Speaking of George Koch, check out his shout out to ubfriends:

reviews of Koch’s book

I am making my way (slowly) through this book. It is profound. It exposes MANY holes, flaws, shortcomings, contradictiona and fallacies in my ubf-trained thinking. Should be REQUIRED READING for EVERY ubf person.

Been reading about reconciliation and forgiveness in a chapter of a book called “What We Believe and Why”

http://www.georgekoch.com/What_We_Believe_and_Why

Probably the most challenging and convicting chapter I’ve read from a book in a while. Given the theme of this discussion, I wanted to know what people thought of it who read the book. There are some challenging thoughts in that chapter about what reconciliation is and what it is not, and what forgiveness is and what it is not. Been mulling it over for two months now.

At the same time, read a quote by JI Packer in the book “Keep in Step with the Spirit”

“We need to realize that while God’s acceptance of each Christian believer is perfect from the start, our repentance always needs to be extended further as long as we are in the world. Repentance means turning from as much as you know of your sin to give as much as you know of yourself to as much as you know of your God, and as our knowledge grows at these points so our practice of repentance has to be enlarged.”(pg.87)

One thing I painfully appreciate about a forum like this is that the Lord uses it to enlarge my knowledge of the first point (knowledge of my sin so my repentance enlarges). One thing I appreciate about my fortunate (but perhaps rare) experience with the healthy spiritual mentorship I’ve received by particular UBF leaders/mentors over the last 15 years is that the Lord used it to enlarge my knowledge of the second point (knowledge of my self so that my repentance enlarges). My prayer is that both this online community forum and the UBF leadership that God is both using to minister positively to my life these days may be in a great place where it also consistently enlarges my knowledge on the third point (knowledge of God so that my repentance enlarges). The George Koch book above sort of did it for me this year. Not sure why I’m sharing this. Anyway, wanted to commend the book to my friends here.

Been also thinking about what Apostle Paul prayed in Philippians 1:9…came to the conclusion that I not only want my repentance to be enlarged, but my love to be enlarged as well with greater knowledge and depth of insight. I pray that both love and repentance enlarges communally and personally at ISBC as well as my regular community life and daily family life.

Hey all, pray for me that my repentance and love may abound and enlarge more and more in knowledge, and thank you everyone (both active UBFriends contributers and silent UBF leadership-readers) for contributing to the growth of knowledge for my edification. Everyone, I think we’re getting there. Thanks for the (S)HOT conversations. Radical repentance. Radical love. Enlarge both in my life, O Lord.

David Bychkov, I just wanted to say that you are a man after my own heart. I catch your heart behind all your comments and I deeply appreciate it.

Uh, someone tell me what I’m going to do now that google reader is officially inactive? any other Readers out there I can use? Help.

I want to repeat Joe’s recommendation, particularly in view of comments like “I used to think that UBF is me and my friends” that Ben got as answer on Facebook. Yes, I also used to think that way. My UBF would not tolerate leaders to order aboritons. Because it thought is is my UBF and that of my friends (I was so naive to believe they shared my ethical standard and vision) I challenged my chapter director about that and supported the reform movement. The result of this was that I found out that my director and most of my “friends” had a totally different idea what UBF was. They didn’t care about any of the wrongdoing that I though were incompatible with any Christian church or ministry and with the most basic ethic behavior. And all of those in the reform movement who seemed to share my views were oficially expelled from UBF under the leadership of Samuel Lee and Sarah Barry because they broke “spiritual order” and “spiritual heritage”. So UBF turned out not to be me and my friends, but the spiritual heritage and pride of some Korean honchos in Chicago and Seoul who are only interested in their own agenda. If you want to find out whether UBF is really what you think what it is, I challenge you to do the same as the reformers did, as Joe did, as so many in UBF did, who were then all in some way or the other pushed out.

The words “some of his actions were abusive” could be as well be said about everybody including myself. You should be clearer about this. Can you be more precise? Do you think any of the things listed at http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/29/telling-it-to-the-church/ were not abusive? Do you think the abuse was systematic and happened continually over decades?

