I had shared 12 things I learned after 32 years of marriage: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/08/18/married-for-32-years/

“oh, I have been wondering why ubf koreans only marriage with an us citizen, is what I have seen – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/if-not-for-ubf-i-would-not-be-married/#comment-14617

Would you share more of what you’ve seen? Your perspective would be helpful, whether you’ve seen good, bad or ugly. Thanks for sharing and welcome.

Forests, I believe you know this. Though this might not come across so well to those who are not of Korean descent, I believe that most of them who think and speak in such (perhaps somewhat culturally insensitive) ways are good-hearted, good-natured and well intentioned.

Such cultural insensitivies, I believe, are happening less and less often, though they obviously still happen, since ubf is a diverse community with all sorts of people with vastly different levels of adaptation.

I know I started getting pretty heavy indications that I was going to be arranged to a korean. I had one missionary ask at dinner with others “Would you marry foreigner? Korean is obedient.” Another missionary said “One day you will eat this everyday.” (in reference to a korean dish).

I should have written “All 8 leader families plus at least one unmarried leader…”

And when I say “something” I do NOT mean flattering and promoting the “excellent reconcilers” or “exemplary church model” people.

Maybe someone should re-think the idea of promoting Toledo ubf as the “model of church governance for ubf” as the GD did in an all-director email last year…

It is true… “mbf” marries people to ubf ideology and many of us have felt that “third partner” in our marriages, where there is a ubf person deeply involved in the couple’s business.

As a side note, looking back at my litany of questions in my comments above show me how much I’ve been healed since July 2013.

I still really believe that God wanted me and my husband to marry, but that we messed it up and didn’t get counseling early in the marriage, so it went too far and we hurt each other and our children too much. I felt like I didn’t know how to have a good marriage and that no one was helping us.

And I do too love God, more than I love you, so I continue to stand on the truth of God.

With respect and love,
Rebekah Martin

I know that I do this, probably far more than I realize, since I think I’m trying my best to be biblical. The only way this blind spot ever gets uncovered is if someone points it out to me, and I am willing to hear them say something that corrects me and exposes my blindness.

Shepherd THX1138 and shepherdess LUH1439 established house church #645 in Paris chapter. Stop. Unique grace of God established unique family. Stop. Couples look forward to spending gracious time sitting on opposite sides of meeting tables. Full stop.

For me it seems strange that even the same “spirit” was there at the two weddings.

And of course it is not pleasant to hear that two more “clone” house churches were made, not families.

When I married I even thought like this: “If I don’t like my wife after marriage, it’s OK because we can sleep in separate bedrooms at night and do our campus mission together when we wake up in the morning!” It is only the grace of God that after 33 years of marriage we have never slept in separate bedrooms.

http://www.ubf.org/node/1769
http://www.ubf.org/content/pierrine-angelo-noganas-new-house-church-paris-ubf

I remember how I watched “Animal Farm” (the 1999 version) with my wife shortly after leaving UBF and we both were so reminded of our UBF experience and so happy to be finally free from it. The similarities were not only in the supression and exploitation of the normal farm animals through the pigs who claimed to be like them but where always higher, but also in the clever propaganda, manipulation and twisting of words. Of course this allegory is a bit unflattering for our Korean directors because they would be the pigs and SL would be Napoleon. But then again, why are so many droupouts reminded of UBF when they see “Animal Farm”?

general director > continental director > national director > chapter director
mother Barry > all female members
members with Ph.D. > members without
loyal, uncritical members > “difficult” members
university students > “other” sheep
white > colored

And of course the infamous:

ends (more followers of UBF) > means (ethical and Biblical behavior)

a few decades’ worth of methods, principles, teachings of a tiny sect from postwar Korea

>

two millenia of understanding based on the Great Tradition of the one, holy, catholic, apostolic Church

If you don’t obey Confucian teachings of your ubf chapter director you will reap worse consequences than if don’t obey Jesus and your own conscience.

As long as there is no clear embrace of equality (like the Trinity), there will always be a subtle sense of oppression and control by the one who is more equal.

Perhaps, this might be the “pecking order” or “power ranking” with the 1st ALWAYS being more equal than the 2nd:

* Missionary > Native
* Shepherd > Sheep
* Fellowship Leader > Fellowship Member
* Chapter Director > Fellowship Leader (and everyone else)
* Older/Senior > Younger/Junior
* Senior Staff > Elders

Any other inequalities?

* There is no equality between shepherd and sheep, between chapter director and member. The “higher” is ALWAYS more equal, as per Animal Farm.

* Because there is no clear equality practiced in many/most UBF chapters started by missionaries (who come across as more equal than the rest), it invariably leads to a sense of unfairness, injustice, oppression, and exploitation by the leader, even if the leader meant well.

