Comments on: Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, Part Two http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/ for friends of University Bible Fellowship Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:34:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.3.1 By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9362 Tue, 23 Jul 2013 14:54:08 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9362 And another things to note, when a ubf person says “be well” their gauge of how “well” you are is one of two things normally:

1) How loyal are you to the ubf heritage?
2) If you reject the heritage, how critical are you?

So “healthy” in ubf typcially means you are loyal or you shut up. Therefore I am seen as extremely unhealthy. But I’m curious to know… has this attituded changed at all in 2013?

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9361 Tue, 23 Jul 2013 14:42:29 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9361 @bigbear:

“OUR family is still waiting an sincere apology from Ubf hQ…”

I’m sure you already know this, but such a thing won’t happen anytime soon. And what we really seek is not apology, but change and an end to the abuse, as you’ve pointed out. Personally, I heard many “I’m so sorry” type responses. But no sincere apology. So I decided to take Ben and Joe’s sincere apology and leave it at that.

“Last week I got to talk with my oldest daughter”

I am so happy to hear this. I’ve been praying for many months now that such a meeting would happen. I hope and pray for the healing river of grace and peace for all of your family.

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By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9356 Tue, 23 Jul 2013 13:14:19 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9356 i’m not one for the limelight; just wanted to comment that organizations must change for the better (they must ‘listen to God’)

too often groups become ‘blackhole’ taking much but giving little to anyone but their own ‘favored’, or ‘oneway’ street for selfish benefit (their way or the highway, as if they own what really belongs to God alone)

God hates favoritism for ‘big’ people; He loves helping ‘little’ people; organizations can either learn to follow God’s right ways, or eventually decay beyond repair/implode into nothingness

my prayer is that someday those with resources to spare/influence to share will use it helping others, without obligation, trusting God that those helped will someday somewhere help someone, passing on the blessing (a good ‘dominoe’ effect)

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By: big bear http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9350 Mon, 22 Jul 2013 17:03:29 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9350 JAMES…OUR family is still waiting an sincere apology from Ubf hQ…last week I got to talk with my oldest daughter…told her I was sorry for following the abusive teachings of Ubf….for neglecting family for mission….she understood and shared with me the suicidal thoughts she had growing up in Ubf….I told her I am fighting for change in Ubf and for love of families not cold works ministry…we both agreed the Bible study was good but the theology and antifamily message is abusive..no body in ubf helped us when family fell apart…the 30,000 in counseling fees, we ate at soup kitchens..all other churches bought us groceries…we saw that ubf thinks only of ubf and no love for families…yet to recieve any apology…I promised my daughter I will be a voice for change and families..never set foot in a ubf abuse manger again..warn her to stay clear of ubf…Ubf does not need a conference but a courthouse..the time is coming…the abuse is unreal….who out there wants to go on 60 minutes with me……….

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9345 Mon, 22 Jul 2013 16:13:54 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9345 Thanks, Ben. I know that whenever you say “I’m sorry“, you truly mean it!

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9340 Sun, 21 Jul 2013 02:17:58 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9340 When ubfers say “Be well” or “You need healing.”, I think of this quote:

“The church and its leaders lost the right to tell you how to heal when it inflicted the pain.”

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By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9327 Fri, 19 Jul 2013 20:18:47 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9327 @Joshua, that’s right. It was very similar ideas of brother Lawrence.
This is another quote from the book. “The reason we need to stop and be with God is so we might create a continual and easy familiarity with God’s presence at all times–while working, playing, cooking, taking out the garbage, driving, visiting friends, as well as during worship, prayer and Bible study.”

There is no dichotomy in God between sacred and secular. It even includes “taking out the garbage”! In our context, we need to do everything in the presence of God whether it is one to one bible study or working or taking out of the garbages.

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By: David Weed http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9326 Fri, 19 Jul 2013 19:27:49 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9326 Thanks, James. I really appreciate this invitation. Perhaps our families can get together for dinner some time as well.

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By: joshua http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9325 Fri, 19 Jul 2013 18:53:11 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9325 @James: My wife gave me a book called “Practicing the Presence of God” by brother Lawrence. I was blessed by it, because he emphasized that when he was compelled to pray by his abbot (as he was a monk I think), he prayed, but it was not any different than the constant practice of communing with God. I remember a funny anecdote in the book where he said something like “When I’m told to pray, I pray, but when I go back to scrubbing the pots, I’m praying just the same as before.” It was something to aspire to have such a practice of dwelling and living in God’s presence in love.