You also didn’t clarify whether this abuse was sinful or not. I don’t know how to interpret “he didn’t do it with evil intention” in this regard. Do you think there are cult leaders who act out of “evil intention”? I think this is rarely the case. Most of them believe they’re doing the right thing, they just have a narcissist mind that makes them believe in the grandeur of their own person, ideas and organizations. Their failure is that they don’t care to whether their actions are hurtful or not in line with the Bible. I think this is the case for Samuel Lee. Though he claimed to be a man of the Bible, he had no real respect for the Bible. Otherwise how could he easily order divorces, and do so many things that directly contradict the Bible. Or how could he ignore baptism when even his favorite verse Mt 28:19 demands it? We could go on and on. The system he set up is one blatant disregard of everything Jesus said in Mt 23. A person who claimed to know the Bible better than anyone and claimed to have such an authority over anyone should be measured against this self-imposed standard, not against your lowered standard. Didn’t he sin against God and God’s flock, and the whole UBF together with him by not repreheding him and showing him his limits, but doing the contrary?

If you really want to do something to solve the situation and process the past, you must go ahead and speak much more clearly. Why do we always need to force you to admit a little bit of the obvious? And even if you feel forced to go one mile with us, why don’t you go two miles with us?

Mark’s caveat is needed in the ubf context: “as long as their ideas/behavior don’t grossly violate our conscience/God’s ways”

2 Corinthians 11:20 is more appropriate in the ubf context: “In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or pushes himself forward or slaps you in the face.”

You Korean missionaries have slapped us in the face for too long. We won’t put up with it any more.

It reminds me of Ephesians 5:21. “Submit to one another our of reverence for Christ”. I believe love and respect is the basic relationship for all believers regardless of our differences among us. It is also triangle relationship with Christ on top of triangle and each other at bottom triangle.

my part: i’ve been in & out of ubf a couple times since late 80’s (tried other churches inbetween); i’m in now (only God knows the future;

i personally am sorry whenever (especially early on) i pressured people wrongly, on the other hand i’ve been kind of a ‘failed shepherd’ anyway not having much ‘following/fruit’ to show for my years (which is probably a good thing now i guess);

so ‘accomplished’ members may not see me as ‘worthy’ of confessing (i took a long time to feel comfortable even trying to be a fellowship leader/help lead much, so i’m nobody in the hierarchy); anyway big or small (coerced or not in our deeds) we all need to confess

secondly i absolutely agree we all need to renounce even temporary ‘one way’ submission; i believe bible only teaches mutual basic respect/submission to function in the church/world, basic respect for govt/church leaders (as long as their ideas/behavior don’t grossly violate our conscience/God’s ways); in recent times i haven’t been very ‘good’ about having submitting relationships up or down (here again probably a good thing) but i happily renounce whenever i have;

here again, some may look at me as a nobody who has little to renounce, but small or big it’s the point that matters

all this is not to say that someone can’t offer (not impose for some benefit) spiritual support/encouragement (like a big brother or sister in Christ helping someone sincerely or godly coaching to avoid pitfalls of religion/world..)

“Joe, i think you are right, the best thing is simple/brave processing/sharing of bad & good; isn’t that part of a normal growth process anyway? we evaluate what seems good & what doesn’t, what works & what doesn’t. & it really doesn’t have to be an adversarial process (denouncing one another), it is an honest search for God’s right best ways.”

Mark, sometimes I did not understand some of your comments you made on this website when you used idioms. This one I clearly understand. Thanks. Some time we have to meet and talk.

I don’t want any more apology from ubf people. If I had a dollar for everything a ubf person apologized to me the past 2 years, I could retire!

In fact, I don’t want anything from ubf. I do however DEMAND two actions.

I DEMAND every ubf member to do the following, as I shared endless times in my open letter:

1. Confess the abuse. Admit it. Confess it publicly and privately. Talk about it. Open up. Discuss it.

2. Renounce the shepherd/sheep relationships. Do something to end the abuse at the heart. Stop requiring permanent submission to a human shepherd.

Those are my demands. I will keep making them the rest of my life. In fact, you can put those two demands on my tombstone.

