Comments on: Is UBF Scared of Grace? http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/ for friends of University Bible Fellowship Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:34:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.3.1 By: BrianK http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-15101 Fri, 05 Sep 2014 15:20:49 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-15101 Hi Ben,

I had my Grace blog locked down due to some spam/splogger issues. I forgot to open it back up, so I just did that now.

Anyone can register now:

registration link for Grace blog

Note: I will NOT allow ANY discussion on that blog relating to ubf whatsoever. If someone wants to discuss grace and related theology, that is fine.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-15100 Fri, 05 Sep 2014 15:09:58 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-15100 Brian, I was doing a search on grace and came across your website dedicated solely to grace: http://www.knet6.com/grace/2011/12/18/grace-93-verses/

I was trying to register, log in and post a comment but could not find the link to register.

I was going to comment and state that the word for grace (χάρις) is repeated 156 times in the NT: http://westloop-church.org/index.php/messages/new-testament/52-titus-messages/255-grace-the-key-that-unlocks-the-bible-titus-211-15

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11710 Mon, 16 Dec 2013 16:12:48 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11710 From a counter perspective, living by the grace of Jesus does not preclude the need for obedience. Because of grace, it might be too easy to accuse someone of legalism when they want to respond to grace by obeying God’s commands.

I think that this post addresses well that we Christians should not use legalism as an excuse for disobeying God’s word and God’s commands: http://thecripplegate.com/shooing-away-the-legalism-boogeymen/

]]> By: John Y http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11671 Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:12:04 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11671 It is not a sin to be #1.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11667 Fri, 06 Dec 2013 14:16:19 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11667 YohnY, I guess you and I (more I than you!) both commit virtually the exact same SIN of posting comments primarily on the posts that we ourselves write.

Merry Christmas.

]]> By: John Y http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11665 Fri, 06 Dec 2013 07:07:07 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11665 Gerardo R, where are you? Look at all these folks taunting you to come back to UBFriends to begin posting about returning to Momma Church.

By the way, in the future if you want to add gratuitous comments re: Protestantism vs. Catholicism, please show a little more consideration and do so not on this article but on this old article below:

http://www.ubfriends.org/2010/10/19/a-discussion-stuck-in-limbo/

Mary Christmas!

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11661 Wed, 04 Dec 2013 18:36:07 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11661 And me too. If the established churches would be lead by men like Pope Francis, young people would not be open targets for hyperactive campus recruiters. If I could have seen real Christainity lived out like Fr.Barron or Pope Francis, I likely would not have bought into the ubf 12 point heritage system like I did.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11660 Wed, 04 Dec 2013 18:33:09 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11660 Ben,

If those “entailments” do not become “entanglements” and as long as we are free to contextualize those entailments so that we do not rebuild the Old Covenant, then I agree fully.

We simply must get back to expressing the gospel as news and declaring what God has completed, and then living out that truth. Obedience will fall into its proper place when we do that.

I part ways with Christendom and go outside the gates when those “entailments” in human conduct become absolute, rigid walls.

]]> By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11659 Wed, 04 Dec 2013 16:12:22 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11659 So would I.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11658 Wed, 04 Dec 2013 15:50:33 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11658 * Grace first (Catholic) vs. Grace alone (Protestant).
* Infusion (Catholic) vs. Imputation (Protestant).
* The Catholic and Protestant perspectives of justification.
* The primacy of love vs. the primacy of grace.

Fr. Barron’s irenic responses to questions regarding praying to Mary and the saints, relics, and the papacy were the “best” explanations and responses I’ve ever heard that were not defensive but quite plausible. There were no questions or discussions about purgatory.

Fr. Barron’s 10 minute introduction sounded totally evangelical, which all Protestants would ascribe to and agree with. Then he made a funny comment, saying, “If I were to explain why I am a Catholic, it would take several semesters.”

After the conversation ended, I told Christy and my son Paul (who both also attended) that if when I had first become a Christian in 1980 and that if I had attended a parish where Fr. Barron was the presiding priest, I would likely still be a Catholic today.

]]> By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11657 Wed, 04 Dec 2013 15:38:42 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11657 I’m glad that you went. I wish I could have been there.

You mentioned “theological and practical differences” between Protestant and Catholic positions. What differences, if any, came out in the discussion?

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11656 Wed, 04 Dec 2013 15:33:07 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11656 Joe, I attended the dialogue between Armstrong and Fr. Barron yesterday, followed by a Q & A session. It was an excellent conversation that was thoroughly engaging and illuminating. The joy and love and respect expressed between a Protestant and a Catholic for each other–despite theological and practical differences–was most encouraging. They both truly expressed the unity of Jn 17:21-24, grounded and rooted in the love of God, in the centrality of Christ and in the gospel. It is unfortunate that the session was not recorded.

For sure, the only way for us Christians of all stripes to ever present a united loving front to the world would be to focus on the gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24).

]]> By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11655 Wed, 04 Dec 2013 15:12:26 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11655 In an article that just appeared today, Father Robert Barron (who spoke alongside John Armstrong yesterday at Moody) says essentially the same thing from a Catholic perspective. Barron writes:

“…if Catholicism leads with its doctrines, it will devolve into an intellectual debating society, and that if it leads with its moral teaching, it will appear fussy and puritanical. It should lead today as it led two thousand years ago, with the stunning news that Jesus Christ is the Lord, and the joy of that proclamation should be as evident now as it was then.”

The full article is at
http://www.realclearreligion.org/articles/2013/12/04/the_joy_of_evangelism.html

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11654 Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:53:50 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11654 http://thegospelcoalition.org/themelios/article/the_hole_in_the_gospel#_ftnref4 is an editorial by D.A. Carson that addresses sin and the gospel of God’s grace. Though a little long and elaborate, he explains what is and is not the gospel (In my opinion, point 3 is often misunderstood):

1. The gospel is, first and foremost, news—great news, momentous news. That is why it must be announced, proclaimed—that’s what one does with news. Silent proclamation of the gospel is an oxymoron. Godly and generous behavior may bear a kind of witness to the transformed life, but if those who observe such a life hear nothing of the substance of the gospel, it may evoke admiration but cannot call forth faith because in the Bible faith demands faith’s true object, which remains unknown where there is no proclamation of the news.

2. The gospel is, first and foremost, news about what God has done in Christ. It is not law, an ethical system, or a list of human obligations; it is not a code of conduct telling us what we must do: it is news about what God has done in Christ.

3. On the other hand, the gospel has both purposes and entailments in human conduct. The entailments must be preached. But if you preach the entailments as if they were the gospel itself, pretty soon you lose sight of the reality of the gospel—that it is the good news of what God has done, not a description of what we ought to do in consequence. Pretty soon the gospel descends to mere moralism. One cannot too forcefully insist on the distinction between the gospel and its entailments.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11184 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 13:29:23 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11184 @Mark: “EQUALITY…those brave enough to seek it…” Equality is almost an “unable to be discussed topic” in UBF. Two quotes come to mind:

“All animals are created equal but some are more equal than others.” George Orwell, Animal Farm.

“Too many (Christian leaders) behave as if they believed not in the priesthood of all believers but in the papacy of all pastors.” John Stott, Calling Christian Leaders. – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2010/11/04/why-do-we-have-divisions/#sthash.PLfGEWjz.dpuf

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11179 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 12:00:23 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11179 EQUALITY…those brave enough to seek it are the real world movers
(those afraid to try are hooked by hierarchy/’hooked’ in the back)

oh, come to the Lord, that ye may have real life!

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11171 Thu, 03 Oct 2013 14:17:08 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11171 @James, your repeated emphasis on Silence seems to me to be your effort or attempt to say indirectly to those who comment/write on UBFriends that we should be SILENT, as the evidence that we are maturing and going on to the Second Stage of Life according to Richard Rohr.

Are you saying to UBFriends that we should be silent?

