“God the Father prunes us who are in Jesus [v2] by His words [3] through the power of the Holy Spirit.”

Although I learned the passage in the similar way in Korea UBF [we should prude ourselves], but my bible teacher prayed that I might be pruned by the power of the Holy Spirit through the word of God and prayers. My experience with that passage was beautiful.

Maybe, because of my biased experience, I felt a little bad about the comments that some people had to mentally/spiritually suffer due to inaccurate interpretation and inappropriate applications of John 15.

I thank God for you who meditate on the Scripture day and night and speak the truth with confidence.

“Perhaps you are objecting to the way that some people will use passages of scripture to exert pressure on others to make decisions that God may not be calling them to make.”

>> It seems more often than not, some UBF leaders, tend to tell people what God’s calling is for them. Here’s what frustrates me! Some leaders seem so sure of what God wants you to do, regardless of how God is actually leading you. If you were to disagree then they pull out the ‘deny yourself’ card and put it on the table.

It seems to me that you are not objecting to the idea of pruning yourself. Bibleman doesn’t object to that either. Sometimes it’s necessary.

Perhaps you are objecting to the way that some people will use passages of scripture to exert pressure on others to make decisions that God may not be calling them to make. They try to use John 15:2 to prune others in inappropriate ways. Bibleman doesn’t like that.

Here’s a quote from a message on John 15:1-8:
(Source: http://ministrydepot.com/sermons/2009/04/sermon-for-john-15-1-8-easter-5-b-loaded-with-fruit/)

“He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Near the word, ‘he,’ write in the word, ‘God.’ God is the owner and gardener of the vineyard.
The Pharisees were people who did not have a vital connection with Jesus Christ nor with God. Both John the Baptist and Jesus warned their listeners about the Pharisees and Sadducees who did not produce the good fruit of the kingdom and their dead lives would be pruned and they would be thrown into the unquenchable fire.
We think of tomato plants that grow up and are very full of green leaves but have no tomatoes on them. What a disappointment. We grow tomato plants to raise tomatoes, not simply to have green bushes. Some people like the Pharisees produce lives that are like tomato plants, all show and green. They tithe, read their Bibles and show up in church, but they don’t produce any attitudes and actions of love towards God and the neighbor.” Although I do agree that there are things in our lives which do not produce fruit and need to be ‘cut off’, I do not agree how UBF Bible study are often conducted.

Well, if that is so, why then do they require people to make Bible study with a Bible teacher and a questionnaire and listen to Sunday sermons and read the daily bread booklet. Aren’t all of these “other sources”, too? And aren’t these much, much stronger and manipulative than any Bible commentary since they envolve human relationships, and are repeated week for week, year for year?

If the Bible would teach UBF doctrine all out of itself, wouldn’t it suffice to lock people into a room with just the Bible every week, instead of imposing 1:1s, group BSs, conferences, DB, SWS etc. on them?

Yes indeed, narrative theology is a valuable approach. I would like to say that seeing the bible as a redemptive narrative is the only way to study it, but I know there are other valid approaches.

And yes, ubf does often use the narrative approach to the bible. The fatal flaw, as I see it, is that in ubf I made the narrative about me. As I continue to reflect on the past 20+ years, I see that I wove myself into the narratives of the bible. When I studied Abraham, I was Abraham. When I studied Jacob, I was Jacob. When I studied Jesus, I was Jesus. I was constantly, week after week, weaving my life into the bible, attempting to imitate the bible characters.

This became problematic. Why? Because I am Brian Karcher (aka. heretic man) and NOT any of the bible characters. I see now that it is fine to learn from the bible, but to put myself into the bible like I was doing led me to live in a fantasy world that became disconnected from reality.

This was a major point of contention between Chris and I in the past :) Thankfully, Chris won this argument! Studying the bible as a narrative is good, but we must see Jesus’ narrative as we live our own, unique narrative together with the Body of Christ.

I am trying to weed out all pendulum type thinking- the “either/or” dichotomies that seem to plague Christianity these days. I think God and the bible and faith are not so binary. The best solution I’ve found is to consider the Trinity and constantly strive for more options.

So I think that avoiding heresy and arrogance is not so simple as getting application and truth right. I think we would need to also consider “reality”, as well as the Spirit’s guidance.

For example, let’s say there is a truth that “2 + 2 = 4”. It is clear that those are the facts. Let’s say the bible teaches such a fact. How do we apply such truth? Well, we would say that a believer must get the answer of “4” whenever adding 2 plus 2. For a lot of people, this is a fine application, and not a problem of conscience.

What if there is a person who has a broken “4” key? That person will never be able to get the same “truth” as everyone else.

This is possibly a lame example, but my point is that the human condition is multi-faceted and not binary. We humans are all broken in some way. We need to deal with our own sins on top of that brokenness. And furthermore we have to face God’s law that reveals our ugliness. And on top of that we seem to have an inherent selfishness. And even if we somehow resolve all of that, we must face God’s curse upon this world.

So to avoid arrogance and heresy, I say we need a magnificent gospel that addresses our entire human condition, not merely truth and the right application.

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts!

The problem is that some think that if you read Bible references, commentaries, the sermons of others, you are not really studying the Bible.

Then the contradiction is that it is OK to reference some UBF leader’s manuscript, but not the commentary or sermon of others.

Such attitudes may gradually be changing in some UBF chapters. But perhaps not in all UBF chapters.

But Hereticman has a question: If we are the branches of Jesus, and the Father is pruning Jesus, doesn’t that also mean the Father may, at times, prune us? Is it a valid inference here in John 15 that if we remain in Jesus, we should be ready to be cleansed/pruned by the Father? And furthermore, if it is the Father doing the pruning, what business does anyone have trying to clean or prune anyone else?

John 15

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