As long as love and justice are suppressed by denial of reality and acceptance of lording-over authority, ubf has no right to claim to be a Christian ministry. And I for one do not want to stand before Jesus with denial and obedience. I will gladly fall before Jesus with giving my all for love and justice.

the townspeople were mortified, it was their main claim to fame in the area; they cleverly ‘tried’ to convince the mapmakers to stretch the result to qualify, detained them making their car not work, etc; in the end, they devised/got sermon inspiration for collective effort (at their only little church) to all work hard together carrying buckets of dirt to the top of the hill to make a landmark tall enough to measure it as a ‘mountain’; the sun turned to rain almost defeating their efforts in progress, but even the mapmakers joined the cause & it got just tall enough to enter the map as a Mountain..

cute story & not sure it’s exact bearing here, but i think it’s helpful to think how we can avoid breaking rules (but maybe bending them if man-made interpretation is unreasonable/extreme), collectively overcome challenges, & realize after all it really isn’t important if our famous Mountain is only a hill as long as we work together to take care of it/use it wisely for benefit of all..

actually if leaders don’t catch on yet, they probably will/must after enough followers catch the Spirit/seek God’s true fruit/expect better from all (ourselves included); the choice is really simple: change is coming, leaders can either end up shining by wallowing with us thru the mud of repentance/change first, or can hang onto false shimmer/lag behind/look like slackers in the end..

isn’t it exciting? it’s like in ‘fiddler on the roof’ when the winds of change were coming in russia & beyond (like it or not) & people had to adapt to new things but also had new opportunities; sometimes it is better to progressively change/lead the way rather than avoid/wait to be forced by circumstance

i am going to the conference this time for various reasons, but not to be particularly compliant or disruptive, rather to seek/hope Holy Spirit starts to work more in spite of ourselves: if He doesn’t, it may affect my decision about future conferences; if He does, there may be hope for collective redemption (keep the good & get rid of the bad elements of belief/practice)

by the way when i use lowercase it is for speed/expediency, only bothering to capitalize something like person name, reference to God etc

I agree with that. Public apology can be very meaningful, or it can be essentially meaningless, depending on the actions and culture of the community. If it is crafted behind closed doors by a few top leaders and then adopted by a split decision and is not symptomatic of a large shift in attitudes and practices, then better not to do it. I think an apology should be a sideshow, not the main act. The main act should be open acknowledgment of the problems and hurt that we have caused on an ongoing basis — in conference programming, in Sunday messages, in group Bible studies and in shared testimonies, even when fishing on campus — with people taking full responsibility for what they have done and resolving not to do it anymore.

In my opinion, the whole community needs to adopt a new narrative about itself, a narrative that includes the stories of abuse alongside all the stories about the supposedly great things that God has done through ubf.

Is there a humble willingness to publicly acknowledge that the pattern of abuses in UBF over many decades and in many countries is wrong and unbiblical?

But you give me a hard time believing that you don’t know the answer to my simple questions because they were easy to answer. They were not questions about knowledge, but about your opinion and willingness to face the obvious truth. When you say “we agree some points and we disagree with other points” then this shows that you do have an opinion and you know very well in which points we agree and in which not, and to find this out was the purpose of my questions, but you don’t want to say.

As I repeatedly explained, the one important starting point for me is whether the actions and teachings of Samuel Lee that were listed here were abusive and sinful or not. You know that it is obvious for me that this is the case. But I don’t know your opinion. You say we agree in some points and in some not. Is this a point where we agree or where we disagree? If you believe that only certain things were abusive and others not, ok, then list those points where you agree and where you don’t agree. We can talk about it. But so far I see an unwillingness from your side to even make a clear statement (“sogam”) concerning these matters. Therefore you also make it next to impossible for me to believe that creating a reconciliation committee has any value at this point.

Answering these questions is in my view a basic prerequisite for any further dialog. Therefore I will back out from this website until I see that something substantial has changed. This will also give others, hopefully current members, a chance to engage more, in case my participation was too much or in some ways deterrent for the sentient beings in UBF as David signified.