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By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9321 Fri, 19 Jul 2013 16:09:42 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9321 @Chris, thank you for your comment. You pointed out a very important thing about prayer. And I agree with you about UBF prayer topics which are many times work and performance oriented.

Alex Strauch said in his book, “Biblical eldership”, pastors can be easy target when things are not going well. So I think it is very important to pray for our leaders, chapter directors and so on. Because of this collective leadership is more biblical and healthy way.

In UBF, pastors and chapter directors usually give prayer topics and set the tone and direction of prayers of the congregation. If the pastors are work and performance oriented, they will give prayer topics in that direction. If they truly love God with all their hearts, mind and strength and are ready to listen and obey God’s will, they will set the tone of prayer topics based on their faith and spirituality and lead the congregation in that way.

When I think about Jesus’ life of prayer I am amazed. Even though Jesus is the son of God, he prayed several times a day alone in solitary place and sought God to do His will. I believe he prayed based on “The Lord’s prayer” a lot. Also I believe all of his healing and preaching ministry came from his intense love for God and love for people. He did not have his own set grandiose plan but he listened to God very carefully moment by moment and set the direction of his ministry (Mark 1:38)

Without this kind of prayer life, our prayer can be very habitual and worse yet we are not doing “God’s will”. We are praying for our own plan and will instead of following and obeying his will. That means we are asking God to come and help our plan whenever we are in need. This is tantamount to humiliating Jesus. We are putting a cart in front of a horse.

That’s why contemplative spirituality is so important for all of us beginning from leaders.

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By: Green http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9314 Fri, 19 Jul 2013 12:26:17 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9314 Time matters. It is God’s time to be heard by people like James.
In that sense, God used UBFriends to uncover the veil. Cheer up!

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9313 Fri, 19 Jul 2013 12:17:14 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9313 +1

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By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9312 Fri, 19 Jul 2013 08:14:45 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9312 James, I can imagine what you mean. But still, most people understand different things even when you use a simple phrases like “unceasing prayer”. I remember how in my first UBF years, there was one hour prayer in the early morning (I think 5am or so) every day. The prayer topics were known to all. The first two points were always “for Samuel Lee and Sarah Barry”, then for a number of campuses and sheep, then for our own sheep etc. So many man-years (or actually more woman-years) of prayer for Samuel Lee. For what? (Maybe he would have done even worse things if nobody had prayed for him?) “Unceasing prayer” could mean to continue to pray in the same way for the leadership without anything ever happening and nobody held accountable. If people really harden their hearts, even prayer and the Holy Spirit can achieve nothing. In UBF, “prayer” has a certain form and content. Even the word “prayer” is loaded language for a UBFer. So to say “pray more” can also mean “continue in the old ways” since we always prayed much in UBF anyway. Yes, I know you understand prayer more deeply now because you read that book. But I’m not sure whether everybody in UBF understands this. So a constructive measure would be to have lectures and seminars in the ISBC about “what is prayer, really?” and challenging the traditional UBF habits of “number prayer” and other not-so-good forms of prayer, instead of just asking people to “pray more”.

You say we should have a life style of Mary more than Martha. What do you think is expressed by the ISBC motto “serve the world together with God’s love”? The spirit of Mary or the spirit of Martha?

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By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9311 Fri, 19 Jul 2013 03:43:24 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9311 Hi, Chris. Your word is powerful like a drive-by bomb! What I learned from this book is that the antidote of the unhealthy spirituality is Contemplative Spirituality. It means we should live attentively in the presence of Jesus all the time. Unceasing prayer is another way. It is a life long process. It is a character building. It is a life style of Mary more than Martha. That’s what I meant “focus on Jesus”.

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By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9309 Fri, 19 Jul 2013 03:24:15 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9309 @David,I agree with you that sometimes leaders set the tone, direction and prayer topics and many just follow them. We elders in Chicago realized the problems and created the worship service committee and began to re-evaluate all the programs from music, prayer, announcements. It is just the beginning.

Personally I would like to invite you to one of the elders’ prayer meeting on some Tuesday evening after ISBC. We need many inputs and fresh and dynamic ideas from younger generation because this church belongs to all of us.

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9303 Thu, 18 Jul 2013 18:45:23 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9303 Chris, your comments are always welcome here; there’s enough room for everyone.

