Comments on: Sophomoric Musings: My Dream http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/ for friends of University Bible Fellowship Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:34:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.3.1 By: David Weed http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9299 Thu, 18 Jul 2013 16:53:55 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9299 +1

Dr. Ben, in a very practical sense, you’ve implemented much of what the pastor in the dream stated. Especially, I drew inspiration from what you’re doing when I crafted this statement for him:

“But by the authority given to me by the Chief Shepherd Jesus Christ, as a lowly under shepherd of His church, I am resigned to teaching you only about His Gospel, as explained by the whole of Scripture in both the Old and New Testaments, until the day I die.”

]]> By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9294 Thu, 18 Jul 2013 11:16:37 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9294 @PAL, it was good to hear from you. The comment you mentioned was actually from the quote of David Weed’s article if you read it carefully.

I like your comment that we are not the owner of UBF, but were given a privilege to serve God through UBF for a while.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9292 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 22:26:55 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9292 @David, “A lot of confusion and angst arises when, in UBF, young leaders think that they have just as much of a stake in the ministry as the older leaders do.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9291

By God’s help, we (old foggies) at West Loop have deliberately and intentionally given and entrusted our young(er) leaders the stewardship to take the initiative and leadership in the church. Our old(er) members have also intentionally and deliberately decided to support what our young(er) leaders want to do, and to not overrule them or impress upon them what we want or prefer or expect of them.

My greatest joy in such a (risky) venture is that young(er) people speak to me and old(er) leaders as though WL is their own church (and not under me!) and which they have full rights and authority and stewardship over. They do not have to live in fear of displeasing me, or try to figure out what I want or prefer or expect of them. They can truly and freely take the initiative and leadership as to what they wish to do according to the leading of the Spirit (Jn 3:8).

My “only job” literally is to only give them Jesus (Mt 1:21), and the gospel (Ac 20:24), and Christ crucified (1 Cor 1:23; 2:2), and the grace of God (1 Cor 15:10), over and over, which all fall in the marvelous realm of the mysteries of God (1 Cor 4:1).

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9291 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 22:11:07 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9291 @David, “A lot of confusion and angst arises when, in UBF, young leaders think that they have just as much of a stake in the ministry as the older leaders do. Of course, this should be the case, but this is not what the older leaders think; young leaders should be exceedingly humble and should above all respect the fifty year heritage of the ministry. Only the Gospel can change such a mindset.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9280

What you said above says about as nicely as anyone can possibly say it (which I am clueless about how to do!), and it just about nails a core practical fundamental issue in all of UBF, which ONLY THE HOLY SPIRIT (through the gospel and through the humility that follows) can change.

Paraphrasing PAL “’After 75 years, I wish (UBF) does not exist, but let Jesus and his grace continue through (UBF) ministry.’ I thought this is the kind of ministry attitude we all should love to cherish.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9280 May God bless UBF and UBFriends to continue to cherish this dream!

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9290 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 18:14:39 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9290 Well we’re not getting younger..or are we?

Anyway vision is important. I love these quotes about vision/execution I heard lately:

“All too often the best way to see a light at the end of the tunnel is to… go turn it on!” Peter G. Hold

“Vision without a plan is wishful thinking. Planning without a vision is slavery.” unknown

]]> By: David Weed http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9289 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 15:42:13 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9289 @PAL. You hit the nail on the head. On the one hand, the pastor in the dream is a legitimate overseer of the community there, but at the same time, the ministry is a shared venture, under Christ’s ultimate authority of course; his language still indicates that he can’t let go of his long held notion of how much authority and oversight he really has.

A lot of confusion and angst arises when, in UBF, young leaders think that they have just as much of a stake in the ministry as the older leaders do. Of course, this should be the case, but this is not what the older leaders think; young leaders should be exceedingly humble and should above all respect the fifty year heritage of the ministry. Only the Gospel can change such a mindset.

]]> By: David Weed http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9288 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 15:32:58 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9288 @Martha. I’m happy that this resounded with you. From a biblical perspective, there is such a high occurrence and significance placed on dreams and visions throughout many of the texts; the entire book of Revelation is one long, intricate vision which draws from another visionary book, Isaiah. Often, these signify pivotal moments in a figure’s life. I hope that I can take the time to listen to others’ version of ‘the dream’.