But one thing I can tell you that I respect your opinions and sincere efforts very much. Few years ago I never imagined that I could talk to you freely like this because I heard many negative things about you. (sorry) This is a great progress and I believe it will continue to progress if we dialogue with love and respect.

a young person should not be expected to know better than an older person (although they may:) a follower should not be expected to correct a leader (although they may:)

so no, i’m afraid we do not all share ‘equal’ responsibility; that perpetuates problems at the top rather than improvement/good example for those below;
on the other hand, i belong to noone but Christ anymore regardless where, so if He helps me seek better ways it may influence upward, yet it is tiring constantly advocating upstream:

yet God strengthens us to do so; however eventually it will be better to mutually influence sideways (no longer waste time trying to help unchanging above): were parishioners held accountable for priest abuse? no. were priests themselves & their overseeing bishops? yes. common sense

1. Reconciliation involves forgiveness or seeking forgiveness. If UBF is seeking “mutual” forgiveness, leading to reconciliation, then forget it. As has been made clear by others, seeking forgiveness should only flow in one direction in this reconciliation process. If this was an attempt to reconcile after a doctrinal split or division or something, “mutual forgiveness” might make more sense.

2. A third party in the reconciliation process needs to understand point #1 above. Unfortunately, a third party is assumed to have to be perfectly “neutral,” which works against their understanding and application of point #1. A third party in this process will have to be carefully chosen.

3. UBF must understand that its attempt at reconciliation is not to be for the sake of healing its former members/critics/victims. The last thing former members/critics/victims want is to hear UBF saying to them, “You poor people. You need to be healed.” No, UBF must understand that its attempt at reconciliation is to be for the sake of healing and correcting ITSELF. In other words, as part of the reconciliation process, changes in teachings and practices must be considered, proposed and carried out.

That was the late Jimmy Rhee giving another perspective on forgiveness, a perspective that I think is not inconsistent with Rick Warren’s.

David, I tried hard to understand what you want to say with this, but I can’t.

We can’t “guilt” anybody in UBF because we don’t claim to have any special spiritual authority, and those in UBF don’t think of us like that either. If anything that has been written here really makes them feel guilty (if they are reading here at all and not keeping themselves busy preparing the ISBC), then it can only be their own conscience that is speaking up. And that would be a good thing.

btw, David, you are not annoying. This is my question: Are you saying that “victims” in UBF who do not know that they are being in some way abused by some spiritually abusive UBF leaders should not be told the truth?

Whether knowingly or unkowingly, your words here display some classic manipluation techniques. As a ubfer, I didn’t even realize how manipulative I had become, due to my training. Maybe you don’t recognize these things. Here is a list of manipluation techniques from some healthy training I received at my workplace (How to recognize when you are being manipulated).

And yes, we all bear responsibility for being part of the problem. And that is precisely the difference between me (and other former members) and ubf directors. I took responsbility for my part in the problem, repented before God and before people, publicly confessed my sin, and have renounced and stopped all known controlling and abusive practices.

What have you done to take responsibility and make youself accountable? What has any chapter director done like this?

Here is the list I mentioned of manipluation techniques that identity thieves use. Sound familiar?

1. diffusion of responsibility: make sure the target person knows they are not solely resonsibile for what happens.

2. chance for ingratiation: make sure the target perso feels thankful and is indebted by gratitude

3. trust relationships: do something to earn some trust, but not too must trust, such as use insider terminology the person would feel familiar with

4. moral duty: implant the notion that the target person has a moral duty to uphold

5. guilt: make sure to tweak the guilt button of the target person

6. identification (befriending)
7. desire to be helpful
8. cooperation (resort to anger or forceful commands)

This is classic “do nothing” leadership:

The police: No need (to do anything), I tell you. All of us are Christians, no one will do anything because no one wants to play God. You are Christian (the abused maid), I am Christian (the police), he is Christian (the abuser). So if people outside see one Christian puts another Christian to jail, it will be a bad witness, no one would come to Christ anymore!

It seems to me that some senior leaders in UBF are so deathly full of fear to deal with such obvious spiritual abuse, because they fear the consequences: UBF will be shamed. No one will come to UBF. UBF might get sued.

This fear of consequences of doing the right thing will be the very death of UBF….unless someone, anyone, takes a clear stand.

So what does UBF do in the meantime? Command the abused to forgive the abuser!!!!

If anyone thinks this is unhelpful or unbiblical, note that Jesus used a similar strategy when he spoke to religious leaders(e.g., the parable of the Good Samaritan). And Nathan used that approach to speak truth to King David and lead him to repentance.

