organisation. I understood that in my deep heart, I understood that I wasn’t right rebuking them and leaving them and refusing even to talk. You write “Now I only wish that I hadn’t resisted it for so long”. The same with me. But a sad part of my story is that my best friend died because of drugs while I was a “protocol and exclusive” christian who lived nearby. I left him and knew nothing about his life for years and learnt many things only at his funeral. Now I am trying to start a church that welcomes all kinds of people and Joe’s referring to MPPC and this site as a whole are very helpful for me. I am trying also to BFriend my parents, my relatives, my friends and mates and those who left our UBF chapter and my former sheep. It’s nice to see that they don’t oppose friendship and never wanted. Many have just considered me a very strange and ill-minded sectarian who has been decepted and “illusioned” by koreans. I feel that I am coming home like the prodigal son and Jesus and many people have been waiting for me. I think that dissillusion is not only important it’s like a second conversion in Christ.

]]> By: sharon http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3436 Fri, 16 Mar 2012 22:38:12 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3436 Are you saying that we have to ignore those who come to us with their genuine concern and opposition and tell them “see you in heaven” rather than seek genuine reconciliation in this life?  Perhaps this is not what you mean, but you do seem to be unwilling to discuss the issues that have been raised.  I hope someday we can truly discuss them freely and openly and trust God to bring about his good purpose.  But I guess I shouldn’t demand it :)

]]> By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3435 Fri, 16 Mar 2012 22:20:45 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3435 Hi Sharon, it is my understanding that the earlier we are disillusioned with others and ourselves, the better. Many times we put our hope in others. Only Jesus is our ultimate hope. God’s will and love for sinners like us is also inscrutable. We will be surprised to meet many people in heaven whom we do not expect to meet. And we will live with them and with the Lord forever!

]]> By: sharon http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3434 Fri, 16 Mar 2012 21:54:08 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3434 Hello,  I have a question that I am still wrestling with that your quotation and comments brings to mind.  Can a person be disillusioned and thankful at the same time?  I want to keep in mind that it is the human community that is most demanding, according to Bonhoeffer.   We must acknowledge that and discern carefully what thankfulness for Christian community truly is.  I don’t think we must be thankful for a demanding human community, but rather be disillusioned and if necessary speak out for the truth of the gospel.   It was after I stopped demanding from others who “seriously and stubbornly opposed me” that I could be genuinely thankful for our community in Christ.  In my mind serious oppositon to us cannot be equated with unthankfulness.  

]]> By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3433 Fri, 16 Mar 2012 21:26:21 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3433 Thank you so much, Sharon, for the wonderful article. You said, “The spiritual community is ruled by the Holy Spirit, and relationships among the members are mediated by Jesus Christ. Instead of speaking to a person about God, they are more likely to speak to God about that person. And instead of speaking about one another covertly, they again bring their concerns about one another to God.” It is a great privilege and blessing that we could live in the spiritual community. As you pointed out, how wonderful it is to have a vertical relationship with God in prayer and personal struggle through our mediator Jesus Christ. Bonhoeffer said in the same book about Christian community life in Jesus Christ as great blessing on earth to be accepted with grateful heart. Everything is God’s gift and there are many things to be thankful for.

“Because God has already laid the only foundation of our fellowship, because God has bound us together in one body with other Christians in Jesus Christ, long before we entered into common life with them, we enter into that common life not as demanders but as thankful recipients.”

]]> By: Joe http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3432 Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:50:05 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3432 Another excellent article, my dear. But I must ask the question: Who’s your covering?

]]> By: Timothy Ha http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3431 Fri, 16 Mar 2012 17:37:20 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3431 Thank you very much, Sharon, for this article. Very good quotes from Bonhoeffer, too. I also want to re–read him after having read his book on discipleship 20 years ago. These days I am reading about him from Eric Metaxas biography of Bonhoeffer which also covers a lot on the church of that time and conflict with Nazis. Highly recommending this book, too (http://amzn.to/bonhoefferbook) 

]]> By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/16/the-importance-of-being-disillusioned/#comment-3430 Fri, 16 Mar 2012 17:21:35 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4468#comment-3430 Wow. Bonhoeffer is amazing. Thanks a lot for posting that!

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