@aw. Thank you and I hope that my dream doesn’t dissolve into a mere pipe dream, but rather one that I am willing to continually (humbly and lovingly) fight for and most importantly submit to God in prayer on a regular basis. Hope that we can spend some quality time together in the near future.

]]> By: David Weed http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9287 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 15:18:17 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9287 Thanks, James. I was tempted to have the pastor say that we were going to change the ministry’s name as well. But then I thought if he did that, some peoples’ heads would begin to explode; it would be like totally losing our identity. I left that as a cliff hanger, kind of like with the parishioners thinking “is he going to go there too, change the actual name of the ministry!?” It reveals just how deeply we adhere to things that are so ingrained, so familiar. And it’s human nature of course. But yeah, the implication is that if the Gospel really takes root among us, then the natural conclusion would be to shed our name; we exchange our long held ideology for something much better. I’m not advocating that we do this, I’m just saying in light of the Gospel, do such names even matter?

]]> By: David Weed http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9286 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 15:07:52 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9286 gc, your points 1-3 capture my perpetual angst. Many of the leaders in UBF are beginning to study theology, but until the Gospel somehow uncouples the amalgamation of the Bible and UBF ideology in the minds of said leaders, I’m not sure how much these studies will benefit the church. On point 4, our dreams do indeed tend to be diametrically opposed with reality. It’s funny how many societal structures are infatuated with the idea that acts of force are more influential than acts of humility. Could you imagine what kind of atmosphere the church would have if leaders displayed this kind of humility? That’s why it’s a dream, I suppose.

]]> By: David Weed http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9285 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:46:40 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9285 @Joshua. I should be more optimistic because things are changing quite a bit in Chicago. I love many people here, but that doesn’t negate what I feel in my heart of hearts, as communicated in my dream. Yeah, I guess my dream is a bit dreamy, because the pastor seems to issue a sweeping decree that all of the elders/senior missionaries (except for one) are on board with. In reality, as you said, this needs to happen at the local level where there is not as much oversight.

@Brian. A Bug’s Life is now in my queue of movies to watch. Hopefully this blog is the beginning of the realization of your vision for we desperately need open communication like this.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9284 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:42:59 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9284 “If a person has enough control over my life that I submit to his commands to abandon my three month old daughter, do you think I’m going to disobey when I’m told not to read a website or respond to an email?”

Good point Joshua. And I must add we did that too :(

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9283 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:41:47 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9283 +1

]]> By: David Weed http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9282 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:39:25 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9282 Yes!!! We must have solidarity in this matter; this movie must be watched. Lol. It’s a really freaky movie that you could draw so many different metaphors from. To be honest, I didn’t make the connection that you’re making about UBF regarding people as food. But I guess in some sense it works. Some people (and in the past I felt this way too) seem to draw new life solely from continually inviting and engaging with new recruits. In contrast, Jesus’ food was to do the will of the Father who sent Him, which has a far greater scope than this. The pastor in my dream issued a call for a massive in-reach effort; I think he’s eating the right food.

]]> By: David Weed http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9281 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:29:15 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9281 Thanks, Brian. I’ve thought about writing a lot of articles, but I wanted to make sure that whatever I wrote was something deeply meaningful to not only me but also the virtual community here and those in UBF who may or may not agree with what’s on this blog in general. I’d love to write more, but I’ll have to do some digging and serious soul searching to see what’s mutually beneficial to the aforementioned communities. I hope that we can continue to both dream of and pray together for change (Acts 2:17; btw, does this mean we’re getting old?).

