Comments on: Listeners Are Born, Then Unmade http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/07/listeners-are-born-then-unmade/ for friends of University Bible Fellowship Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:34:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.3.1 By: joshua http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/07/listeners-are-born-then-unmade/#comment-4947 Thu, 10 Jan 2013 01:33:55 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5285#comment-4947 Thanks for your response, Sharon. It’s instructive to hear the journey that you and Joe went through. I think that one of the most precious memories I have from my childhood are the many times my mother drove me in the car and we would talk, and she especially would listen to whatever I had to say. I could express anything and feel that she would weigh what I had to say and allow herself or her ideas to be changed. I really thank God for such an experience; it has been really a huge help in learning how I should listen to my wife and, more and more, my children. Although I have a long ways to go still!

]]>
By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/07/listeners-are-born-then-unmade/#comment-4946 Tue, 08 Jan 2013 12:54:22 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5285#comment-4946 Sharon, I had forgotten that the turning point you mentioned, the moment when I actually started to validate your words, came after the Marriage Savers training.

What they taught us was a very simple exercise called the Wish List. Sharon had to verbalize something that she wished would happen in our relationship. I was supposed to listen carefully and, instead of reacting or becoming defensive, ask her questions about what she meant until I really understood it. Then I had to repeat the wish back to her in my own words and ask, “Is that what you meant?” When she agreed, “Yes, that is what I meant,” the round was over, and then it was my turn to do the same for her. It’s just a basic communication technique called reflective listening.

I recall that Wish List exercise being very uncomfortable for me. In fact, I couldn’t do really it. Sharon’s first wish was, “I wish that we — you and I and the kids — could spend more time together and do more things together as a family.” Instinctively, I reacted. I made some excuses for why I hadn’t been making time for our family to be together, and I tried to propose some quick-fix solutions. Then, when it was my turn to state a wish, mine was basically a retaliation. When the session was over, I felt very inadequate and embarassed. But it gave me an inclination that something was wrong, and as Sharon mentioned, it was shortly after that when things began to improve.

]]>
By: Sharon Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/07/listeners-are-born-then-unmade/#comment-4945 Tue, 08 Jan 2013 12:23:46 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5285#comment-4945 Hi Joshua,

I was recently reading some of my old journals. Though our marriage was basically happy, I struggled a lot because of the dynamics that Joe mentioned. For the most part, I saw it as my fault that our communication wasn’t ideal(a habit of mine), and cried out to God to help me. It took a while for us to understand what was really going on between us. A major turning point came after we attended a training seminar for Marriage Savers several years ago(haha…we thought we were ready to teach others!). In the training, we did a listening exercise in which we each had a turn to verbalize something we wished we could see/or change in our spouse. Our spouse then was required to simply verbalize what he/she heard without judgment or interpretation. We stumbled with this, it was so new. But a few weeks later, I remember the very moment when Joe put this into practice in our relationship. I remember feeling loved as I had never been loved before. This was a major turning point. We could learn a lot from groups that have made the practice of listening a cornerstone for real ministry.

]]>
By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/07/listeners-are-born-then-unmade/#comment-4944 Tue, 08 Jan 2013 11:51:59 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5285#comment-4944 Yes, the title was a play on words, a reference to the book Disciples are Made, Not Born.

There’s another cultural reference that perhaps you didn’t get. “I triple-dog-dare you.” It comes from the movie A Christmas Story.

]]>
By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/07/listeners-are-born-then-unmade/#comment-4942 Tue, 08 Jan 2013 11:33:02 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5285#comment-4942 Hi Joshua.

With regard to your first point: Don’t get me started. OK, you got me started. When one leader or a group of leaders believe it is their job to call meetings and set the agenda for a faith community, I think it is essential for them to provide opportunities for members to tell alternative stories, including ones that seem opposed to the community’s dominant story, and to listen carefully and validate those stories. If they fail to do so, they gradually lose the ability to see what God wants to do among them. I think that is what Bonhoeffer was describing when he said that not listen to one another eventually makes us deaf to God.

About your second point: This is what I’ve experienced. Whenever my wife brought up a difficult subject, I wrongly assumed that she wanted me to do something about it and fix the problem. So whenever she mentioned a problem, I felt burdened and tried to end the conversation as quickly as possible, which only made matters worse. My assumption that I was supposed to fix all the problems became a very serious barrier to listening. Where did I get that idea? Perhaps it came from misunderstandings about marriage and leadership. Somewhere along the way, I had picked up the idea that (a) the husband is always supposed to maintain a posture of strength and leadership over the wife, being something like a father figure, and (b) a leader is one who is always supposed to diagnose problems and prescribe solutions. The problem with that theology is simple: It doesn’t work! Gradually it dawned on me that my wife was not interested in sharing a home with a master-problem-solver. What she wanted and needed was a friend, someone to create a safe environment for her where she could simply be herself and express herself and say anything, even outrageous things, and be heard and accepted, not judged or corrected. Living with me year after year when I tried to be a master-problem-solver or master-thought-corrector must have been unbearable. It’s a miracle she didn’t leave me.