Jesus is the perfect example of one who lived in the Second Stage of Life. But would anyone in history ever regard Jesus as being silent? If Jesus was silent (praying and depending on God without saying anything) he would not have been crucified and he would still be alive in the flesh today, don’t you think?

]]> By: gc http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11169 Wed, 02 Oct 2013 13:34:08 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11169 But once again James you ignore the points addressed and go of on your own self glorifying tangent. What rekindled the discussion on this article? It was a comment from Ben about the picture on the Westloop website – the lamb ready for slaughter. This gave way for a discussion on shepherd and sheep etc…You raised the commentary of silence which had nothing to do with what others were talking about.

We get your silence – but frankly add it to the article that Ben wrote some time ago. Otherwise talking about silence just reminds us that we should not speak ill of the abuses from seniors.

Silence to contemplate and broaden (or develop) our relationship with Jesus is indeed fundamental. But it has nothing to do with the dialogue here. Once again avoidance of the issues in UBF.

I am almost at the point where I can never take a word you say seriously anymore. You are publicly advocated everything that is wrong even if deep within you feel otherwise. Words sound well thought out and politically correct, but in the end I get the impression that the victimized in UBF can eat cake.

What is so wonderful on the other hand is that this blog is open to anyone who comes a knockin’. That includes parents of first year students or any student for that matter. Anyone with a head on their shoulders can examine that no serious issues get answered when you have been challenged to state clearly. You conveniently disappear everytime someone asks of you what seems too much.

]]> By: Sharon http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11167 Wed, 02 Oct 2013 13:12:57 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11167 James, I understood that this second half can start much earlier, too, especially when life events have created the need to go deeper. I don’t think that age is the significant factor as much as a willingness to give up first stage definitions and boundaries and embrace change. This comes when it comes. For some early, for some it is resisted to the end.

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11163 Wed, 02 Oct 2013 10:44:18 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11163 somehow status leads to less supportive downward monologue, while expecting underlings to still send more supportive upward dialogue; somethin not right about that..

]]> By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11162 Wed, 02 Oct 2013 10:12:25 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11162 Ben, thank you for your comment. I love this quote you quoted: Richard Rohr said, “In the second half of life, we do NOT HAVE STRONG and FINAL OPINIONS about everything, every event, or most people, as much as we allow things and people to delight us, sadden us, and truly influence us. We no longer need to change or adjust other people to be happy ourselves. – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11141

We all know “silence” here is not “just not talking” with our mouth shut. We need to talk, dialogue with love and respect continuously. This “silence” and “solitude” is Jesus’ life style. It has been tested and proven right way by the Benedictin monks for more than 1500 years. Bonhoeffer talked about it and many modern thinkers talked about it as the only solution of the unhealthy aspects of Christianity.

I understand “Silence” is a life of contemplation and listening to God and living constantly before the presence of God 24/7. It is a constant practice to try to gaze the beauty of Jesus. It is to trust in Him and accept his Sovereignty as the ruler of history. It is to accept our Father’s love which is much greater than our human ‘evil’ fathers. His way of rule is so powerful and unfathomable like a flowing river that we cannot change the flow with our hands.

It was interesting to hear from Richard Rohr who said the second stage of life usually starts around mid fifties.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11156 Tue, 01 Oct 2013 16:19:55 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11156 gc,

Thanks for highlighting those articles. One reason I love Joe and Ben so much is because they understand the “silence issue”. I don’t always agree with Joe and Ben, but at least they are not silent.

One effective way to get people’s attention, especially the “natives”, is through songs and visualizations.

I’ve blogged about the silence issue numerous times. Sometimes I just want to shout say something!. So many times the past 3 years I only heard the sound of silence.

When leaders of an organization are silent about criticisms or concerns, such as what happened in Winnepeg ubf, the leaders allow their group to become cult-like. Accusations of being a cult then become obvious.

The end result is an endless cycle of chewing through people that is best expressed by the Sisyphus Syndrome.

]]> By: gc http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11154 Tue, 01 Oct 2013 15:24:57 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11154 I am adding these links here to highlight about the previous thoughts on silence. But I caveat this by saying context of theory and discourse must be maintained.

By Ben:
http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/05/18/silence-and-solitude-bonhoeffer/

By Joe:
http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/03/04/when-silence-speaks-volumes/

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11153 Tue, 01 Oct 2013 14:33:18 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11153 Sadly, some/many older UBF leaders are “silent” because Moses was silent when Aaron and Mirian complained about him. (There is really no biblical justification for using this story to justify one’s silence.)

As gc said, they are silent because they think they are like Jesus who did not say a word to defend himself before his crucifixion. (This is an even worse justification for silence, because Jesus was sinless and perfect, while no one else–not even the best Christian leader–can ever claim.)

Sadly, I think that the silence of some UBF leaders is culturally conditioned. They might quote Proverbs where if you remain silent you will be perceived as wise! They take the “high road” by remaining silent, believing that this communicates how noble and dignified they are, and how much they are “above” the pettiness of noisy complaining sinners.

Worst of all, silence communicates dishonesty, inauthenticity and an unwillingness to be transparent. Sadly, those who continue their inflexible stance on silence do not realize this.

]]> By: gc http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11149 Tue, 01 Oct 2013 14:09:36 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11149 What is so difficult to understand here is the persistent theme of silence from your comments. Joe wrote an article about silence some time ago. It is said again and again that we must be silent. Why? I mean – really, why? We are not Jesus who went silently before his accusors. Seriously, you are not Jesus.

So, you are not concerned with the ‘Why’ among people? It does not matter that some members who remained many decades and some for a few years just got up and walked?

Woe to the husband or wife who returns home to find everything the same, but something missing. What is missing? There spouse has gone missing and is only represented by a momento of sorts. (I am in no way promoting divorce, but rather using the analogy to contrast that the ‘why’ does matter.)

Silence is insisted, but what would you do if you carried out your usual routine of many years to one day discover that no one had said a word but just vanished? You call, you visit homes, you ask neighbours….but there is no sign anywhere. You just can’t understand…the cars and minivans are not even in the driveway – where could they be?

Maybe people should be silent – and then maybe their silent departure will have a blistering and thunderous sound.

Finally @ Joe, ‘What time is it?’ – Time to speak! It is time for a long and serious heart to heart between two believers.

‘What time isn’t it?’ – It is not time to maintain appearances and titles and lord over others.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11147 Tue, 01 Oct 2013 13:24:31 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11147 Based on those verses Joe, I sense that it is time to: die, uproot, kill, tear down, weep, mourn, scatter stones, embrace, search, keep, mend, speak, hate, war.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11146 Tue, 01 Oct 2013 13:14:23 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11146 @Brian, Leviticus 5:1 is an excellent verse for those who want to ignore matters they find distasteful or difficult: “If anyone sins because they do not speak up when they hear a public charge to testify regarding something they have seen or learned about, they will be held responsible.”

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11145 Tue, 01 Oct 2013 12:58:50 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11145 Joe,

Good questions:

“The question for ubf leaders: What time is it? The question for ex-members and those who are being marginalized: What time is it?”

I can answer for myself. The first word impressed on my soul from the Holy Spirit a while back was “Stop”. I was compelled to stop ubf activity and see what would happen. So for several years, it was time for me to stop. Stop and listen and find God.

Lately the new word impressed on my soul is “connect”. I am compelled to connect myself and my family with good, caring, loving people and connect with 2,000 years of Christain history, and connect with pastors and people around the world. Hence, my Skype talks announcement. Skype talks were already taking place before my announcement, and Lord willing, will continue.

In regard to speaking or being silent, the Lord has turned my “speak up voice” on and I don’t see it turning off any time soon. In ubf language, God gave me one word through Leviticus 5:1 “If anyone sins because they do not speak up when they hear a public charge to testify regarding something they have seen or learned about, they will be held responsible.”