The point you make is an important one. In discussions that are contentious and emotionally charged, it’s crucial to pay attention to the words that we use and understand the implicit messages that they carry.

If I hear a ubf leader say “We need focus on Jesus,” I instinctively assume that he mean this: “You guys have no business talking about problems in UBF or making changes in UBF. Those issues are not your concern. They are above your pay grade. Leave that to the top leaders. Get back to your own business, which is Bible study and testimony writing and fishing and feeding sheep.”

Perhaps it is unfair to interpret those words in that way. But real experiences with real leaders are causing that reaction in me. I lknow James Kim well enough, and trust him well enough, to believe that he probably didn’t mean that. But that is because he has made a real effort to step out of his comfort zone and engage in this difficult dialogue.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9302 Thu, 18 Jul 2013 17:24:15 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9302 +1

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By: David Weed http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9301 Thu, 18 Jul 2013 17:12:42 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9301 James, I like the idea of open dialogue very much. A big issue I have with the ministry is that many times, the content being disseminated is controlled by a select few. I know that younger leaders were able to help choose the ISBC theme, but then some of what was agreed upon was later changed by more senior leaders. This was a bit disheartening for me to hear. But at least on a local level we have more control over the content. Along this line of thinking, I’d like to know if the older leaders in Chicago would be willing to allow the younger leaders to partner with them in setting the tone for something such as the worship service. Especially in terms of the content of the sermons, e.g. choosing what to study on Sunday. What if some suggested topical themes such as the gospel, shepherding, ecclesiology, etc. Would this be feasible?

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9300 Thu, 18 Jul 2013 16:57:28 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9300 @Brian.

I am truly sorry for the labels you received simply because you could not take UBF anymore (after 24 years!). Someday the offending UBF leaders may somehow realize, by God’s mercy and help, just how much they cause their sheep and members to feel that they just cannot take UBF anymore, not even for one more minute.

Until this top-down oppression stops (by God’s mercy), many will perceive UBF to be a very sickly wounding machine, rather than a gentle healing balm.

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By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9298 Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:09:38 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9298 Sorry for throwing a drive-by bomb (I’m currently trying to contain myself from engaging in the discussions here to give others more room): My suggestion is that UBFers should reduce using phrases like “focus on Jesus”, particularly in the context of “overcoming old ideology”, because nobody really knows what such phrases mean, since many Biblical phrases and terms have been “loaded” in UBF with unbiblical or questionable associations. For instance, for a UBFer “focus on Jesus” could mean to humbly submit under the “spiritual order” of UBF leaders, but for me “focus on Jesus” could mean to smash all such authoritarian hierarchies with Jesus’ words in Mt 23.

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By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9297 Thu, 18 Jul 2013 14:59:19 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9297 @Green, thank you for proclaiming the truth, yes the church does belong to God not people, so it should be administered accordingly..

@David, thank you for pointing out that while individual spiritual growth is very important, leadership spiritual growth is also very necessary (otherwise the only possible outcome will be healthy individuals over-enduring an unhealthy collective, or healthy individuals moving on to form their own healthier collectives..)

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By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9296 Thu, 18 Jul 2013 14:42:30 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9296 it takes maturity for all involved to share responsibility, personally & financially; of course we have to do our best to help ourselves, but we have to also do our best to use collective efforts/resources to help others when we can;

it’s easy for churches to help who they want, it’s harder to help who they should; the catholic church didn’t help kids it abused (afraid of losing power/$) until society forced it to by lawsuit, then much more image/donations were lost than if they had addressed it themselves sooner by admitting fault/paying reparative counseling at the time; the new pope seems to be addressing over-opulence of the vatican headquarters which accumulated while many parishioners remained poor around the world

it’s like the mechanic saying, ‘you can pay me now, or you can pay me later’;
it’s ok to give problems a little time to see if they work themselves out, but if gets worse, sooner or later need to address/fix before gets too bad to fix/too costly to recover

ubf/religion stands at a crossroads, serious problems can be addressed/reasonable reparation made (for example, counseling fees provided) for those most affected; or at some point society backlashes & resorts to legal means which is much more unpleasant/costly

personally i’m at a point of ‘going with God’, He has moved me to address my family’s needs myself; i can’t change what happens with many years past giving but i can redirect most of my current ‘old testament defined’ giving to follow ‘new testament precepts’: pay debts (including college loans; over-donating while needing to borrow government required ‘expected family contributions’ adds up..)