James, I urge you and other elders to read what Chris wrote and consider his words very carefully. Admonishing someone to forgive, especially when it comes from a person or organization with a history of abuse, is very unhelpful and will make matters worse. If you want forgiveness from someone, you should ask for it very specifically, making your best attempt to acknowledge the harm that you have caused, and realizing that what you are asking for would be a gift of grace, not something that you deserve or are entitled to.

But if you insist on speaking about forgiveness, let me tell you my experience with forgiveness in UBF.

The person who hurt me most in UBF was not my chapter director, but another missionary, who, while I was in a severe life crisis, suddenly kicked me out of UBF without giving an explanation. This happened after I just accepted my calling to be a UBF shepherd. So I felt like I had been rejected by God. After UBF had given me the meaning of my life in the form of being a UBF shepherd, they took it away from me in a moment. I cannot imagine any worse spiritual abuse. I sat alone in my apartment. Nobody in UBF cared. I got no apology from that missionary or any other missionary. No elder or chapter director visited me to hear whether my expulsion and condemnation was just or not. Only one shepherd visited me and made Bible study with me, but the only thing he had to say about this whole issue was that I had to forgive my offender. I disagreed and disagree until today. The Bible does not say “If a brother sins against you, then forgive him and that settles the matter.” The advice I got from that shepherd was not Biblical and only served to make matters worse. Today I’m feeling in the same situation again.

Many years later, after I had been back in UBF and then finally left UBF forever, that same missionary came to me and apologized for his authoritarian behavior. Meanwhile, after being a UBF missionary for over 20 years, he had also left UBF and clearly understood and articulated what was wrong in UBF. I knew that his apology was serious. So it was not only easy for me to forgive him, but it was a real joy. I did not even time to get over it, it was instantaneous. We became very good friends. Our families often met and made Bible study and prayed together and talked with each other, but not about the things he did to me, because that was all like blown away. It was a real reconciliation. I’m bearing no grudge against him in my heart any more. Don’t you think that if I can forgive this person, I can’t forgive any other person in UBF? Why are you continuing to hold a monolog about forgiveness like the shepherd who visited me after I had been expelled from UBF?

By quoting that material now, it seems that you are indirectly calling me bitter and unforgiving. Perhaps I am. If that’s what you think, please say so directly. I can handle it. I’m a big boy.

The Choice to Forgive

The decision to forgive an offender is probably the hardest choice we can ever make. Some crimes seem too horrible to forgive. Our instincts tell us to avenge the person who caused us pain, not to release him from the debt he owes us. But as Christians, we can’t afford to have unforgiving hearts, for we have been greatly forgiven by God in Christ (Ephesians 4:32).
Only forgiveness can release us from a life of hatred and bitterness. “Forgiving is a journey, sometimes a long one,” wrote Lewis B. Smedes in Shame and Grace. “We may need some time
before we get to the station of complete healing, but the nice thing is that we are being healed en route. When we genuinely forgive, we set a prisoner free and then discover the prisoner we set free was us.”

I am even guilty of participating (indirectly) in the coverup of the abortion incident in the mid 1980’s, because I failed to stand up and ask tough questions. I allowed our mutual friend JRhee to become the fall guy. I allowed other people to slander him and RebekahY in my presence without objecting. She was my sister’s first Bible teacher. I allowed people to denounce her unfairly. I never demanded that SL and other leaders answer the tough questions about what they had done. I was a coward. I didn’t know any better at the time. But now I do. I participated for many years in a community that did hurtful things in the name of Chrsitian discipleship. That was wrong.

James, this is not about blaming anyone. This is about bringing these issues into the light so that we can put aside the silly delusions of grandeur about ubf and see ourselves more plainly as others (especially ex-members) have seen and experienced us.

I’m glad that you agree that we have to come to the light of Jesus.

You said, “Let’s go through each of them concretely…”

When and where shall we do this? And who will be present?

These are the kind of discussions that (in my view) cannot happen just among a few senior leaders behind closed doors. That is not coming into the light. Senior leaders know some things, but they also lack eyes to see and ears to hear. They have grown accustomed and desensitized to abusive practices. They judgment of the whole church must be brought to bear in some fashion.

If this is going to happen, you have to make it a priority.

I agree with you. We have to come to the light of Jesus and see our problems in the light of Jesus. Also I think it is important to try to understand many problems from God’s point of view; how God sees all these problems.