It is time for me to speak up and speak up I will. I practiced James’ idea of silence and solitude for 24 years. Now I intend to practice speaking up for 24 years. I will speak up and speak out and will be against the ubf heritage until my dying breath.

Yes you heard that correctly. I am opposed to anyone who supports or propogates the ubf 12 point heritage system. I will fight against such a system the rest of my life. I will speak out and speak up for the gospel of Jesus and will oppose ubf as a vocal critic, as long as the Lord enables me to do so or until the Lord turns off my “speak up” switch.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11144 Tue, 01 Oct 2013 12:58:14 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11144 @Mark: “when the day comes for followers to be sincerely unsilent, leaders are suddenly silent.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11140

Perhaps some “silent leaders” think that the way Christ followers follow Jesus is through following them. So when the followers become “sincerly unsilent” it is primarily perceived as “ungrateful, unthankful, childish, rebellious, rude, immature.”

When such leaders give direction and make decisions for others, they are loud and clear. It is unfortunate that they become “silent” when heart to heart matters are to be discussed.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11141 Tue, 01 Oct 2013 12:31:29 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11141 @James, I love this quote you quoted: Richard Rohr said, “In the second half of life, we do NOT HAVE STRONG and FINAL OPINIONS about everything, every event, or most people, as much as we allow things and people to delight us, sadden us, and truly influence us. We no longer need to change or adjust other people to be happy ourselves. Ironically, we are more than ever before in a position to change people–but we do not need to–and that makes all the difference.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11136

James, I’m sure many if not all people will love this quote. But interestingly 5 people dislike your comment and only 1 liked it. Probably, you will say that you do not care whether or not people like or dislike your comment. Nonetheless, you might learn a lot of wonderful mysteries if you truly want to understand why more people disliked you comment than liked it.

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11140 Tue, 01 Oct 2013 12:25:32 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11140 people love to talk about the catholic church, even though they are not catholic; i grew up catholic (even went thru some preseminary programs considering priesthood), but i looked on for more bible/less ritual (hopefully less hierarchy)

certainly silent meditation is a bless-ed practice at times, anywhere;
yet unsilent advocacy is also a bless-ed practice at times, anywhere;

the question is brotherhood vs hierarchy & scripture meaning vs symbolism;
too often leaders of anything feel unsilent toward underlings who are expected to be silent; but when the day comes for followers to be sincerely unsilent, leaders are suddenly silent..

‘slipping back into dualistic judgments and divisive words.’ perhaps we should be more concerned about dualistic ACTIONS & divisive ACTIONS..
israel had trouble for idolatrous/corrupt actions, not mere ideas/words;
pharisees had trouble for self-righteous/unjust actions, not mere ideas..

we all make mistakes, but do we try to improve/reform?

or do we excuse those with status while condemning those without?
this is the core corruption of the world that must be faced/unimitated by believers

]]> By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11136 Tue, 01 Oct 2013 04:24:01 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11136 Ecclesiates 3:1-8

“There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens.
a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.”

The question for ubf leaders: What time is it?

The question for ex-members and those who are being marginalized: What time is it?

]]> By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11131 Tue, 01 Oct 2013 00:34:50 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11131 Brian, Mark, gc sorry for the confusion from the above quote of Richard Rohr which was quoted out of the context. We can understand his position and statement better when we think about his Catholic practice, “silence” and “solitude”. In the latter part of his book he is leading us to the importance of these practices of “silence” and “solitude”. These area of practice I believe we are weak in the Protestants in general.

He said, “Silence is the only language spacious enough to include everything and to keep us from slipping back into dualistic judgments and divisive words.”

]]> By: gc http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11116 Mon, 30 Sep 2013 13:40:06 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11116 This just smells like “…let them get their garbages out….then maybe they can reach the second stage of life.”

If an environment hinders people from seeking God and being united with God then there is something wrong. Stop humouring people with sincere but apathetic comments. I would really like to say that UBF is a good and healthy place to be but I cannot. The more that we undermine the ills of the organization and each other in carrying it forward the more people will leave.

Ubfriends can be a scapegoat for why people are leaving – but where are the lies. Most testimonials published and added here are done so after one has had time and experience.

Anyway, seniors make opinions about juniors – essentially it has been argued several times about letting native leaders lead 100%. What judgments and strong opinions are holding all of Korean leadership in stage one?

]]> By: Sharon http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11115 Mon, 30 Sep 2013 12:55:26 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11115 I think the key words in the Rohr quote here are ” not every” or “everything”, and ” some”. This means that there are some events, some people and some issues for which strong opinions are appropriate. If maturity means having no strong opinions and never speaking out clearly and even loudly, then how can we look at the apostles? Especially apostle Paul? The opinions expressed here are not usually based on human logic…if you listen closely, they are based on a love of the gospel, and a longing for reconciliation, real reconciliation.

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11114 Mon, 30 Sep 2013 12:07:26 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11114 james, haven’t gotten all the detail of this thread so i’m confused, shouldn’t goal be to get to stage 2 which is better? that may involve vocal logic to jumpstart ourselves/others out of mindless oblivion/helpless patterns; of course that means collective responsibility as well;

but hey i’ve had enough, peops want stay like they are or let others stay as they are, go ahead, just don’t cry later when normal life consequences don’t work out the way grp wants

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11113 Mon, 30 Sep 2013 08:19:04 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11113 James,

So spineless apathy is the second stage of life? I smell b——t.

Let’s get back to Ben’s article here. ubf is scared of grace. I’d ask your opinion but since you’re so advanced an in the second stage of life you have none.

I’d also ask your opinion about the latest numbers that show your ministry is in decline, numbers that back up every word Joe and Ben and hundreds of others have been saying and predicting, but I suppose you have no strong idea about this human knowledge which is just “poison” for our soul.

Over the past 4 years:

27% decline in cash donations (offering)
59% increase in administrative costs
105% drop in net assets
$42K deficit in 2012
17% drop in ISBC attendants *
50% exodus of longtime leaders in Toledo UBF

James, your ministry is in a downward spiral. Maybe you could at least care enough to share a quote about how to get out of such a death spiral? Dr. Henry Cloud has some good ideas about how to do just that. And his first suggestion is to “make a log”, writing down and documenting everything that is happening and sifting through the log to discern facts about why the decline is occurring.

]]> By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11112 Mon, 30 Sep 2013 01:44:43 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11112 Ben, thank you for recommending this book. It is very interesting one and gives me a new insight on myself and others. Regarding your question, I think many people in UBF (or some ex UBFers) are still in the first stage.

Richard Rohr said, “In the second half of life, we do NOT HAVE STRONG and FINAL OPINIONS about everything, every event, or most people, as much as we allow things and people to delight us, sadden us, and truly influence us. We no longer need to change or adjust other people to be happy ourselves. Ironically, we are more than ever before in a position to change people–but we do not need to–and that makes all the difference.”

It is interesting that he said if you are too confident and have strong opinions based on human logic or knowledge, you are not in the second stage. If you talk too much or too loud, you are not in the second stage. I tend to agree with him.

]]> By: Sharon http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11109 Sun, 29 Sep 2013 17:39:47 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11109 James, I am also reading the book, Falling Upward, at Ben’s recommendation. It’s been helpful. I was challenged by the quote you put up to remember that much of what we did in our many years was “style and sentiment instead of real substance”, and that it was “even necessary”. Much of what we discuss here is our realization that it was mere style and sentiment. But there is more to this discussion. I agree with Chris that we cannot collapse and hide our history as a ministry into this “probably necessary” category. There was much that requires our broken repentance and the hard work of reconciliation. I know that you know this and are working toward this as well and I’m thankful. I’m also glad that Chris is committed to keeping this point from being lost.

]]> By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11102 Sun, 29 Sep 2013 13:27:35 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11102 James, I still don’t understand your position. Is authoritarian behavior, hierachical thinking and obsessive use titles in the church an “essential” or a “non-essential” issue for you? I have already explained why in my understanding, it is an essential thin and needs to be addressed. Now what is your position?