i think churches would do well to become less program inventing/money collecting which fosters ‘business’ (“busy-ness”) mentality & imitate Jesus more: simple living, simple worship, simple service (Jesus had no need to amass buildings or excessive financial reserves); true faith is what most families have no choice but to do, depend on God for tomorrow for today has it’s own costs/troubles as Jesus put it;

let’s get real: why do churches too often become blackholes absorbing too much around them? shouldn’t ‘rich’ churches immediately obey God by giving most excess to the poor in the world? didn’t early church (acts) set good example by whoever had too much, giving so that poor could have enough?
maybe us humans are too weak to handle religion spiritually; let’s grow up by using our own resources to help our own families first (to avoid burdening the church ourselves) then when/as able contribute excess to help others;
certainly there is no place in religion for amassing wealth the way world does
(otherwise we do nothing but create a corrupted religious kingdom, as bad or worse than world; just as any old testament prophet..:)

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By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9295 Thu, 18 Jul 2013 13:12:16 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9295 that’s why these days i’m not really in or out of anything, i show up where i can & do the best i can, to the extent i’m allowed; as Jesus said: ‘i am’ (“we are”)

what i mean is, in Christ Alone i stand (or fall) so whether i’m hanging in there with a particular religious group at the time (st. francis style) or moving on
to another/even effectively “on my own” before God for a time (martin luther style), the spiritual path continues

risking sacrilege, i mutter words from an old jimi hendrix song: ‘i am what i am, thank God’

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By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9293 Thu, 18 Jul 2013 11:01:21 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9293 @David, thank you for your honest concern. “But it seems as though the most influential people in UBF want to stick to its fifty year old ideology” This is my concern also. We have to continue open dialogue among leaders and do our best to focus on Jesus and overcome our old ideology.

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By: Green http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9275 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 01:21:13 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9275 I began to be aware of God’s grace after the long dark night of soul. I understand what happened to you.

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9273 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 00:19:29 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9273 I hear you bigbear, and I agree. Reconciliation should start with people like you and your family. And also meanwhile, concerned friends and relatives continue to reach out to me.

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9267 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 23:30:58 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9267 @Green,

“I felt indignant when I heard some leader said, “If you don’t like UBF legacy, leave.” or they kicked out people who protested for wrongs, as if they are God. I mean, you don’t need to leave because you are not accepted by some leaders.”

Thanks for clarifying! So if I understand you, you are acknowledging David’s legitimate right to both stay and speak up, and to not have to be the one who leaves. If so, then I agree.

In fact, that was my first thought back in 2011. All I did was share one conference report that didn’t conform to the ubf “glory story” format. And the fight was on. It lasted 4 months, and I couldn’t take it anymore. I remember thinking, “Why should I be the one to leave? God called me here. This is my ministry.” But in fact, I was wrong. It was never my ministry. Suddenly I found myself labeled as “troublemaker”, “poisonous”, “spiritually dead” and my favorite “possibly demon possessed”. I was suddenly the “voice of Satan attacking ubf”. There is only so much of that kind of fighting a human being can do.

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By: David Weed http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9266 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 23:20:42 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9266 James, there’s a big but that comes after the sentence you quoted. What do you think of those assertions? Your hypothesis is that if we’re all growing spiritually, individually, then the congregation as a whole will become healthy. But it seems as though the most influential people in UBF want to stick to its fifty year old ideology. If I’m wrong, please show me clear examples of forward-thinking efforts and real change. Thanks.

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By: big bear http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9265 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 23:05:32 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9265 James, Alan, and other leaders of UBF…In the meantime, while all this spiritual talk is going on my family and I have not yet received even a letter of apology from Cinti UBF or it’s director or any compensation for the abuse that has transpired over our family over the last 29 years. To me, it is just blowing smoke and clinging to dead religion. A healthy and alive church apologizes for it’s abuses and its mistakes even if it is not perfect. I think real change begins when leaders are willing to personally say they are deeply wrong and are willing to make things right. Reading books and even making entries on this website does not show me much. The counseling fees are out of this world,(UBF leaders know the amount I sent them an email), the destruction of our family, and the abuses are unreal. But it is all ignored in the name of mission and in the name of getting better. We know that UBF may never apology to us or compensate us for the huge damages done to our family and our pocketbook. However, God knows and He will deal with the lack of love and example UBF is giving to the world. “Love must be sincere.” Romans 12:9 James, start the reconciliation process by reconciling with those who went out from you and really mean to compensate us. This will help our families and bring closure to a painful time in our lives.