SL doctored photos of conferences and world mission reports to make the crowd seem bigger than it was. I saw him do it. Those doctored photos appeared in ubf newsletters and calendars. Perhaps he thought he was doing it for a good purpose, for the glory of God, to give people vision, whatever. But it was dishonest and I don’t believe it glorified God. I wrote about it here:

http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/05/08/walking-in-the-light-of-absolute-honesty/

I think we should not take our guidelines so extreme that we become humorless.

You’re mentioning Gal 6:1, but the same Paul who wrote that verse also wrote Gal 2:11. He did not emphasize that he opposed Peter “gently”, but that he opposed him “to his face”. Of course usually a confrontation should start gently, but it is not always and forever appropriate to speak or stay gentle. You find many examples where prophets, apostles and even Jesus did not speak genly. It’s a fallacy of many Christians to believe that they must always and in all circumstances be gentle. Maybe Eli believed this too, when he “confronted” his sons (1Sam 2). The problem was that he spoke too gently with them. The sinfulness of their actions and the gentleness of his words were not in an adequate proportion.

By the way, I do not even think Joe wanted to confront anybody. He was just using a bit of humor. Humor is always the last resort if you feel helpless and despaired. And it also spices up discussions and makes them human.

The elephant in the room is that James refuses to answer some simple questions, not the tone of some commenters here. That’s why I react annoyed when people start to divert attention from that.

Faking conference photos and other photos in newsletters was done by Samuel Lee and he did it not only once. Even if those who are in charge of the conference right now don’t do it, it is still part of UBF history that has not been processed. Those who adressed this issue last time in 2001 were expelled for not following spiritual heritage. The UBF leadership has never officially admitted that this happened and that it was wrong. Those who are currently in charge with the conference can not claim they have nothing to do with it if they don’t make a clear statement about the past.

That’s why I think it’s important to start with concrete examples as those listed by Joe. Let’s go through each of them concretely and always ask the question: Was this wrong or was this right? And then we can go a step further and ask: If it was wrong, why? What basic principles and ethical or Biblical norms were violated? How do we need to adapt or change our teachings and practices based on this insight? That’s a constructive way to deal with the “heritage of spiritual abuse”.

http://www.acts17-11.com/light.html

It is really worthwile to stop and carefully read all the verses listed there.

Quote: “In the light, we experience forgiveness, love, healing, and fellowship.”

Forgiveness will come automatically when people start to live in the light.

1 Jn 1:5-10 “Here then is the message which we heard from him and now proclaim to you: GOD IS LIGHT and no shadow of darkness can exist in him. Consequently, if we were to say that we enjoyed fellowship with him and still went on living in darkness, we should be both telling and living a lie. But if we really are living in the light in which he eternally exists, then we have true fellowship with each other, and the blood which his son Jesus shed for us keeps us clean from all sin. If we refuse to admit that we are sinners, then we live in a world of illusion, and truth becomes a stranger to us. But if we freely admit that we have sinned, we find him reliable and just; he forgives our sins and makes us thoroughly clean from all that is evil. For if we say ‘we have not sinned,’ we are making him a liar and cut ourselves off from what he has to say to us.”

Therefore I say the one thing that is needed (as a first step) is not forgiveness, is not even repentance, but is to come into the light and admit and expose the ugly truth. Then all other steps, repentance, apology, forgiveness, reconciliation, healing etc. will naturally follow.

Therefore I also think creating a “reconciliation committee” wiould be putting the cart before the horse. Everybody knows that reconciliation needs first coming to the light and facing the truth. That’s why such commitees are usually called “truth and reconciliation commissions”, with truth coming first in the name. That’s also why I asked as a first step to admit the concrete abuse that started with the founder of UBF. A sign of coming into the light is that you start to call a spade a spade and not beat around the bush. That should be the first task of any committe dealing with the problems, and a sign of seriousness of anybody who wants reconciliation to happen.

As for what is happening in Canada I have heard that GTA is the most vibrant so I can conclude from experience that it will cover up losses. It cannot change the reality from your chapter, but I will repeat more boldly what I said a long time ago. After I joined your chapter in 2009 we had a national conference. One missionary from my home chapter turned and said to me, “Look, we are doing so well.” They had brought many students and their dance was so glorious. At that time I had a policy to not sing, not dance, not be part of activities because I just wanted Bible Study and Sunday worship service. (Maybe, I should write another article about 2007 – when I suddenly woke up.)