I also don’t understand what this has to do with the container and two stages of life. How can using titles and authoritarianism be a container for the gospel? It can’t. As a container, authoritarianism is like an old wineskin. Why do you want to put new wine into an old wineskin? You know what’s the outcome of such foolishness is and we experienced it in practice.

Please, if you give us parables or good advices, always explain how concretely you want to have them understood or see them implemented. Otherwise they are just hollow phrases that are convenient to hear, but change nothing and do not even help to understand each other’s position.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11101 Sun, 29 Sep 2013 13:25:14 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11101 @James, regarding Richard Rohr’s “Falling Upward,” my sogam was that I was living in my first stage of life for decades! But only by God’s providential grace, God is helping me to fall. Falling feels like I am falling to my death! But to my delightful surprise I realize that I am falling upward into the arms of grace.

My question to you James is this: Do you think UBF as a whole is still functioning like an organization in the first stage of life?

I understand that the 1st stage of life is necessary. But it was never meant to be permanent.

For those of you who do not have time to read the book, Rohr’s 1 hour lecture is an excellent summary and synopsis of his book which I highly recommend to everyone:

]]> By: Vitaly http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11099 Sun, 29 Sep 2013 12:09:05 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11099 James, today I heard a story from a sister in my church. There is a Korean church in our city (not ubf, but as all natives left the ubf chapter, the ubf director made friends with the church). Here is the story. A sister in that Korean church borrowed a big sum of money from another sister. But later she simply refused to give the money back. The Korean pastor chose to do nothing about the situation. Some time later the “victim”-sister decided to leave the church and told about her decision to the pastor. What was the pastor’s reaction? He cursed the sister and told the church that she left God and lives with the devil now. Hearing such words from the Korean pastor other people also left the church because they saw this church is strange and unjust and cannot be a healthy Christian church.

What do you think about the Korean pastor and about the church? If it is the Korean culture (I saw in ubf very similar things) then can anyone consider such Korean churches (and corporations in case of ubf) Christian and healthy? (And I’ll submit an article about some part of ubf teaching and there will ask some more questions about the Korean culture and about whether a cultural Korean is able to practically put Christianity above the Confucianism).

]]> By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11098 Sun, 29 Sep 2013 11:14:54 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11098 Chris, thank you for your bible exposition of Phil 3 and Gal 3. Yes, I agree with you because this is bible truth. How about practical reality? When the gospel is preached to different culture or nations, they did not become cookie cutter nations. The outlook was quite different from each culture.

These days I read a book, “Falling upward” recommended by Ben. The author said there are two stages of life. The first one was to build a container and the second stage is to fill it the substance in the container. This is a quote from the book.

“Thus the first journey is always about externals, formulas, superficial emotions, flags and badges, correct rituals, Bible quotes, and special clothing, all of which largely substitute for actual spiritulality (Mt 23:12-32), yet they are all used and needed to create the container. Yes, it is largely style and sentiment instead of real substance, but even that is PROBABLY NECESSARY. Just don’t give your life for mere style and sentiment. Pope John XXIII’s motto might be heard here: “In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, and in all things charity.” That is second-half-of-life hard won wisdom.

In this global and multicultural age we have more serious challenges in regard to spiritual unity. Yes, we have to strive to fill the container with substance beginning from ourselves.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11093 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 17:57:06 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11093 Since UBF is not a business corporation run by a CEO, then if a top staff is paid $90K, then junior staff should not be paid $24 to $36K I don’t think! If junior staff is underpaid, it is simply “using them” to serve the benefit of the church, rather than giving them a living wage to support their spouse and children.

I have said for years that our salary structure needs to be re-examined and revised. But it is rejected because certain people want to have the decision to control (and hide) who gets how much. As long as this is so, it will continue to promote a clandestine culture which is damaging and honestly unChristian.

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11092 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 17:52:08 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11092 i think we stumbled upon the answer to the question: no they’re not afraid of grace, they’re afraid of financial divulgence

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11091 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 17:50:48 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11091 @Mark: “secrets like the kgb or cia always means we’ll never know” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11088

Controlling information reminds me of the B.I.T.E. model that Brian has spoken of in the past. Controlling information is also the way to be manipulated by leaders.

Worst of all, controlling information is not representative of our biblical trinitarian God who is transparent for all to see.

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11090 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 17:48:04 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11090 gee, 60k with lots of ministry write-offs/tax free benefits sounds like the american dream:) in my line of work it also takes many yrs experience, but that’s after master’s degree, & minus the perks/tax benefits; as usual i’m the biggest loser category:)

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11089 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 17:40:13 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11089 secret like the kgb or cia always means we’ll never know, if we knew we’d ‘rebel’, noone wants us to know..

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11088 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 17:34:04 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11088 I was told by a reliable source that one senior American in Chicago made $60K for several years, and perhaps was raised to $90K recently.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11086 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 17:30:48 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11086 @Mark, I am assuming that you and your family have been a tithing member of Chicago UBF. Thus, I think that you should be entitled to inquire about the financial health of your chapter, with regards to how the money is being used. (In fact all UBF chapters who tithe to HQ should also be given a detailed statement as to how our tithe is used.)

I personally have issues with how our UBF staff is being paid, especially with some younger staff being “underpaid” compared to older staff, which is supposedly “secret” as to how much they are being paid. In my opinion, such longstanding secrecy should become transparent for all UBF members to see, since it is our tithe that is being used to pay our UBF staff.

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11084 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 17:13:22 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11084 who cares what man wants to hear? more importantly what does God want us to hear? is overaccumulated money God’s intention? (at ubf or anywhere), or was it intended to do the work & help needy?

the way i see it, problems are golden opportunities: ubf can lead the way in use of resources/end up at head of class of churches, or hoard more than others/end up bringing up the rear..

that’s what we need, someone more scholarly than me to post a proper use of church funds article postulating how much is godly to spend/save/reserve/etc

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11083 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 17:01:53 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11083 @Brian, regarding these (sad, staggering) statistics, they have already been predicted some years ago. At that time, no one wanted to listen (perhaps because of the early “glory” years of UBF which older folks still remember, and because UBF still does have >13 million in assets, and because some long-timers are still in control and unwilling to relinquish it). Sadly, I feel that some still don’t want to hear this because it is “negative” and “discouraging.”

** A very very very simple thing to do is to post these public documents/figures on our official UBF websites and humbly ask for prayer for God’s mercy, wisdom and help to turn things around.

But then again this would be too shameful to expose, even though such financial data are publicly accessible by anyone.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11082 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 15:41:35 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11082 Ben, you are spot on about the smell.

Perhaps someone will wake up when they see the latest ECFA financial numbers reported by ubf?

Over the past 4 years:

27% decline in cash donations (offering)
59% increase in administrative costs
105% drop in net assets
$42K deficit in 2012
17% drop in ISBC attendants
50% exodus of longtime leaders in Toledo UBF

I posted an article on my blog about the state of decline in ubf ministry.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11081 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 14:40:38 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11081 Watching Joe’s posting of Francis Chan’s little red tractor for the first time, could not but make me think that some older UBF leaders are so deeply entrenched in their fixed, rigid and inflexible ways that they would never allow any person who is not like them to decide, live and serve by the power of the Holy Spirit. They might really think they know better than the Holy Spirit by using their position of seniority and authority to dictate and decide what can and cannot be done. http://vimeo.com/7152556#

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11076 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 14:16:16 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11076 @Joe: “In our sincere desire to urge holy living, we think we are smarter than the Holy Spirit.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11071

I am sorry to say that the smell of missionary superiority, imperialistic inclinations and elitist exclusivity might be the most offensive of all in all of UBF. It is most offensive not just because of ethnic and cultural and seniority pride. But it is offensive and very sad primarily because it blurs, obscures and even obliterates the glorious gospel of God’s grace (Ac 20:24).