]]>
By: Vitaly http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/07/listeners-are-born-then-unmade/#comment-4941 Tue, 08 Jan 2013 06:51:34 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5285#comment-4941 The title reminds me a very frequent statement, “Disciples are not born, they are made!” ))

]]>
By: Vitaly http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/07/listeners-are-born-then-unmade/#comment-4940 Tue, 08 Jan 2013 05:45:19 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5285#comment-4940 Such a good article, Joe! Again! It seems that you expressed what I have been trying to do in our Bible study group. To prepare a Bible study I read a lot, so each time I had many things to say and to share. But so often I was amazed by what other people say. They said about things I would never think of that beautiful way before God. A desire to catch those voices of the Holy Spirit appeared in me, a desire to listen to Jesus through my precious brothers and sisters. I remember how the famous and very educated Augustine sometimes asked difficult philosophic questions to his uneducated mother and received answers from God, from the Holy Spirit through his Christian mother. (He didn’t think he was superior and above his mother in the church). Recently in a Baptist church there was time of prayer and an elder sister was praying among others. Wow, that was a prayer in which every word was so precious, so meaningful, so spirited and speaking to the very heart! After the service my wife and I agreed that the prayer was the main and the most “heart-moving” part. Even now I can’t imagine how a human is able to pray so beautifully! I am sure that the sister is a very close friend of Jesus (and of course, a very good listener of Jesus’ words). I think that “equality” is truly important for listening. And I personally agree to be even less equal for the sake of listening to some people. (And I suppose that this is a foundation for spiritual authority in the church. When brothers and sisters WANT to listen to someone, when they have a God-given desire in their hearts, this someone is worthy to be a pastor, a leader in the church. Not vice verso, when some self-acclaimed leader tells others to listen to him and obey his commands as God’s commands). And about listening to one’s wife and children you are so right, and it is surely a very weak side of my life. I used to ignore the family, not just because I was so many times told to do so, but also because it is my weakness. There are very good points about Job and Psalms in the article. They are very helpful for deeper understanding the message of the books. Thank you.

]]>
By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/07/listeners-are-born-then-unmade/#comment-4939 Tue, 08 Jan 2013 00:34:30 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5285#comment-4939 This is an excellent point Joe, “We are to be his hands and feet and mouths and especially his ears.” I’ve always thought of Christ-followers as being the “hands and feet and mouths” of an invisible God…but it is sobering to note that we ought to also (and especially) be His ears.

One thing I’ve observed about written communication is the value of questions. I’ve learned that if I don’t ask questions, I have no right to expect helpful responses. And if I ask too many questions, my thoughts become rhetorical. Sometimes rhetoric is powerful, such as in the last four chapters of Job where we find at least 77 questions– all with rather obvious answers such that no answer can be given.

So here is my attempt to listen to your article by reacting to your questions. By the way, I view dialogue as a sort of pinball machine. Someone presents an idea or concept and then various people react honestly. As the idea bounces around, we are all edified until the idea falls out the bottom of the pinball machine.

You asked some questions…

“Are you a good listener?”
> When I think of my teenage children, my answer is a resounding “no”! I think your suggestion is helpful– what do other people say? Throughout my life I’ve been told I am a very good listener, mainly because I had no voice to speak and rarely, if ever, spoke. One person got mad once and told me I had to at least say “hello” when walking by friends! But I consider myself in need of learning to really listen. I am finding that I need to “hear” the emotion in people’s words. Sometimes I ignore some words all-together and respond based on feelings. I have much to learn about listening. I now love to speak, in case you couldn’t tell by my 5 blogs :)

“Why do we stop being good listeners?”
> One reason I think is because we adults are told not to be emotional, and typically our churches have told us that emotions are bad. We’re told that anger is a sin, or that criticism is evil. I find such allegations unfounded in Scripture. Yes anger and criticism, and other emotions need to be checked from time to time.

“Does anyone have the right to impose that requirement on another person?”
> Another sobering point. I realize that just because I am comfortable airing my bleeding heart online, not everyone is. Many desire in person meetings. I wish I could oblige in-person meetings, but I’m so far away from nearly all of my old friends, and I’m hundreds of miles away from the people I really need to talk to.

“Isn’t it interesting how, when you read the Psalms, so many of these prayers are full of anger, vitriol and other unpleasant and raw emotion?”
> Yes! That is one reason I love reading “The Message” these days. I find that I cannot read the NIV without the words grating across my soul like a cheese grater. For several months last year I really hated reading the bible. But when I started reading The Message, I fell in love with Scripture once again. I found that my theology was like tinker-toys built upon specific phrases in the NIV. The Message shattered those weak constructs and the Spirit spoke God’s word like never before. Along with that, my emotions have started to grow back (after having been cut out of my by many life events). Someone recently blogged about an interesting observation: God is not a Christian. If we read the Scriptures and hear their tone and emotion, we find that God is very different from the type of person Christendom expects all of us to be. The Psalms are a great example. Galatians is another.

“Can’t you just hear my inner child crying out to be heard?”
> Yea. Well maybe. I’m trying to!

]]>
By: joshua http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/07/listeners-are-born-then-unmade/#comment-4938 Mon, 07 Jan 2013 23:28:49 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5285#comment-4938 Hi Joe, thanks for your essay; there’s much food for thought. Can you tell me, where in your list would you place providing a venue or opportunity in which people are free, nay, encouraged to honestly express what is in their hearts? I suppose doing so would indicate a willingness to listen. Would you say that a willingness to listen is a first step?

Also, my wife frequently tells me when I try to speak when she is talking: “I want you to listen to my problem, not solve it for me!” I realized that the problem isn’t the problem, but how she feels about it is the problem, and her solution is to voice her feelings. Once she feels that her feelings have been expressed and acknowledged, the actual problem is oftentimes resolved very easily.

]]>