]]> By: PAL http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9280 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:19:37 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9280 James, I would like to make a few comments on your response to David Weed’s posting. In the first place, I carefully read his article and my understanding is that David wants change-real change from the inside out and not just fixing outward behavior(s) in UBF. His main point is not even ministerial practice, but change. During the initial stage, God used Korea UBF in its unique way to bring hope to many students who were in disillusionment after the Korean war. The Korean cultural ethos and social milieu were very conducive to campus ministry in the 60’s. But after 50 years, things have changed, and such ministerial practice(s) have become obsolete. It is like an old computer made in the 70’s. So we need a paradigm change; I believe this is what David Weed and many others are asking for. By now, everybody is realizing that we need change-real change in UBF ministry. Even if we don’t want to be changed, change will come anyway, whether we welcome change or not, because as I mentioned elsewhere, times have changed. You get on board or you are left out- the train is leaving. Any change must first occur in one’s attitude.

What is our UBF ministry attitude then? In your comment, I noticed phrases such as “our blessing” or “we will wholeheartedly support you” or “we are willing to let you have the freedom.” Let me put it in a different way. David and Christine Weed can serve our Lord’s ministry as they please and “we will bless them” and “support them.” I appreciate your BIG heart for David. My question to you is who are “we”? This is exactly why people criticize our UBF ministry at home and abroad. As long as we maintain this “we attitude,” people’s nightmare of UBF control freaks will continue to exist. A word related to “control freaks” is “disconnectedness.” And how many people today are crying for connectedness in UBF? They want to nurture honest deep relationships.

In “Emotionally Healthy Spirituality,” Peter Scazzero also talks about connectedness a number of times. By the way, Peter Scazzero’s book was one of the text books used in one of my core classes in Gordon-Conwell Seminary. I read and wrote a book report about it, my wife Liz Lincoln read it, and recommended it to a number of close friends and they were blessed to read it.What can I say, like Joe, this book was personal redemption for me. We are not the owner of UBF ministry. We were given a privilege to serve God’s ministry in UBF. We all mutually own the ministry together, from top to bottom in UBF.

Recently, I went to Emmanuel Gospel Center’s (EGC) 75th year celebration in Boston’s South End. Someone asked a question- “What will be the shape of EGC after 75 years from this point on?” One of the leaders said: “After 75 years, I wish EGC does not exist, but let Jesus and his grace continue through EGC ministry.” I thought this is the kind of ministry attitude we all should love to cherish.
PAL

]]> By: aw http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9279 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:02:12 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9279 Thank you David for sharing your dream. As others have said, it is very well articulated. It is forward-looking but appropriately deals with the past. And yes there is a place for humor.

Thank God for his grace to us in Jesus Christ. Based on this grace and its power alone I am hopeful. It is actually exciting to make the visions he gave us a reality, even though it is not easy.

]]> By: MarthaO http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9278 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 02:31:59 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9278 Bravo!!! you have articulated my dream so well, I pray that we may experience this as reality soon.

]]> By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9277 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 02:20:24 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9277 Thank you David for your wonderful article. What you said here is very important issue in my opinion. “In terms of ministerial practice, if you have conviction about seeing your home or your workplace or any other place as your mission field, please with our blessing serve with the grace of our Lord Jesus there. You are no longer relegated or tied to the campus to do ministry there; please feel free to serve anywhere as you see fit. Moreover, if you believe that God has called you to do social justice ministry, we will wholeheartedly support you in this endeavor. Actually, we would like to do something revolutionary. We would like to have committees to oversee each of these areas, that is the home, workplace and urban evangelization. Not only these areas but any other area you propose, we are willing to let you have the freedom to build up these ministries under the UBF banner.”

In this case we have to change the name UBF into some other name. This may be reality although I don’t know when.

]]> By: gc http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9276 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 01:37:38 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9276 Thank you David. This was a pleasant change from everything. It echoes what we need and want to hear and see. It also captures the humor of our private thought world when we habitually come to hear the weekly message. I was able to get a couple things from this that could not be said elsewhere on other recent articles.

1) Failure of weekly messages: Personal healing and common experiences are not addressed in the messages. The messages are used to highlight favoured verses in the passage that reinforce the UBF Campus Ministry heritage.

2) 1:1 Bible studies are used to cover point #1: If you have personal troubles it is expected that this is exclusively handled in a 1:1 setting. This results in possible covering up of accountability because conversations are private. Usually this is beneficial for confidentiality of students, but I will repeat that accountability gets thrown out the window. It is a student’s word against a senior leader.

3) The messages become 1 dimensional for many because the honeymoon period is over and the inductive approach can be done independently from UBF gatherings. You can predict how verses will be applied to campus mission and repentence for not managing to achieve the criteria and goal.

4) I could only dream that the messenger would be so humble. A call for unity among all Christian believers is needed. As for the senior leader who walked off. I rather envision the leadership and brass escorting the messenger out of the hall.

I want to keep my comment short – so, stopping here. Thanks again. Also, it is fantastic that another member has made a contribution for an article.

]]> By: joshua http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9274 Wed, 17 Jul 2013 00:39:09 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9274 They don’t need to control information if they control thinking and behaviour. If a person has enough control over my life that I submit to his commands to abandon my three month old daughter, do you think I’m going to disobey when I’m told not to read a website or respond to an email? I still sometimes tremble uncontrollably whenever I login to UBFriends.

]]> By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9272 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 23:53:29 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9272 You are definitely raising the standards.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9271 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 23:45:08 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9271 @Joshua: “They can pick and choose whatever reforms they want to bring in or leave out.”

Ah but now they CANNOT do something they always did: control the information! Now all ubf people around the world can instantly know all about reforms and other happenings. I think some older poeple are afraid now, because as MarkM said once here “the jig is up.” Information can no longer be controlled in ubf as it was in the day of me and bigbear before the internet and before email.

@DavidW: Your dream reminds me of the dream I had awhile back, actually it was just the end of the Bug’s life movie. Back in 2011 I envisioned thousands of ubf people communicating to each other, realizing they are the ones with the power and authority.

]]> By: joshua http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9270 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 23:40:15 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9270 What a dream! I could see such an event happening in Chicago or another ministry maybe someday, but then all the missionaries who said “This is heresy” just go and continue the heritage in a different place. There were so many times when I pined for the sort of reforms that were occurring in Chicago, but those things never trickled down into small house churches. Chapter directors had and always will have absolute control. They can pick and choose whatever reforms they want to bring in or leave out. They can instruct their members, “Don’t pay attention to that chapter; they lost their mission.” They can prevent them from attending certain conferences if they detect a whiff of disloyalty to the heritage.

Therefore, my dream isn’t for a figurehead to stand up and declare such a message, but for each individual local chapter director–who are really the engines driving the UBF crazy train–to be the ones who actually implement such a dream.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9269 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 23:39:16 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9269 And now I absolutely must watch the movie with an absolute spirit!

And on a serious note: I really really appreciate your understanding that the “food” of ubf is people. Thanks.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9268 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 23:33:57 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9268 Awesome dream, David! I love this post. Can we have more like it? Your humor and candor are excellent. We may be decades from this ever happening (hopefully not) but visualizing the dream is important. I share your dream. I hope the door is open now to actualize it.

]]> By: David Weed http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9264 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 23:02:39 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9264 Thanks, Joe. Buried beneath all of the silliness in my post, this is what I wanted to convey the most, even though ten cent wings and riding on a purple dragon sound far better. Jk… sort of. I really hope I’m not lowering the standards of ubfriends. But then again, I ask, what standards? Ok, let me stop.

]]> By: David Weed http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9261 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 22:36:07 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9261 Someday, padawan, you will learn the way of the master… Lol, jk. Thanks for the props, Dr. Ben. I’m putting my hope in God’s will to grant us more than we could ever imagine, as the Gospel declares.

]]> By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9255 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 19:29:44 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9255 Wonderful article.

The part I liked best was this:

“We will not look to UBF heritage to define the Gospel; rather we will look to the Bible, church history and also the current work of many contemporary theologians and pastors who have exclusively focused on this issue.”

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/07/16/sophomoric-musings-my-dream/#comment-9254 Tue, 16 Jul 2013 19:18:21 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6473#comment-9254 Bravo! David, you have virtually articulated my own dream almost verbatim but with far more elegance and eloquence than I ever could muster! My own dream then would be to be able to match your poetic enunciation and erudition someday.

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