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11075 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 14:13:03 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11075 READ MY LIPS: OVERHONOR IS HORRIFIC;
just as love of money is source of all evil; overhonor is source of all corruption

until human desire for greatness is restrained, spiritual fruit can not flourish

we are but ‘grasshoppers’ who must choose wisely what ‘master’ God Almighty is trying to offer us..

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11073 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 14:01:00 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11073 gee, could show the way/set example by abdicating title of ‘president’ & taking on ‘coordinator’; now why would anyone want to let go honor & go with God?
who in their right SPIRITUAL mind wouldn’t? hallelujah

servant must not be of God but man; when people serve God they feel great, when they serve man they feel humble; Jesus is Son of God but son of man

St Francis Assisi started Friars Minor=lesser brothers

change happens from top down, but only by those courageous/wise enough to reverse flow of man’s habits to God’s ways

]]> By: gc http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11072 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 14:00:29 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11072 Basically sounds like the same nonsense of a childish person: I brought the toy or game, therefore I make the rules and you abide by them. If you don’t agree then I am not your friend. The refusal to accept that certain behaviours have to be removed sounds like a Korean saying that UBF is theirs and, no, it will never change – we can all leave if we are not happy. Non Koreans have to change, but Koreans by default are exempt from change. So whose knocking for the master race anyway? Again, I ask sincerely, we are all Christians – right?

Chris has been even simpler – and I already thought he had been simple. We should adapt to the values and identity in the NT as Christians. This does not stop us from being proud of heritage, but it does establish our values upon Christ and not what may be around us.

]]> By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11071 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 13:57:34 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11071 Chris wrote:

I remember that Samuel Lee wanted UBFers to become people with a “smell of the Bible”. However, the obsessive use of honorific titles such as “Missionary”, “Shepherd”, “Pastor”, “Dr.”, “Mother” has a completely different smell, a smell of confucianism. – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11068

This reminds me of a great article by John Frye that I read yesterday. Frye wrote:

“The tendency of too many evangelical pastors is to pronounce endless moralisms and to offer a smorgasbord of holiness hints and rules. There is musty smell to this approach. The odor is the absence of the Spirit. We create a distasteful atmosphere driven by what we hear and what we see. Very few take the time to contemplate why this endless litany of “Bible-based” principles, guidelines, steps and how-to’s is not producing a holy church. These holiness helps pile up and begin to smell offensive. In our sincere desire to urge holy living, we think we are smarter than the Holy Spirit.”

The full article is here.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2013/09/27/pastors-the-spirit-and-discernment/

]]> By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11070 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 13:53:47 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11070 I wanted to write: “If you read the Bible, particularly the New Testament, you will notice a quite different smell.” My question was, why do Koreans in UBF never stumble about this discrepancy between church life as visible in the epistles of the New Testament and the UBF church life? Btw, this is not only about the use of titles, but also about other things like the value of the family. In the Bible you will find that women are recommended to stay at home and care for the house and the kids, while in UBF such women would be disdained as “family centered”. In the Bible you will find that the church cares for the poor, the sick, the widows, etc. while UBF only focuses on elite students in their best age. In the Bible you don’t find prayers for numbers. You don’t find “General Directors” and “National Directors”. So many discrepancies. My question is: How do Korean UBFers deal with their pretense to live by the Bible and smell after the Bible, when the smell of the Bible is so obviously different?

]]> By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11069 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 13:41:50 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11069 Maybe let me phrase my question differently. I remember that Samuel Lee wanted UBFers to become people with a “smell of the Bible”. However, the obsessive use of honorific titles such as “Missionary”, “Shepherd”, “Pastor”, “Dr.”, “Mother” has a completely different smell, a smell of confucianism. As I explained, if you read the Bible, particularly the New Testament. Why doesn’t UBF consciously abandon that Confucian smell and listen to Samuel Lee and adopt the smell of the Bible instead, i.e. a form of dealing with each other that is not based on honor and authority, but on friendship and brotherhood? I want to emphasize again: This is not about adopting American culture or adpating to it. It is much more fundamental, it is about adopting the culture of the New Testmanent, and it is about obeying the commandmends of Jesus in Mt 23 and John 13. This is not only about the Koreans who came to America to evangelize, but also about the Koreans who stay in Korea. They should respect and honor the people outside the church, and respect the culture, but inside the church they should show that they live by a different standard.

]]> By: joshua http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11068 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 13:37:46 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11068 “The important thing is that we do not lose sight in the essentials of the gospel, the good news of Jesus Christ.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#sthash.h06snbn8.dpuf

If that’s what important, then it should be a total non-issue for all of UBF to immediately abolish all titles, to dissolve all life-long, lording-over shepherding relationships, and publicly confront the decades of substantiated spiritual abuse and authoritative control exercised over its members. Or is this statement to “not lose sight of what’s important” a secret code for “don’t look at what we’ve swept under the rug”?

]]> By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11066 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 13:20:15 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11066 James, the Jews had an equally long history and strong culture and honor codex. Remember that the apostle Paul was deeply rooted in that history and culture. He wrote about himself in Phil 3: “I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.” But he was able to leave all that behind when he saw that it was a hindrance to the gospel. It was the same Paul who wrote in Gal 3: “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Peter and Paul and all the other apostles had been raised in the same culture, in which it was custom to call people with titles such as “rabbi” (very similar to the Koreans who use the title “sonsaengnim”). The Middle East has a “shame based culture” just like the Far East. You say Christianity came to Korea only 100 years ago, so they don’t have time to adapt their culture. But the epistels were also written only decades after Christianity came to these people. If it was possible for them to overcome their culture and put the gospel above the culture, why should it not be possible for Koreans? It is always the same lame excuse, “we Koreans are different, we cannot change”. I don’t buy it. Paul confronted Peter directly and rebuked him stricly in Gal 2 when he started to create cultural barriers. He did not accept Peter’s excuse “I’m a Jew, I cannot change so quickly.”

“Ben made a good point that missionaries in America should humbly learn the American culture more and adapt to them.”

It would be good if you could also draw consequences from your conviction. For isntance, why don’t you make a proposal in UBF to abolish the use of titles in the church? As the president, your proposal would have some weight. And nobody could tell you “you can leave if you don’t like titles” as they told my former friend in UBF. Btw, I notice and appretiate that you wrote “Ben” and not “Dr. Toh”.

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11064 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 13:10:05 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11064 look, leaders like to excuse themselves & accuse followers;
‘underdog’ has declared reverse flow until lesson is learned:
followers are excused & leaders are accused
only if lesson is learned, shall equality be obtained
H A L L E L U L A H !

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11063 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 12:59:48 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11063 @Chris, agreed; world expects underlings to ‘pay their dues’ in turn the way they had to (like frat hazing) but it is simple human corruption;
Jesus showed ‘LORDING IT’ IS LIE FROM PIT OF HELL; instead supposed to be siblings in Christ: H A L L E L U J A H !

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11062 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 12:38:48 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11062 semantics will never end, but real issue is human overhonor which is spiritual problem not cultural issue; believers must model equality not hierarchy

]]> By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11061 Sat, 28 Sep 2013 12:01:38 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11061 Chris, you are talking about two different things here. I would say the Korean/ Chinese culture has more than 4,000 years history. Christianity came to Korea a little more than 100 years ago. When Christianity comes to Korea, that does not transform the whole culture completely because it has very deep root and some things are not necessarily bad in that cultural context.

That’s why Christianity needs to be contextualized in each country. The important thing is that we do not lose sight in the essentials of the gospel, the good news of Jesus Christ.

Ben made a good point that missionaries in America should humbly learn the American culture more and adapt to them.

]]> By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11060 Fri, 27 Sep 2013 22:36:24 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11060 James, you said the way people address each other in America was a cultural shock for you. I always wanted to ask Koreans like you, what do you feel when you read Bible passages where the believers also address each other without honorary titles? E.g. Pauls is called “our dear brother Paul” (and not “Missionary Dr. Paul” or “Apostle Paul” or “Saint Paul”) in 2Peter 3. In all the epistles, Christians are addressed just with their first names, and sometimes as “brother” or “sister”, but never with a title. Several epistles ask to “greet each other with a kiss of love” or “greet one another with a holy kiss.” In Europe (particularly France, “la bise”) it is still common among friends, it shows that people are very close and love and respect each other. Can you imagine such an expression of friendship in the hierarchical, authoritarian setting of UBF? The early Christian churches were very different from UBF in this regard. I wonder why Koreans in UBF never noticed this, and why they never wondered about people in the Bible behaving and speaking so differently from them, even though they read the Bible all the time. Why did Koreans in UBF never consider to follow their example in dropping titles and hierarchies? Do they think they are holier than the people in the Bible? Or above Jesus’ commandments in Mt 23? And even if they use these titles in Korea, why do they force us to use them in Germany? When a fellow UBFer tried to discuss this with one of the top Korean leaders, he got the answer: “You can leave UBF if you don’t like our use of titles.” To me it seemed their customs were dearer to them than the Bible and dearer to them than even “their” sheep.

]]> By: joshua http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11052 Fri, 27 Sep 2013 16:33:47 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11052 Thanks for your input James. I think my response to you is best done by quoting my above comment:

“when people approach each other from different backgrounds and there is a lack of elasticity in accepting the others’ point of view. And of course, the larger responsibility must fall to the one who carries the mantle of leadership and exercises the majority of the power in the relationship.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11050

The problem is not that people have different backgrounds, it is a lack of reciprocity in accepting the others’ point of view. I can appreciate why leaders from Korea or other places like titles, but my appreciation for their viewpoint wasn’t reciprocated; I didn’t feel any appreciation from them as to why Canadian students don’t like titles, only accusations of “proud!” “rebellious!” “anti-authority!”. If there was a mutual understanding (“you like titles because of your culture, and I don’t because of my culture, and its all good”), that would be fine. But of course, that was rarely the case. There was one culture paradigm that always won. Guess which one it was?

]]> By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11051 Fri, 27 Sep 2013 15:53:15 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11051 gc wrote, “So, who has sacrificed more?”

It reminds me of an article on this very subject that appeared three years ago, which newcomers to the website might not have seen.

http://www.ubfriends.org/2010/10/14/shepherds-or-sheep-who-sacrifices-more/

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11050 Fri, 27 Sep 2013 15:42:52 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11050 @gc: “why can’t the Korean missionaries embrace and integrate even after forty years?” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11048

This is a question for the ages!!!

]]> By: gc http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11048 Fri, 27 Sep 2013 15:32:31 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11048 I am replying to you but really addressing the issue above. I don’t really think that people don’t get the complex language for relationships etc….Korean is not the only language to use different ways or even titles. It is not Korean culture that is really being objected to (by itself). The objection lies wherein Koreans go abroad to other countries and seek native converts to their cause (or faith). Consequence, in these foreign countries the nationals are forced to adapt within the uniformity of the social culture that has been predefined by – Koreans.

Ben, as you asked – why can’t the Korean missionaries embrace and integrate even after forty years? In reflection I find the funniest aspect of this whole excusing of the behaviour from Koreans comes directly from the origins of UBF. We always read the beautiful and romantic story of Sarah Barry who did not live like other Americans but chose to live and adapt among Koreans. It was this that moved them greatly because she was not like the rest of those Yankees or Megooks!

Btw, I have no problem with the titles – it is my daily life. It is also unavoidable because my in-laws and wife!

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11047 Fri, 27 Sep 2013 14:52:40 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11047 Thanks, James, for sharing this. I think it would be illuminating to many who hear you and other missionaries articulate this.

Honestly, it is really not simply the matter of addressing each person as “shepherd” or “missionary.” But it is PRIMARILY the attitude that the shepherd or missionary has “OVER” their sheep that has been the source of countless past problems, and sorry to say, ongoing problems as well.

Considering that our missionaries have been in their foreign nation for one, two, three and coming up to four decades, it is sad that many of them have not embraced the indigenous culture. As a result they cannot but impose their foreign culture upon their native sheep, and then judging and assessing them based on their own cultural expectations in the name of Christ and Christianity.

I seriously pray and hope that we may have such a dialogue in person face to face on many many many occasions. Otherwise, UBF will likely become not an international ministry which it claims to be. Instead, it would simply be an ethnically Korean church, which is what is already happening in many UBF chapters including Chicago.

By the way, there is nothing wrong with being a ethnically Korean church. I personally just don’t think it is being honest to call ourselves an international church, when we refuse to embrace the indigenous culture, which results in regarding the indigenous people as being inferior and even sub-human, even if this is not consciously intended.

]]> By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11046 Fri, 27 Sep 2013 14:22:56 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11046 Calling shepherd or sheep instead of calling a person’a name has deep root in the Asian culture. I am not defending the practice of calling shepherd and sheep, but I am trying to help you a little understanding from the different cultural perspective. The most cultural shock I had encountered in America when I first came to Chicago in the hospital setting. A young resident doctor called an old woman patient first name! I was really shocked. From the American perspective how natural and affectionate it would be! But at that time it was ignorant about American culture.

And it took for many many years for me to change my fixed idea to the American culture because in Asian culture it is extremely impolite, rude, immoral to call other person first name! The only exception was that it is OK to call first name to your very close friends from elementary school or high school. All other settings it is severely prohibited.

The following video clip shows each family members we call with certain title instead of first name. It is extremely complicated that nobody in the western culture can comprehend.

]]> By: gc http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11045 Fri, 27 Sep 2013 14:06:56 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11045 So Chris, are you saying the good and well meaning shepherds aren’t so altruistic? (sarcasm)

Actions are calculated ways to entrap anyone who is soft enough to respond to crocodile tears. You who strike me with the bamboo stick – back off! – When I do what God likes but what you don’t like what is the trouble? Oh yes, you have visions of me being your Abraham or Sarah of faith. You want to the same recognition as your shepherd who raised up so many faithful shepherds and missionaries. You want the website news bulletin to publish your name and great WORKS.

In reality I can appreciate the hurt feelings or emotions of such leaders who have been mediators of God’s grace when their student leaves or does not fully appreciate what they have done. But I will add that nothing should be expected in return for your efforts – you want to emulate Jesus? – go ahead! But remember that many people he served forgot about what he had done soon afterwards. Also, a couple even blamed him for it when they were caught with fear! I am not placing judgment upon those who left or were “unthankful”. Such students have already paid their dues through meddlesome phone conversations or even ones in person. Such students have also taken advice and either acted or not on it. Such students have permitted certain boundaries to be crossed that no one would have otherwise been allowed to cross. So, who has sacrificed more?

For the blessings that shepherds have poured out upon students becomes irrelevant when simplicity is not just placed upon Jesus’ forgiveness and the salvation for the lost – NO! I want (NEED) you to be a member! I NEED you to commit – so – I can report to HQ that I have raised up one person, no two people, no one hundred people!! I don’t want to be a face that no one knows…..(it really matters to Jesus….no it really just matters to me and the machine!)

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11043 Fri, 27 Sep 2013 12:25:19 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11043 ‘Samuel Lee taught very explicitly that if people obey him, they will receive blessings, otherwise curse. The shepherds give “orientation” or “direction” that needs to be followed, replacing the direction by the Holy Spirit. The shepherds also judge if somebody is spiritual or unspiritual. In UBF, you feel well if your shepherd is pleased with you, and you feel uneasy if your shepherd is not satisfied. Even the blessing of marriage is dispensed to you through a UBF shepherd. That way, UBF shepherds become “mediators” of God’s grace.’

sounds like Mosaic (Moses type) old testament system; believers must repent of old testament theology: it discredits Christ’s new covenant, it enslaves for human benefit, it wastes/damages lives..

