except since WE ARE as JESUS WAS, Holy Spirit can move us right over to better path (gotta let go failed religio & grab on to espiritu..)

Anyone have the letter where he made abortion a requirement for a missionary candidate couple to be “sent out”? I suppose they won’t include those letters…

I am really interested in reading and listening to such things these days. There is such a rich trove of deep thoughts by amazing people out there.

For example, I was so moved by the Willow Creek Global Leaderhsip Summit that I purchased the entire video series CD set of the talks there. They are astounding. The CD’s will arrive in October sometime.

But they sent a free bonus video of an interview of Patrick Lencioni by a Canadian lead pastor. It is 29 minutes and remarkable. Patrick answers the pastor’s questions and applies his new book “The Advantage” to various church leadership issues. It was really eye-opening for me.

Anyone interested in watching this 29 minute video of Patrick Lencioni?

I am willing to do a Skype screenshare with anyone who wants to watch it. Patrick answers some tough questions pastors deal with in leading their church organization. Just send me email or reply here and we can setup a Skype session.

My offer still stands. I am so excited about what these things are teaching me about leadership. It’s very helpful even in marriage and work and friendships in addition to church relationships.

TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth; 5

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same, 10

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back. 15

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference. 20

(now is the time to choose wisely at the crossroad of religious experience)

Thank you! Thank you for giving me the most cogent and honest answer I could have asked for. Thank you for taking the time to write such an answer that I could understand what it is that you actually went through. I will tell you that your answer is not just being read by me but many others as well. An answer like this will do more to correct matters, than much of what has been written.

I will make one correction although. I’m not thick skinned, if you didn’t notice, I take great umbrage when I feel I have been slighted or feel like I have been disrespected. I will tell you that I never experienced that kind of pressure, as I shared Msn. Isaac Kim did not do such things to me, nor did I see it for others. (I would prefer if you typed out his name. I noticed that many here who speak of him or Msn. Samuel Lee only type out their initials. I really think everyone has the right to have their name ‘said’ or ‘typed’. It may not be intentional, but no one has addressed me as ‘T’ or ‘TLo’, I don’t think that it should be done to them or anyone for that matter). Tbh, there are many people in our ministry, including messengers who have even taken vacations or gone camping and did not attend the Sunday worship service. I know some Korean coworkers were not happy, but it didn’t change their position and when their turn to deliver a message came they still did. I’m talking about me, but also others.

I’m very sorry to hear that you felt and experienced such a thing, I genuinely am. I’m also glad to hear that you married your wife. :-).

I already answered that question by telling you about a concrete “punitive measure” that I experienced, but now I want to give a much deeper answer.

Behind your question I see the objection “What can they really do to you? The worst thing they can do is rebuke you, shun you, or kick you out of UBF, which would be a blessing for you if UBF is really so bad.” This objection sounds somewhat reasonable, particularly if you are a thick-skinned person. (Sorry if I think of you as such a person, based on the frequency of the phrase “I don’t care” in your comments. The horrible things that happened in your childhood would be a good explanation why you developed such a thick skin.). Your objection could also be phrased like this: “How could they ‘force’ you to attend meetings and obey them? What ‘lever’ did they have to force you do to something?”

Let me approach your objection from that direction. One “lever” is certainly marriage. They can delay your marriage or cancel a planned marriage. After marriage, if your spouse is a loyal hardcore UBF member, this is also a strong lever. If you want to have a harmonic family life and not risk a divorce, you better follow the UBF program in that case. Marriage is a strong lever, but for many members, this is not the strongest lever. If it had been the only lever, we would have left UBF immediately after marriage. But we stayed more than one year longer and might be still in there if not the reform movement had happened after that one year, which opened our eyes.

What really happens in UBF for the majority of members is this: When they started reading the Bible, they started to believe in God. They experienced a conversion, being born again, turning away from their former sinful life. So far, so good. However, UBF goes a step further. They strongly connect this experience of conversion with your becoming a shepherd and active member of UBF, and tell you the whole thing would never have happened without UBF, without your shepherd, without Samuel Lee who started it all. The testimony about your conversion, usually shared at a conference, is at the same time a pledge to become a shepherd in UBF. The “heavenly calling” is the same as the calling to be a UBF shepherd. The “kingdom of God” is the same as UBF. The center is the “house of God”. The leaders are the “servants of God”. The orientation given by the leaders is the “will of God”. The training by your leaders is “divine discipline”. Showing thankfulness to God is the same as showing thankfulness to your shepherds. Giving money to God is the same as giving money to UBF. The “holy nation” is UBF, and you have become a “royal priest” by being a UBF shepherd. The categories “God” and “UBF” become inseparably linked in your mind. Most of all, if you think about the meaning of your life, it has become to be a shepherd in UBF and to disciple as many students as you can. This calling gives your life an absolute importance and meaning. The UBF director now becomes the “visible servant of God” for you (I’m using the words of IK) who leads you through this process of becoming a great man or woman of God. Even your marriage has only this one meaning, it is a “house church”, and your spouse is not really your spouse, but your “co-worker”. Outside of this calling, your marriage and your life have no meaning any more. