Comments on: Why Are Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and UBF Members So… http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/ for friends of University Bible Fellowship Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:34:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.3.1 By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5240 Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:36:33 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5240 James, I’m glad that you enjoyed that sermon. I’ve been thinking a lot lately about the meaning of faith, and I find the marriage analogy to be very helpful.

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By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5239 Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:22:03 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5239 Thank you Joe for the link of Greg Boyd. Strength test model (sledge hammer faith) is not stronger than biblical model of faith which is based on the covenant of wedding vow to Jesus. It is amazing that Jesus proposed us to marry on the cross, “Will you marry me?”. Because of this amazing love, we can surrender our lives to Him. Our relationship of love can grow based on this covenant. This helps us to make a commitment in the face of uncertainty.

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5238 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 23:34:22 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5238 Yes indeed I was. That is an awesome study, thanks for the link.

I love this part of the slide presentation: “Biblical faith is not striving for certainty: it’s the willingness to commit in the face of uncertainty.”

The word Robb Ryerse uses in Fundamorphosis is “certitude”. He, like me, sought certitude in all things faith or bible. It didn’t work out. And I shouldn’t be surprised because faith is being certain of what we do not see. I was seeking certitude I could see…

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5237 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 22:23:48 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5237 Brian, it sounds to me as though you were trying to have “sledge hammer faith”:

http://whchurch.org/sermons-media/sermon/sledge-hammer-faith

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5236 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:07:10 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5236 Chris and Joe, your thoughts start to explain why it should not be so surprising to people that my leaving ubf is similar to Rachel’s questioning evangelicalism.

The main issues have parallels: both systems leave almost no room for doubt (which often is just as valuable as faith), both systems abruptly stop the dialogue once it is clear that a person’s behavior can’t be conformed, and both shun people who start to wear their heart “on their sleeve”.

I find that I cannot pursue being a whole human being with faith alone. Pursing “faith alone” led me on a dark path where my inner life became a hallow, empty shell as I watched over 100 of my friends disappear from fellowship primarily because they wouldn’t conform to the ideology I held onto.

And my hallow shell was often not empty: it would easily become filled with the slosh of sinful thoughts. Then I would have to cleanse my mind with more bible study. My life was a constant re-cleansing that, in the end, ended up just simply empty. So empty in fact that I no longer wanted to live at one point.

Sometime around that time the Spirit suddenly indwelled me so that I am now so full of life, joy, hope, love and excitement! I am now pursuing being a whole human being: heart, mind and soul. I no longer seem to need to cleanse my mind because my heart is full and my soul is satisfied with the grace of God. My mind seem to just follow suit now and is cleansed by the Spirit. I feel renewed day by day now, instead of just trudging on in a half-awake state of existence. It’s like the difference between just surviving and thriving.

Not sure I’m articulating this well, but I feel like the center hole in the Venn diagram above ought to be love, joy, peace, hope, faith, courage, justice, holiness!

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5234 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:05:08 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5234 Some people are deeply troubled by the fact that, in the Old Testament, God apparently directed the Israelites to commit horrific acts of violence against other nations and sometimes against other Israelites. The church needs people who feel horror at those passages to raise questions about why those passages are in the Bible and what those passages say about the character of God. Those questions are very uncomfortable and difficult to answer. All too often the questions are brushed aside, and those who raise the questions are told to be quiet, because they threaten the community’s understanding of the inerrancy and authority of Scripture. But I’m grateful for people like Evans who are bothered by such things and are courageous enough to raise the questions.

Apparently, C.S. Lewis was also one of those people. Once he received a letter from someone asking about the genocide recorded in the book of Joshua. Lewis replied:

The ultimate question is whether the doctrine of the goodness of God or that of the inerrancy of Scripture is to prevail when they conflict. I think the doctrine of the goodness of God is the more certain of the two. Indeed only that doctrine renders this worship of Him obligatory or even permissible.

(from The Collected Letters of C.S. Lewis, vol. 3, p. 1436)

C.S. Lewis continued:

Some things which seem bad to us may be good. But we must not corrupt our consciences by trying to feel a thing as good when it seems totally evil.

What I’m trying to say is this. People who raise such questions are often rebuked for having deficient faith. But perhaps people who never think to raise such questions have a deficient heart.

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By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5233 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:23:28 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5233 Thanks for linking to that article by Rachel Evan. It reflects my own thoughts so very well. And actually, I had the same doubts even when I was in UBF. I remember several such opportunities, like when my chapter leader preached about passages where Moses killed 3000 people, or David killing 200 people, and this was presented as a glorious act of faith, instead of questioning how such passages are reconcilable with the NT and everything we know and feel as human beings. That was something I always found strange and repellent. These people didn’t seem to have any difficulties with such passages, they didn’t seem to bother them at all, while I was always struggling with them.

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5232 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:16:18 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5232 Maybe I should just become happy Buddhist :)

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5231 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:15:47 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5231 The interesting thing to me in your Venn diagram, Joe, is the empty hole in the middle. None of the words chosen fit all 3 religions. Not sure what that means, but it is unexpected (at least to me).

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5230 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:45:02 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5230 When I read Evans’ article yesterday, it really convicted me, because I was (and still am) one of those evangelicals who was not bothered by the things that bother Evans. It’s not because I wrestled with the issues, but because I was (and still am) a person who has emphasized head and hands over heart. I was tempted to write an article titled “The Scandal of My Evangelical Heart.” Perhaps someday I will. But not today.

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5229 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:38:30 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5229 Joe, your article strikes a chord with many people, including me. Why have some focused on orthodoxy as supreme, only to neglect orthopraxy and orthopathy?

I hope some of our readers would attempt to understand me beyond writing me off. Rachel Evan’s recent blog entry speaks to all of these things:

The Scandal of the Evangelical Heart

“But the questions that have weighed most heavily on me these past ten years have been questions not of the mind but of the heart, questions of conscience and empathy. It was not the so-called “scandal of the evangelical mind” that rocked my faith; it was the scandal of the evangelical heart.”

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5182 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:36:50 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5182 Ben, that’s a great story. I’d love to create a focus group of six-year olds to find out what they are observing about their parents.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5178 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:38:34 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5178 I think this is a truism: Whatever ANYONE thinks of themselves (or their church) may often be quite different from what others think.

That is why truly listening to others, especially a contrasting opinion, may be the best medicine. It is often far closer to the truth than our own opinion of ourselves or our church.

This is my “best” personal story to illustrate this: Once my son, while in kindergarten or 1st grade, was asked by his teacher to write down three things that his dad likes.

I thought my son would write something like this:

1) My dad likes Jesus.
2) My dad likes to study the Bible.
3) My dad likes to teach the Bible.

Instead, my son wrote:

1) My dad likes to eat peanuts.
2) My dad likes my mom.
3) My dad likes to watch football.

Go figure!!!

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5113 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 15:35:44 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5113 Interesting.

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5112 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 15:33:23 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5112 I posted the article. I wanted to include a list of the top Google search terms to see what people are searching for to find this blog. Unfortunately I discovered a major change in what people are searching for, compared to about a year ago. Most of the top search terms contain our names and other specific names of current and former UBF members. So what are people googling? They are searching for us. It doesn’t seem appropriate to publish those.

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5110 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 15:28:47 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5110 Your quote is thought-provoking. Especially the part about mission being the object not of grace and blessing, but of judgment.

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5109 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 15:06:31 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5109 Sure thing, in a bit. I did the same cloud generator for own blog… it was rather lopsided :)

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5108 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 15:04:40 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5108 Actually, you’re right; that only picked up a few articles. (Notice the largeness of the word “wizard”.)

Isn’t there a tool that we can use from wordpress?

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By: Sharon Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5107 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 15:02:51 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5107 I’m rereading a great book right now, Transforming Mission, by David Bosch. Here’s a quote which applies not just to missionaries to many of us.

“Missionaries, perhaps more than others, have tended to regard themselves as immune to the weaknesses and sins of “ordinary” Christians; it took a long time to discover that they were no different from the churches from which they have come, that in the words of Stephen Neill they “have on the whole been of feeble faith, not very wise, not very holy, not very patient. They have broken most of the commandments and fallen into every conceivable mistake” Indeed, in many parts of the world, including its traditional home base, the Christian mission appears to be the object not of God’s grace and blessing,but of God’s judgement…..when a disaster has occured, nothing is really wise, or even kind, save ruthless examination of the causes.”

These days I am remembering the sincere shame I felt as a teenager as studied I Western history. I’m glad to return to it after shutting it off for so many years.

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5106 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 15:02:05 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5106 Love it! It’s a beautiful thing.

Can you rotate it and post it as an article?

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5105 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:55:48 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5105 Check this out:

http://www.wordle.net/create

Here is our word cloud. I think this just picked up the first few articles. Not sure how deep this went, but it was free:

http://www.ubfriends.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/ubfriends-wordcloud.pdf

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5104 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:54:26 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5104 Interesting idea Joe. I saw such a thing for the bible before. I might be tough to do for the entire website…I’ll check into it.

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5103 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:51:51 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5103 Brian, I believe that many people imagine that UBFriends is dedicated to criticizing and bashing UBF. If so, words like “authoritarian,” “cult,” and so on would appear very frequently.

Someone has produced clouds for all 66 books of the Bible to show the words that appear most frequently:
http://www.66clouds.com/index.html

Could you produce a word cloud for UBFriends?

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5102 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:50:47 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5102 I would simply LOVE to hear honest feedback! I only get pity or flattery from most UBF people. That is why I appreciate my few friends in Toledo who have told me honestly how they view me. They used to be just acquaintances, but now they’ve become dear friends. And they know I’ll share my honest thoughts with them as well :)

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5101 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:47:19 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5101 That’s not surprising Ben. Many Christians in the past several decades have been taught that science, academics, etc. is evil. Instead of thinking through the magnificent truths of God, they are instructed by powerful men to pick a theological system and just obey it. In one sense, we certainly don’t have to re-invent Christianity. But in a real way, we Christians must take note of how people view us and how we’ve acted in un-Christ-like ways.

I also read an article, a pew survey I think. Guess who was most knowledgeable about the bible and all world religions? Atheists. And Jews knew more than Christians. If I was frustrated by UBF’s rejection of Christianity, I am even more frustrated by Christianity’s rejection of humanity.

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5100 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:43:29 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5100 And, of course, these adjectives that you and I are coming up with now are based on our own mental images of other people, on what we predict that they will say. (In some cases, they have said these things.) I wonder how accurate and comprehensive our predictions would be.

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5099 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:40:51 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5099 “holy spirit” :)

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5098 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:40:34 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5098 Well, the search terms for ubfriends is telling. For quite a while the number one search term to find ubfriends was…

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5097 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:39:06 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5097 And because I support gay rights, I’d expect “gay” to be added as well. One person did send me a seriously worded email suspecting I’m gay and how sorry they were for me. I’m finding that such labels, while harmful and divisive, are actually grand opportunities to understand the gospel of Jesus more deeply.

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5096 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:34:05 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5096 Oh yea… I forgot because because I’ve been handed over to Satan, so I can no longer think very well. I only listen to Satan’s voice now… =0

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5095 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:31:01 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5095 you forgot “bad influence”

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5094 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:26:54 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5094 Interesting article, Joe. It is clear to me that the 3 religions have become culturalized to the point where I doubt Mohamed, Abraham or Jesus would recognize them.

I would have guessed the word for UBF to be “sad”. That is how almost all UBF people come across to me, full of sorrow and pity and on a good day, flattery. But maybe that is also because that is how I felt most of my 20+ years there.

Another interesting experiment: In a browser, type the word ubf and then pause to see what comes up. That is enlightening to see what people around the world have been searching for in regard to ubf.

I love the idea of focus groups! Yes it would be helpful to see what adjectives come up about us here… I’m sure mine would be “bitter, hateful, unrepentant, hell-bound…” :)

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5093 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:22:16 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5093 Here’s an interesting thought experiment. Go to a UBF event (for example, next month’s staff conference) and hold a focus group. Ask people “What adjectives come to mind when you think about people who write articles and comments on UBFriends?”

My predictions: Witty, handsome, thoughtful, intelligent, …

(just kidding, of course)

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/why-are-christians-jews-muslims-buddhists-and-ubf-members-so/#comment-5091 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:06:39 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5409#comment-5091 Very sobering, Joe. When I tried to guess the adjective for UBF, I would not have come up with Korean. It’s probably because my four kids would not say that about their parents. Before your drum roll, the word I thought of about UBF was defensive.

I read an article about the opinion of academic intellectuals regarding Christians, Jews and Muslims. Though their opinion of Jews and Muslims were not good, it was the worst toward Christians.

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