]]> By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11042 Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:01:08 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11042 It should be mentioned here that the title “missionary” sounds similarly offensive and condescending to Americans, Germans or Russians who have much longer Christian traditions.

Another problem with the shepherd/sheep paradigm of UBF is that the shepherds act as “mediators” of Gods blessing. Samuel Lee taught very explicitly that if people obey him, they will receive blessings, otherwise curse. The shepherds give “orientation” or “direction” that needs to be followed, replacing the direction by the Holy Spirit. The shepherds also judge if somebody is spiritual or unspiritual. In UBF, you feel well if your shepherd is pleased with you, and you feel uneasy if your shepherd is not satisfied. Even the blessing of marriage is dispensed to you through a UBF shepherd. That way, UBF shepherds become “mediators” of God’s grace.

This is a problem that Martin Luther addressed in his teaching of the priesthood of all believers. It’s a serious issue, the whole book of Hebrews is devoted to it. 1 Tim 2:5 sums it up as well in the verse: “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men.”

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11038 Thu, 26 Sep 2013 20:43:37 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11038 For some reason, I love our UBFriends comments! because it can unpredictably take on a life of its own—perhaps just like the unpredictability of our own lives.

The unhealthy shepherd/sheep paradigm that is so prevalent in UBF certainly needs to be seriously seriously (re-)addressed. It has clearly resulted in the human shepherd functionally and practically taking on the role of God and the Holy Spirit (in far too many instances with far too many horrible consequences for many). This is clearly not biblical, as many have already expressed.

May God have mercy on us.

]]> By: joshua http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11037 Thu, 26 Sep 2013 19:58:42 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11037 Yes Chris, you’re right. Thanks for drawing our attention again back to that passage and reminding us how different our human religiosity is from the example and commands of Jesus.

I meant that the use of titles is not a significant moral or doctrinal issue. But perhaps one could argue that it represents a hidden attitude of phariseeism, pride, self-righteousness, and legalism, which is definitely not a minor issue. And of course, as you correctly pointed out, it is in direct disobedience to the command of our Lord.

]]> By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11036 Thu, 26 Sep 2013 18:18:26 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11036 Joshua, I agree with what you wrote, but I wouldn’t call it a “relatively minor issue”. The usage of spiritual titles is a serious and severe issue, so severe that it prompted Jesus to dedicate a whole chapter of the Bible, Mt 23, to it. It’s one long rant against all these things the Korean UBF leaders believe and practice so dearly. It’s not a minor issue.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11032 Thu, 26 Sep 2013 14:43:29 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11032 Good thoughts gc. I would like to expand on one thing you mentioned about apprentiship:

“Its the apprentice system for sure…”

There are some who use apprenticeship as a defense of the ubf shepherd/sheep worldview. I object.

Apprenticeship was highly used in the skilled trades industries, and still is, in things like the auto industry. Apprenticeship programs are very different from the ubf shepherd/sheep teachings.

For starters, apprenticeship programs have a speific goal, similar to mentoring programs, to help you become an expert and an equal peer. The program is for a specific amount of time and has clearly outlined qualifications, plans and goals. You know what you are getting into. There is no sudden “marriage by faith” requirements that pops up out of nowhere.

For example:

“Journeymen (and women) possess specialized skills that are always in demand. The road to becoming a skilled trades worker at Chrysler begins with the Chrysler-UAW Apprentice Program.

The Apprentice Program is an 8,000-hour program including over 700 hours of training at a local college or university and various on-the-job training assignments.

There are seven apprentice
training classifications:

Tool & Die Technician
Electrical Technician
Mechanical Technician – Machine Repair
Mechanical Technician – Millwright
Mechanical Technician – Pipefitter
Jitney Repair
Mechanic Diesel

To become a qualified applicant, an individual must submit proof that he or she has completed two semesters of high school or college algebra or geometry, or a combination of both, with a “C” average or better.

When additional training is being planned, current Chrysler employees will be notified by announcements posted in Chrysler facilities. Notices may also be posted at community agencies within a facility’s geographical area to attract qualified external candidates.

If an individual successfully completes the test and meets the required qualification, the candidate will be considered for placement based on their elected trade as openings occur.”

Source: Chrysler apprenticeships

]]> By: gc http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11030 Thu, 26 Sep 2013 14:23:01 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11030 To add to this point further I would comment that the stripping down of “church” appearances among UBF centers also leaves for confusion. Everywhere looks like a hybrid office with selective church symbols. Moreover, the usage of the word “church” sometimes feels like a bad word and we should instead use the word “center”.

Regarding shepherd and sheep. Hmmm….
Upon first glance UBF certainly has its weaknesses. Not all, but many attempt to make a universal impression or feeling about the social dynamics. Although you hear these words, a new comer cannot always see the bigger picture (depending on their backgrounds and motives). They might be “sheep” but they get spoiled with so much attention that for those who are less concerned with terminology and language it is not the first objection.

Its the apprentice system for sure – you learn from me and so on….
Your first step is wrong – unless I say so! Once you have been here for one year, you are now one year old in Jesus. Do I learn from you? No, you continue to learn from me.

We can laugh at Kungfu Panda and the like, but that’s exactly what is expected from us in the shepherd and sheep dynamic. No matter how great we are or become – we are never above our teacher. Moreover, we must demonstrate this courtesy with every unflinching effort. (…and do not bite your lip or breathe a sigh….I am watching and listening to your every move.)

]]> By: joshua http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11029 Thu, 26 Sep 2013 14:02:36 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11029 A few times, I raised objections to calling students “sheep” and requiring people to use titles “shepherd” or “missionary”. Typically, the response that I received represented a view that those who object to using titles don’t properly respect authority, and those who object to being called “sheep” are proud. This then often led to examples of how our culture chafes against authority, illustrated by how many students now call professors by their first name.

From such a response, I realized that there is a generational gap (and perhaps a cultural one as well) in the mindsets of some leaders. From their viewpoint, not making a stark distinction between “sheep” and “shepherd” or leader and follower was horribly proud and rebellious. It seemed implausible to them that students disliked titles because it introduces rigidity and formalism into a relationship that they want to be open, personal, and rich, or they disliked calling people “sheep” because it was depersonalizing and demeaning. And so, while students’ motives were pure and praise-worthy, it was perceived oppositely by leaders whose worldview was direction. The result was that both felt badly towards the other, relationships could never solidify, and inevitably the fellowship eventually dissolved.

I think this is a good example of how a relatively minor issue can bring a lot of trouble when people approach each other from different backgrounds and there is a lack of elasticity in accepting the others’ point of view. And of course, the larger responsibility must fall to the one who carries the mantle of leadership and exercises the majority of the power in the relationship.

]]> By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11028 Thu, 26 Sep 2013 13:48:05 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11028 Joe, you misunderstood me. Of course the Bible talks about human “shepherds”. The term is used synonymously to the term “elder” in the Bible. But it is not used to create a shepherd/sheep dichotomy or referring to 1:1 shepherd/sheep relationships in the church. When the Bible talks about “sheep”, then it makes clear that these sheep belong to God only. E.g. Jesus says in Jn 23 to Peter: “Feed my sheep”. And not “feed your sheep”. Similarly, Peter then says in 1 Pt 5: “Be shepherds of God’s flock”, not “your flock”. The relationship is always between God or Jesus as the shepherd and the sheep, not the (human) shepherd and the sheep. The whole shepherd/sheep paradigm of UBF is skewed and unbiblical. Sometimes they also use the terms Bible teacher/student in order to appear less offensive. But it is just as wrong as Mt 23:8 shows. The whole system that is based on human hierarchical teacher/student, shepherd/sheep, creditor/debtor relationships is not Biblical.

There is only one shepherd, only one teacher, only one head, and all believers are brothers and sister, they are His sheep, disciples and followers.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11027 Thu, 26 Sep 2013 13:12:33 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11027 Perhaps the bible does speak of human shepherds, but I’m with Chris: The bible does not teach the “shepherd/sheep” worldview that we all learned in the past in ubf.

A personal, lifelong, involuntary “shepherd” who has to approve our decisions and supervise our morality is simply not what the bible teaches in any sense.

Even the human shepherds mentioned in a few places in the bible have nothing to do with treating people like sheep. Such passages have everything to do with the human shepherd being transparent so people can see the Lord.

I’ve thrown out the “shepherd/sheep” paradigm and now see the “God/human” paradigm present plainly in the bible. There is one Lord, one Father over us all. Jesus is the one Shepherd that we return to as our overseer.

An excellent book to think further about these things is What We Believe And Why by George Koch. [Kindle version]

That book begins with the God/human viewpoint:

“There is a God. It’s not you.”

]]> By: Vitaly http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11026 Thu, 26 Sep 2013 02:12:42 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11026 I agree that the word “sheep” is good but to know the cultural and even the phsycological context is necessary.

When I worked as a teacher at a university I saw some students entered the room and were talking about ubf shepherds who called them “You are sheep”. The students laughed a lot. Was it a good fishing by ubf shepherds? The fishing looked stupid at best.

And it is ok if someone calls him/herself a sheep. But it is not so if someone else calls these same people (who are happy to call themselves “sheep”) “sheep”. The same is true with the word “shepherd” or “pastor”. If some people respect ans trust a man in Jesus then they themselves can choose him to be a pastor in their church. It is not good if someone just chooses himself and calls and makes himself “a shepherd” for others.

There is a joke in Russia. Two people are quarelling.
– You are crazy!
– It is you who are crazy!
– You are a fool!
– It is you who are a fool!
– And I think you don’t look even like a fool!
– What?! Don’t I even look like a fool?!

To call themselves and to call someone else “are two big differences” (as they say in Odessa).

]]> By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11025 Thu, 26 Sep 2013 00:15:57 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11025 Chris, I think you overstated your case in your first comment. I can think of several places in the Bible where “shepherd” is used for a human pastor. I do agree, though, that God is always the Chief Shepherd.

]]> By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11024 Wed, 25 Sep 2013 22:54:32 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11024 Chris, that’s a great point you just made. I don’t have any problem with the metaphor of sheep and shepherd. In the Old and New Testaments, those images appear in various ways. The problems come when a relationship between two persons is defined such that one person is always the sheep and the other person is always the shepherd. In a godly, loving relationship, each person is sometimes a leader and sometimes a follower. This is true even when there is a big difference in age, rank or human experience and qualification. Each member of the church is a bearer of Christ’s image and a vessel of the Holy Spirit and is capable of both leading and following when love is present.

]]> By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11023 Wed, 25 Sep 2013 20:39:49 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11023 The problems also start when the word “sheep” is only used for some of the people in the church, and not for all of them.

]]> By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11022 Wed, 25 Sep 2013 20:34:44 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11022 The word “sheep” is not bad, if used properly. The problems start when it is used in conjunction with the word “shepherd”, and at the same time shepherd is referring to a human shepherd. In the Bible, the words “sheep” or “flock” are only used when referring to Jesus or God as the shepherd or owner. I have no problems thinking of myself as a sheep of Jesus.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11021 Wed, 25 Sep 2013 17:25:54 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11021 Thanks, Vitaly, it seems that Europe and the Americas feel the same way about being called “sheep,” implying that they are dumb, stupid and helpless without someone else helping them.

This is surely true only with God who is our Chief Shepherd.

But if any human dares to claim that role of “shepherd” over another human, then the potential and likelihood for much abuse certainly exists, as many have already sadly experienced.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11020 Wed, 25 Sep 2013 17:20:40 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11020 I never realized this, but it does make a lot of sense. No one likes to feel like a dumb sheep who was taken advantage of by some authoritarian imperialistic shepherd.

]]> By: Vitaly http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11019 Wed, 25 Sep 2013 13:26:50 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11019 And in Russian ubf the sheep are always called “lambs” only. It sounds offensive, especially for university students. “That word suggests someone who is incapable of taking care of himself and needs to be taught, fed, managed and directed by someone else”. I would also add “young” to the meaning of the word in Russian. And “lamb” is a very old word in Russian and is not used in normal speech. You can come across this word only in the Bible when it speaks about Jesus.

Unfortunately, the word “sheep” (plural) in Russian have some connotative meaning of being stupid, not able to make own decisions, acting like a crowd. And “sheep” (singular, fem. gender) has a very offensive slang meaning of being very stupid, actually having no brain. “Hey, sheep!” is used if one wants to offend a girl/woman and it would then surely bring a quarrel or a fighting.

]]> By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11018 Wed, 25 Sep 2013 12:54:47 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11018 My understanding of that comment goes like this.

1. UBF has traditionally referred to newcomers as sheep. That word suggests someone who is incapable of taking care of himself and needs to be taught, fed, managed and directed by someone else. People from collectivist cultures might not mind being called sheep, but people from individualistic cultures may find it offensive.

2. The image of a sheep bound and awaiting slaughter is ok if the sheep is a representation of Jesus. But in an environment where “sheep” is a euphemism for a newcomer, the implications aren’t very nice.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-11017 Wed, 25 Sep 2013 11:20:42 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-11017 Do Americans not like the picture of a bound lamb awaiting slaughter? An anonymous comment on my blog said that it is a turn off and weird to Americans, though it is acceptable to foreign nationals. Do you agree?

Here is the full comment: http://westloop-church.blogspot.com/2013/09/incessant.html?showComment=1380091098987#c3392192559797081883

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-9412 Wed, 24 Jul 2013 23:24:17 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-9412 Nice commentary on the grace of God from Christianity Today (7/24/2013): http://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2013/july/holcomb-interview.html A sub-point is that religious people really do not like grace.

]]> By: gc http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-8392 Wed, 12 Jun 2013 03:21:38 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-8392 Yes, thank you very much Ben. It made me recall what I was thinking as I commented on article good, bad and ugly. In fact, I also remembered a brother who used to, maybe still does…preside on Sundays. He used to say that he was compelled to encourage laughter at times with a quip here or there because the congregation looked miserable and tired – they did not look fine. But always, our answer is fine. Especially, to those closest to us. When we are engaging in this kind of ministry covering up our real feelings comes natural because we are never encouraged to share. Such thinking is human, humanistic and thoughts should only be focused on what will please God. It’s funny, because when I went through hell a while ago, I hid from my parents and family the true details of church relations. I covered it up and essentially said “….but it’s okay, it’s fine.” I am dying to take off my anonymous mask, but for that I must first pray with my wife. It is fine for me to take this course of action, but I recognize that my actions not only impact me, but of course family….it’s just I want to say plainly.

]]> By: Sharon http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-8384 Tue, 11 Jun 2013 21:14:51 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-8384 Thanks Ben, I love it.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-8380 Tue, 11 Jun 2013 15:44:46 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-8380 I just listened to this excellent 40 min sermon on grace: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfy03PEVUhQ

It would appeal most and be understood most by Americans and westerners who appreciate rapid fire American colloquialism.

The gist is this: Most Christians, including perhaps many UBF Christians think and act as though the gospel is the gospel of sin management, and self effort, and good intentions, and acceptable behavior, and sinning less, and putting on a mask, and pleasing God, etc. The invariable result is always becoming tired, burdened, uncertain, disillusioned, pretentious, self-conscious, overly sensitive, defensive, guilty, etc.

Only the gospel of grace breaks this cycle. So-called “discipleship training” worsens it!

]]> By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/24/is-ubf-scared-of-grace/#comment-6635 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 07:25:19 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=5982#comment-6635 andrew, I remember how an ICOC member paraphrased this approach as “first they save you, then they enslave you”.

]]>