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By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9262 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 22:56:29 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9262 David, thank you for your excellent comment. I agree with your statement and we all should strive to grow as mature Christians who have the image of Jesus. “the author Richard Foster advocates similar inward monk-like practices that Scazzero has put forth. Foster’s assertion is that we don’t necessarily need more intelligent or gifted people in our society, but rather deep people. I would say this applies especially to UBF. I can channel my inner monk and receive deep revelation from God about how I should pattern my life in order to be spiritually healthy”

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By: David Weed http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9260 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 22:00:40 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9260 @Brian. Thanks for the admonishing words. I’m prayerfully considering this with my wife. Whatever the decision, I want it to be a healthy one for the both of us. But while I’m here, I refuse to be on autopilot mode; I’m going to speak up and pray for change.

@Green, thanks for the reply. I agree, I need to see this from the point of view of God’s sovereingty. But I’ve been questioning lately how much of the decision God has left up to me. I think he’s given me a lot of freedom in this matter, provided that it’s based on love. And the tension present in the interaction between our individual convictions and that of the congregation is what I’ve been trying to grapple with as of late. How do I resolve this conflict; is it even possible in this lifetime?

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By: Green http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9259 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 21:06:16 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9259 I felt indignant when I heard some leader said, “If you don’t like UBF legacy, leave.” or they kicked out people who protested for wrongs, as if they are God. I mean, you don’t need to leave because you are not accepted by some leaders. You don’t need to be discouraged or segregated just because you thoughts and value are different from some rigid people. God is with you. However, I understand how hard it will be. We need strong faith to wait for God’s time. On individual level, we should forgive and let it go because bitterness will not bring anything good but harm on ourselves. On public level, we can not be just pacifists but can speak up for God.

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9257 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 20:31:02 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9257 Green,

“Hope you never leave the church unless it is clearly God’s will. You are called to be in this church.”

Why do you feel the need to say this? How do you know who is called where and when they should leave or stay?

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By: Green http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9256 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 19:58:39 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9256 David,

Doesn’t church belongs to God? God sits on the throne and rules. Those who think they are leaders must fear God. Church is not their possession(even founders).
The one who put you here on earth, in this church, in your family, in your working place is God and He has divine will and purpose. I think what you spoke up is right and courageous if those stemmed from your love for God.
Hope you never leave the church unless it is clearly God’s will. You are called to be in this church.

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9253 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 18:17:10 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9253 Good thoughts here David. Whatever you decide to do, I hope it will 1) be you and your wife’s decision together and 2) don’t end up like me or big bear..do anything you can to avoid that, whether that means staying or not that’s up to you, but be aware of warning signs that you are becoming like us.

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By: David Weed http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9252 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 18:07:22 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9252 @Joe. It’s interesting that our posts here share the same sentiments; I think that we posted our comments nearly at the same time. But yeah, most of those who I know who have left expressed angst over hopelessly clashing with the monolithic fixture that is UBF ideology. It’s to such a degree that personal remediation can only go so far; the whole ministry needs to be permeated by a right paradigm.

@Sharon. I’ve talked to many people who are trying to embrace these processes of redefinition. But again, it’s hard to fight against the tide of fifty years of heritage. Sometimes I feel as though I have two choices: stay and pray for the leadership to have a change of heart all the while necessarily becoming spiritually insular in order to protect myself, living out the gospel on my own terms (which of course doesn’t work) or simply leave. Searching for answers.

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By: Sharon http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9250 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 14:11:26 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9250 Thank you, David. I think it’s been very healthy for many of us to redefine our relationship with UBF as an organization. This looks different in each case. Some stay, some go, some opt out of certain activities. I hope the organization can learn to see these choices as valid and healthy. I’m asking all the same questions.

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9249 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 13:36:55 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9249 David, this is an excellent comment. It reflects a great deal of what I have experienced.

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9248 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 12:46:12 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9248 James,

“Another important thing is to see more and more people among us to be transformed and changed by the grace of God.”

And what about those who are not among you anymore? Those former leaders who collectively gave millions toward your $13 million reserves? Those former leaders who sacrificed tens of thousands of hours to try and make your heritage work? And I’m not talking about 1976. I am talking about 2011. Do you feel any responsibility for their transformation?

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By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9247 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 11:32:49 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9247 Joe,thank you for your comment. “I agree that these insights can be an antidote to much of the unhealthy spirituality we’ve identified in ubf, at least at a personal level. In my opinion, however, it would be a huge mistake for leaders to say that the best way to address the myriad problems in ubf is for each person to turn inward and focus on his or her own personal walk with God.”

I agree with you. In my opinion, it is so important to set the right direction from the leadership based on the gospel. Another important thing is to see more and more people among us to be transformed and changed by the grace of God.

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By: David Weed http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9246 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 11:29:08 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9246 James, I truly appreciate you replying with your personal story; I think that we need to hear many more stories like this. I didn’t mean to minimize or dismiss the author’s proposal for an antidote to our spiritual problems, it’s just that I wanted to hear about how leaders in UBF are personally changing and implementing these solutions. A very significant portion of the angst that both former and current members of UBF experience is caused by the maddening silence of long time leaders. We know that they are real people, or at least we want to believe that; we want to love them, interface with them and have honest life-giving dialogue. So why is there such a wall of silence put up between us and them? Moreover, do they really want to deny that many abuses have occurred in the past and still occur to this day in UBF? Surely, we have heard that in private many leaders (and I have experienced this in talking personally with a prominent leader in Chicago) lament the negative aspects of SL’s legacy. Why can’t we publicly acknowledge this? I think that this is the beginning point of fostering an environment where true, healthy spirituality can actually flourish. I truly appreciate your admittance UBF somehow lost its way by overemphasizing works. Will other leaders publicly acknowledge this so that we can begin to have real, Christ/cross-centered dialogue?

I largely agree with what Scazzero has written about our spiritual condition and the subsequent remedy. From my perspective, it seems as though he has largely drawn from the classic The Celebration of Discipline. There, the author Richard Foster advocates similar inward monk-like practices that Scazzero has put forth. Foster’s assertion is that we don’t necessarily need more intelligent or gifted people in our society, but rather deep people. I would say this applies especially to UBF. I can channel my inner monk and receive deep revelation from God about how I should pattern my life in order to be spiritually healthy. But the problem is that when I come in contact with a leader who espouses UBF’s core ideology, I often find that we fundamentally and vehemently disagree on many things. We like to champion our adherence to intellectual Bible study in UBF and tout the fact that we have many gifted teachers among us. Though we have spiritually deep individuals, the environment that UBF creates does not seem conducive to allowing these individuals to have a shared voice; those who are heard are mainly those who adhere, to the death, to the same old UBF heritage statements. How can healthy spirituality flourish in environment such as this?

For instance, after I spent significant time praying and meditating as to what God would have me focus on in this season of my life, I have recently been convicted that my main mission field is my home and my workplace. Thus my focus and convictions haves shifted from campus mission to these two areas. Why have I seen others who have taken up a similar stance become marginalized or denigrated for being ‘work or family centered’? Also, I do not plan to attend the summer conference because I am extremely busy and in general I do not like large conferences; I have experienced that I get much more out of attending smaller retreats without so much going on. I know that I will receive significant flack due to this decision. But why can’t leaders in UBF accept such decisions? It is because UBF’s core ideology is itself a source of unhealthy spirituality and it is continually pushing people away. Recently several young, spiritually gifted young men left our chapter due to being marginalized by the UBF brass for having different but valid viewpoints on ministry practices. No one has said anything about it, it’s just business as usual.

What I’m saying James is that while Scazzero’s direction sounds wonderful, how on earth can we implement this in UBF?

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9245 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 11:10:35 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9245 This book, and these insights from Scazzero, have literally changed my life. He (Scazzero) identifies some big holes in evangelical theology and practice that need to be mended.

James wrote:

“When I came to ubf during my college days, I was fascinated with the inductive bible study led by M Sarah Barry and I was full of joy and thanksgiving. It was a pure joy to learn more about Jesus through bible study and we spent a lot of time in bible study. But gradually as the time passed by, I believe we put more emphasis on work and performance which could have resulted in joyless and tired Christian living.”

My experiences were similar. Bible study led me to encounter God in a life-changing way. But the constant emphasis on doing, doing, doing — measuring my spiritual condition by how much I was participating in evangelism and discipleship activities — eventually became a stumbling block, distracting from serious character issues that weren’t being addressed. I wasn’t being spiritually formed. These insights from Scazzero’s book were so important in helping me to see the shortcomings of my life and making necessary changes.

I agree that these insights can be an antidote to much of the unhealthy spirituality we’ve identified in ubf, at least at a personal level.

In my opinion, however, it would be a huge mistake for leaders to say that the best way to address the myriad problems in ubf is for each person to turn inward and focus on his or her own personal walk with God. The problems of authoritarianism and abuse are systemic, and leaders need to take decisive steps to address them at the organizational level. A new emphasis on emotional and spiritual health is sorely needed, but I fear that it can become just another technique that some leaders will use to spiritualize away the organizational problems and avoid making the tough choices that are needed to save the organization from internal collapse.

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9244 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 10:38:14 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9244 “When we face walls (crisis) I believe it is time to journey inward. What that means is that we have to slow down in our many activities.”

I agree with you James on that one. I found that I had to slow down so much and then actually stop ubf activities in order to journey inward. I had to get all the ubf voices out of my head so I could hear Jesus’ voice. And it has been an amazing journey!

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By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9243 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 02:52:40 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9243 @Brian, thank you for your comment. When we face walls (crisis) I believe it is time to journey inward. What that means is that we have to slow down in our many activities. We need to spend more time with Jesus and accept his relentless love and pursuit for us.

In return, we love him back and love our neighbors. All of our activities should come from our love for God and our neighbor whether it is 1:1 bible study or personal witnessing.

We each have solitary monk within us and that will enrich our spirituality.

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By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9242 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 02:38:23 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9242 @David, as you said we talked about many problems in ubf. In this article he talked about radical antidote for unhealthy spirituality. I am still learning how to incorporate this radical antidote (solutions) in my practical life. The life of prayer in silence and solitude,constantly living in the presence of God and listening to the teachings of Jesus at the feet of Jesus like Mary.

When I came to ubf during my college days, I was fascinated with the inductive bible study led by M Sarah Barry and I was full of joy and thanksgiving. It was a pure joy to learn more about Jesus through bible study and we spent a lot of time in bible study. But gradually as the time passed by, I believe we put more emphasis on work and performance which could have resulted in joyless and tired Christian living. I think we need to balance both of contemplation and work.

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By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9241 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 02:33:28 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9241 @David, as you said we talked about many problems in ubf. In this article he talked about radical antidote for unhealthy spirituality. I am still learning how to incorporate this radical antidote (solutions) in my practical life. The life of prayer in silence and solitude,constantly living in the presence of God and listening to the teachings of Jesus at the feet of Jesus like Mary.

When I came to ubf during my college days, I was fascinated with the inductive bible study led by M Sarah Barry and I was full of joy and thanksgiving. It was a pure joy to learn more about Jesus through bible study and we spent a lot of time in bible study. But gradually as the time passed by, I believe we put more emphasis on work and performance which could have resulted in joyless and tired Christian living. I think we need to balance both of contemplation and work.

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9240 Mon, 15 Jul 2013 23:56:36 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9240 And on a more relevant note. Does this ISBC 2013 study guide for leaders incorporate emotionally healthy spirituality in any sense? Or does it foster an “us/good” vs “them/wordly” attitude as if the world is out to persecute ubf shepherds?

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By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9239 Mon, 15 Jul 2013 23:54:39 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9239 Hi James, and thanks for sharing this. I think all ubfers should read this book.

I agree with DavidW. Has this book modified your actions in ubf meetings or beliefs about the ubf heritage?

And in a broader sense, will ubf directors stop teaching that emotions are evil notions that are be suppressed? Will they stop teaching that healthy means “you’re getting fat”? Will they stop saying that spirituality is to be measured by the amount of discipline and loyalty you have?

It would have been nice to hear something about “emotionally healthy spirituality” during my time in ubf. Instead I just heard the 12 point heritage repeated endlessly.

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By: David Weed http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/15/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-part-two/#comment-9236 Mon, 15 Jul 2013 22:39:26 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6468#comment-9236 Hi James, thank you for posting a thoughtful article. I agree with most of what is written in it, but many people have pointed out similar aspects of unhealthy spirituality in numerous places on this blog site so articles like this tend to become ‘old hat’ relatively quickly. I think that people would rather hear your story and engage with you in honest, transparent dialogue; how did the contents here personally changed your way of thinking or modus operandi?

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