* Because the leader is “more equal than you,” then you feel pressured to do what the leader wants and expects you to do, including marrying a person introduced to you, even if you may never agree to this outside of a UBF environment.

* All of the above leads to the UBF non-leader feeling that they never had any freedom while in UBF, because they had to “keep spiritual order” and “just obey.”

This has be going on and ongoing for 50 years and counting. Only the Holy Spirit can change this vicious cycle of injustice and inequality, because some “top senior” UBF leaders want to continue to maintain this oppressive status quo where they will always be in control and come out on top above you and over you, acting as though they are the head of the church, when Christ is the head of the church.

If you have, please do provide an alternate angle or another explicit explanation to this confounding convoluted complexity called UBF.

So if your director REALLY said to you that he would give you back your tithes and offerings if you left UBF, then please remind him that he said so. Then ask him if he meant what he said, and if he is a man of his word.

So if the money I offered was in anyway “misused” or “wasted” or not used prayerfully by UBF, then I believe that God will call them to account, because they just misused and wasted God’s money not mine.

Financial reward is just one of God’s manifold countless blessings, perhaps among the least important ones, which sadly we humans often place too highly, especially in wealthier nations. Nonetheless the OT does promise financial blessings to those who please and obey God. Is “displeasing God” perhaps one reason why UBF’s tithes and offerings have been decreasing over the past decade or so?

I had and still have the same feeling. I was deceited by people who claim to be Christians. ubf is a corporation of swindlers in the issue of money. I also tithed all those years while in ubf. I wouldn’t regret if I felt that I gave my money to a church. But I regret. I would also like to have our money back.

In our chapter when a Korean missionaries family left the director used to say, “I have not taken an ass from them” (1Sm 12:3). But in our case I feel exactly that the director have taken several asses of mine.

When I read that Dr.Ben gave more than a million to ubf I want to ask, “Do you have a “godly sorrow” for that?” Do you know how your money was used? Was it used for the many abuses in ubf worldwide and for sending the abusive ubf missionaries?

I listened to several lectures of a Harvard lecturer on ethics. He asks a question whether people’s lives could be expressed in money. He gives some examples (e.g. an automobile company knows its cars have a deffect. The company may fix all the cars or just pay compensations to those who tragically die in the car crashes because of the defects. And the copmensations are much less. Economically it would be better to pay the compensations, but ethically it is absolutely necessary to fix all the cars and avoid people’s deaths). I read about ubf’s trying to sue Chris for 100000 euro. And I asked myself a question, “What sum of money should ubf pay to me personally so that I have a feeling close to “justice”?” I remembered Jesus’ words “For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again”. And I agree that ubf’s measure of 100000 euro is close to the measure that would create in me the feeling of justice. So if ubf is one day going to obey Jesus’ words “Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift” then they know where to find me :)

But, big bear, will you believe that ubf is going to do anything about reconciliation in this sense? James appeared on this site with beautiful quotes which hopefully have helped you and your family and your daughter, but when you spoke about some money help and when Brian said about a relief fund James dissappeared )) Nothing except some quotes – that’s all ubf is about :(

I’m not seriously considering seeking an annulment. It’s too late for that. Though, if the grounds for annulment include a marriage illegally entered into, our marriage would qualify. So, here’s another “If not for UBF…” statement: If not for UBF, I would not have blatantly broken US immigration laws by lying to the INS about our UBF marriage, as we were instructed to by UBF elders. Fines, jail time and deportation could have resulted. Fun times.

Getting back to my original “If not for UBF…” statement, most of us can trade sometimes humorous stories about the many things we didn’t know about the strangers that we married. Some in UBF probably wear these stories like a MBF badge of honor. But, unfortunately, I think the reality of getting married to people we hardly knew is a ticking time bomb that awaits any couple who married in UBF like I did. The bomb will explode. It may not totally destroy the marriage, but at the very least, a lingering bitterness of regret will always be there.

btw I don’t think that Stott spoke about such things as ubf has. He spoke about churches.

Yes you understand correctly.

It is so easy to understand.

Perhaps one day the women in ubf will speak up…I don’t want to be around when that happens. This entire website is only the tip of the iceburg.

Jesus’ words in Luke 16:19-31 are true. Even if some former member rose from the dead, the “good and loyal” ubf directors would not repent, for they insist that they are God’s anointed. So be it. I don’t want to be around when that “anointing” happens…

The intentions of ubf directors mean nothing. It is the impact they have had that says everything so clearly every casual observer of ubf people can see the abusive control and manipulation, all done with big smiles, flattering words, sob stories and good kimchee.

I heard about an experiment today. Some people persuaded total strangers to do the most ridiculous things, all because the manipulators were either angry or sad. Approach a young college student with a sad sob story and you can get them to do just about anything (like even giving you their credit card and bank information). I thought to myself: That is the ubf ideology in a nutshell.