In all honesty, the only ones who know the dirty details are the top leaders in Canada. Maybe you received an email from out West – that’s because I shared part of your story and encouraged correspondance. I really believe the only healthy course of action is to embrace those who leave or who are thinking about it in true love for the person. I have never had interest to make someone stay, but if we are not sincere then what does that mean about our relationship.

If the foundations of relationships are the result of obedience to mission than how can they really be sincere? Once someone is affected and walks away true opinions are expressed.

You know, when I joined UBF, people were so thrilled. I was called, “the hope of Canada” and “a shepherd for Canada”. I was told fairly early on that leaders wanted to groom me for leadership of Canada UBF someday in the future. And now who am I? The disgrace of Canada? A blemish on Canada UBF? I didn’t change, except that I decided to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. God’s will for me and my family didn’t change. Why must we now be covered up and justified away?

How sad it is when agendas and ministry paradigms are placed ahead of people. How it breaks the heart of Christ, who died to save sinners.

I went thru the prison for 24 yeas. And “ditto” to all you just said bigbear. Maybe I should contribute to your new book.

By the way, not sure if everyone noticed, but I linked to the offical ubf director’s trainig presentation in my “minimum barrel” article. I used the exact picture from the ubf PowerPoint slide in my article. I was not making that up; ubf actually teaches this principle.

For me the principle was tied to the bible using the “To whom shall we go?” passages in John’s gospel. I was taught to let go of former members and just redefine “who is my neighbor” to be those still left in ubf. When I did this, I found that my “neighborhood” of people to love kept getting smaller and smaller as over 100 friends (including wives and chldren) left the ministry with varying levels of trauma over 24 years.

1) Inviting more and more non-US guests to make the total number higher, even thought the US guests declined or stayed the same. I wouldn’t be surpised if 3,000 people attend this latest ISBC because so many non-US people have been “invited” (i.e. required to attend).

2) Many shepherds in Chicago especially, inflated the numbers by paying the mininum registration fee (like $50) for people they invited, whether they came or not. They were willing to loss hundreds of dollars in order to keep their pre-conference registration numbers up. So we had a lot of fake names in the database, such as “Dummy Sheep”, etc. The final numbers did have these removed, however, the pre-conference numbers were articifially high in order to “encourage” more registration. Sort of like “See how many people registered?” in an effort to generate buzz.

If we continue to devalue the loss of our friends it cheapens the relationships and bonds that were once strong. It becomes meaningless to serve and call ourselves Christians. It redefines the ministry through survival of the fittest – yeah – the fittest to endure everlasting abuses and incorrect teachings…

* those who “ran away” did so because they don’t want to obey and sacrifice for mission.
* those in ubf didn’t pray enough, work hard enough, sacrifice enough, go fishing enough, obey enough, etc.

Interestingly, the reasons mentioned are rarely ever because of something internally wrong or unhealthy with UBF or with senior UBF leaders, because they are “exemplary” “faithful” “loyal” “committed” “sacrificial” etc. That is why it is so hard for the hierarchy to take responsibility.

So far some leaders only want to take credit for what God has done in UBF, but not take responsibility for the obvious decline in numbers.

Yes, Ben, I know. It’s like a taboo or a magic spell that must not be said to not break a ban. But then ban must be broken. That’s why I am so insistent in this point. (And just to repeat and clarify again, it’s not about calling the people derogatory names, but speaking about their deeds which did so much harm.) Somebody from the top leadership must make the beginning and speak out what everybody knows and silently admits anyway.

Still, the struggle continues to stabilize the ministry. Ben, you have already reinforced rationale very well earlir in this thread.

If top leaders are not willing to be publicly accountable and apply the necessary policy changes inside of UBF than the declining numbers should no longer be a cause for concern. The only answer to the declining numbers is to address the real errors of UBF leadership. For anyone to accuse a member who leaves for weak faith is covering up the issue and also blaming he/she who quit. UBF is bleeding and until abuses are clearly addressed it will continue to do so.