I am truly sorry if your marriage is unhappy and unfulfiling to you–sexually, physically, emotionally and spiritually. Do you think that professional Christian counseling is in order for you and your spouse?

For sure, annulment can perhaps be justifiable as in the link you included. I am somewhat familiar with that situation, which I will not comment on, since it does involve people I know.

UBF’s “sin,” though well-intentioned (complicated by human ambition for spiritual greatness and fruitfulness in their own chapter/fellowship), is that some UBF leaders really think that they have the God given authority over the marriages of their sheep, including when they can date and with whom. Though it may have started out more prayerfully and gracefully (as in my marriage, I believe), yet I am personally praying that such a horrible practice–as reported by many–will be addressed and corrected by God’s help in God’s time.

Sorry, but it’s not that obvious. I can buy that God ordained and defined marriage. But does anyone believe that God “ordains” any and all marriages? A man ordained my marriage. That can sometimes be grounds for annulment.

It is a blind spot that has 50 years of loyalty and honor being UBF’s highest value in the hierarchy of values. Sadly, sometimes it seems that even Jesus and the Gospel is ranked BELOW loyalty and honor to UBF, as you likely know.

Here is his blog
http://drchungj.blogspot.ru/

one of the interesting posts which reveals some of the relationship between the father and the son
http://rsqubf.livejournal.com/123416.html

Are you saying that Joseph made his son obey SL by forcing him to have surgery? If so, where did you hear this story? Is there a link to this account?

Of course, no one can take responsibility for all the evils in the world, or in just one church, or even in one’s own family.

But yes, I want to be responsible to call out what I regard as un-Christ-like in UBF. My own personal struggle is that I may do so with fear and trembling and with humility and tears (which is like dying to me), rather than to do so with deadly self-righteousness and arrongance (which is SO EASY TO DO that I can do it in my sleep!).

I believe that many of my articles and comments on UBFriends are a direct calling out to some (not all) authoritarian and abusive UBF leaders to repent of such wounding and unacceptable behavior by one who claims to be a Christian leader in UBF. If I have failed to do this appropriately or adequately, then please call me to account.

I still do not understand what you mean by your last comment: “breaking down your own son to make him obey SL absolutely (even doing surgery).” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/if-not-for-ubf-i-would-not-be-married/#comment-8561 – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/if-not-for-ubf-i-would-not-be-married/#comment-8565

The teaching of God’s sovereignty in a cult brings the “cognitive dissonance” to me again. Your advice to love the spouse is good. But there should be also an advice to believe that the Sovereign God will judge and condemn and throw to hell all the cult leaders in his time. And as you have a position in ubf you must WARN the cult leaders according to the Bible. (I doubt they will listen for according to Confucius they have a high authority position on earth and believe they will have the same in “heaven”). But you personally would be “pure from the blood”. And if you don’t warn you will have to be responsible for all the consequences of ubf’s sins and abuses.

A good marriage (such as mine and others in UBF) resulting from a bad practice (MBF by the experience of those who comment) does not make the bad practice (of MBF) OK.

Conversely, a “bad” or suboptimal marriage (as expressed by some) should not deny the sovereignty and providence of God who ordained the marriage (albeit through a bad MBF experience).

I also didn’t know my wife before marriage–I remember on our honeymoon asking what her middle name was. We met only 3 times before our wedding day. Upon leaving UBF we wondered what was keeping us together? We concluded that behind everything, it was God who brought us together, and He would give us the resources to stay together. I hope that your love and faith are strengthened through this trial. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. (1 Jn 4:16)

As I and others have expressed, MBF has been used by some UBF leaders in totally reprehensible, unjustifiable, inexcusable, and clearly unbiblical and unChrist-like ways.

Despite this, God is sovereign, God, the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, knows all, including all things about you and your marriage.

Though you would not have married your spouse had you known the way UBF MBF is, yet God “allowed” it to happen.

If you are a Christian (though I do not know who you are), I pray that you love your spouse, as God has loved you through Jesus Christ.

God’s love is truly remarkable that it originates entirely from Him, and it has NOTHING to do with the recipient of His love. In God’s eyes of perfection and holiness, we are hideous, yet He loves us.

Pray that you remember His great love for you, and then love your spouse as you have been loved by God.

If and when God enables you to love your spouse, your spouse will become more and more lovely in your eyes.

I should have written, “…outside of a religious cult environment that was not hyper-controlling…”

There was a period of time in which I tried to rationalize my “decision” to “marry by faith,” in which I tried to convince myself that I had done a good thing. It is true that though you hardly know each other before the marriage, you do get to know each other. You are pretty much forced to, right? But knowing someone isn’t the same as being compatible.