I get that older generation (Confucian or not) are stubborn, but really. It is so painfully obvious. The numbers are going to continue to decline. If UBF refuses to be accountable for a legacy of unbiblical behaviour than I don’t want to hear outcry for the decline in attendants. If top leadership really doesn’t care (and that’s the message their sending to people all around) then why should young people stay in UBF?

Young people are not obligated to stay and wait around in UBF. There are much better ways that God can use them to serve his work. Besides that they are not included in anything except for testimony performance and singing and dancing when necessary. They are not made to feel like part of the organic whole of UBF. In the broader sense what incentive do young people really have concerning the bottom line in UBF?

Personally, I will continue to press this unwillingness to seriously and transparently address problems, and especially the very very real and practical problem of ALWAYS deferring to the top, which thus maintains the stifling and suffocating status quo of the leader’s way or the highway.

But I don’t see any willingness to deal with these things among the chapters in my region. There is no tangible evidence that we will start to address the problems — the same old problems — that have hampered ministry growth regionally and have made it very difficult for me to collaborate with them. If that is not going to change anytime soon, then it just doen’t seem worthwhile for me to pursue this.

Myth 2: Forgiveness means you excuse the offender’s hurtful acts.

Myth 3: Before forgiving you must first understand why the offender hurt you.

Myth 5: Forgiving means that the offender will face no consequences.

This may be very hard for virtually all older UBF leaders to answer because under the pervasive 50 year influence of Confucius in UBF, you NEVER call your leader, or elder, or chapter director something negative or derogatory like sinful and abusive. Gosh, if you do, you make them equal to their sheep, or equal to those who comment on UBFriends!

The sin of pride is in everyone, myself included. That is beyond dispute.

But that’s not what we have been talking about.

We have been talking about regular, repeated overstepping of pastoral authority that controlled, manipulated, damaged the lives of many people under the guise of discipleship. It’s important to me that the leaders of your organization acknowledge that this has happened, and that they have participated in it. If not, then why start a reconciliation committee?

It would be also nice if you would answer my other questions, too, but this was the most important one. Please don’t always cherry-pick only the easiest-to-answer question and avoid answering all the other really important questions.

(paraphrase) “Outreach is not 5 white guys sitting around a table calling Latinos. Outreach is having Latinos, blacks, etc. sitting at the table making decisions to revolutionize the party.”

In the ubf context this would be: “Reconciliation is not 5 ubf men sitting around a table sending letters to former members. Reconciliation is having former members, women, etc. sitting at the table making decisions to revolutionize the organization.”

For me, the good/bad issue about ubf is most easily explained by the famous fly in the soup allegory. Suppose a waiter server you a good bowl of hot soup. As you are eating it, a dead fly surfaces in the soup. Would you continue eating it? No, you likely would complain to the waiter. Maybe your appetite is ruined and you leave the restaurant disgusted.

That’s how it is for me and the ubf system. I enjoyed the hot bowl of soup, only to find a dead fly tainting the whole thing. The 1990 event for me was my “fly in the soup”. I am now disgusted and repulsed by just the thought of ubf activity. Just thinking about sitting through 5 hours of testimony sharing again on Friday nights makes me taste my own vomit.

And worse yet, not only did I find a fly in my soup, I woke up to “Lord of the Flies”.

So this is not just a matter of forgiveness. This is a matter of justice. It is a matter of exposing the flies buried in the soup before young students eat the soup and get sick.

Perhaps we are seeing this from two angles. Now that you explain detaching sin from another person, especially one who has done harm, I see this can be a healthy coping mechanism. And that I agree with. I have had to detach sin from people in my mind in order to cope at times. Perhaps I can see this teaching in the bible.

I read this as more of a self-view, as in detaching my own sin from my own self. I see such a self-view as escapism. I don’t see the bible teaching us to detach sin from self, but to surrender to grace as as we are.

Nouwen mentioned 15 topics in his book. Prayers and forgiveness are part of “the only necessary thing”. I believe they are related to “knowing Jesus” personally.

I agree with your comment, “UBF is obsessed with mission”. Traditionally we defined mission in a narrow sense in UBF as you know. Gittins defined evangelization is everything Jesus did on earth. We should broaden our eyes to accept new paradigm.