Some level of love and affection may even result. And children. The children may serve as “justification” for such marriages for some time. But the 800 lb gorilla in the room is still there: I married someone I hardly knew. And worse, if I had known this person adequately prior to the marriage, in a religious cult environment that was not hyper-controlling, I would not have married this person.

Note, I’m not saying this person I married is a bad person (though I can’t say the same for this person’s mother). For all I know, my spouse is suffering through this marriage as much as I am, maybe more. We may continue this way for the rest of our lives.

Also note, even if we had very luckily turned out to be totally compatible and discovered that we had been “introduced” to our life-long soul mates, I still would not be able to ignore that 800 lb gorilla.

Thanks, Brian, for all of your contribution, and especially your friendship. I can’t speak for others, but I for certain will miss your comments and contribution. Let’s continue to keep in touch (outside of ubfriends!).

I’m glad he is so good and ubf is so good. If so, there shouldn’t be any problems then at all. M.Chung is the kind of person who would likely just ignore someone like me or big bear. We would just be “complainers” who don’t glorify God in his mind.

In any case, I am wrapping up my time here on ubfriends. I’ll post Davi’s new article and my part 3 of Spurgeon’s sermons this week, then I won’t be posting or reading here any longer (cheers and much clapping). I’ll continue my technical admin role, but won’t be publishing articles or commenting. I’ve said everything I wanted to say.

I have to leave ubf behind now. I’m glad ubfers are getting back to the bible. Hopefully they will read it this time. I have to get back to my family.

Personally, I am sorry about the way he wrote his report, framing it according to SL’s “spiritual legacies.” But after knowing him for over 30 years, I can confidently say that he is really the most gentle, gracious and loving man in Christ. He is not at all political nor controlling nor manipulative.

Yet, he has likely spent his entire Christian life of 50 years in UBF. So that is all he has experienced. And he reports the “goodness” and the “good side” of UBF, having not likely investigated the “bad side.”

Again, I am not defending him or “UBF spiritual legacies.” I am simply explaining why there are many wonderful men in UBF like him who have focused entirely on and devoted themselves entirely to the goodness of God through UBF. It’s almost like he does not know “good and evil,” but only the good and goodness of UBF–which are the work of the Holy Spirit (even) in UBF.

You asked “Do the leaders live before God or before the principles laid by a dead man?”

Clearly ubf directors are clinging to the principles of a dead man. With reports like that being written continually by ubf directors, the fantasy lives on– ready to enslave new young people.

UBF members may have the impression that ICC is stranger or more aberrant than UBF is, but I believe this is not the case. They are just a bit different und use different jargon, which UBFers may perceive as strange, but it is not weirder than UBF jargon and behavior. They use different words (e.g. they say “discipler” where a UBFer would say “shepherd”), they may emphasize different Bible passages or twist them a bit differently. They allow dating, with some control mechanisms, but less weird and controlling than in UBF. Instead of sharing the great life testimony, they have a baptism ceremony as the turning point when people become committed to the group. But if you abstract from the details and translate between the different jargons, you will see that both groups are very similar. Nearly every article that has been written about ICOC also applies to UBF.

“9. Elimination of Options

Another means of instilling acceptance of control is to eliminate options. The member will be left with one choice, which is really no choice. The ICC does this by telling the member what needs to be done and presenting “reasons” why all other options are not valid.

The member who has qualms will be made to suppress them. He or she may be told to “study it out” or “pray about that” should reservations be expressed. This tactic subtly introduces the assumption that the member is in error and needs to get right with God about the correctness of the directive. The leader will check whether the member has chosen to comply and may even bring others into the situation to persuade the member that it is the leader who is correct. Sometimes, the member will be told that he or she needs “to trust God on this” and that God will make it work out because the member’s heart will be in the right place by complying. The leader may also point out how the member has made some decision in the past that is deemed to have gone badly and that God could not bless that decision because the member was being “prideful and independent”. The member will be told, again, to “trust God on this.”

After doing this, the leader will tell the member that “the choice is up to you, though”. However, in reality, no choice is given.”

And this summer we are going to have rest as a family! No conferences! No preparations! My wife is going to see the sea for the first time in her life! (For me it will be the second time at sea). And my wife made friends with the pastor’s wife. She shared about our plans to go to the Crimea. If the pastor’s wife was a ubf director’s wife it is easy to predict the reaction. It was unthinkable for us in ubf to have rest for more than 2 days, not to mention going to Crimea. The director’s wife would absolutely control and never let us go, never! We would be cursed unto hell by her. Well the reaction of the pastor’s wife was, “Great! I am sure you will like the sea and the Crimea!”. No control, no attempt to control. Brothers, we are in a church now!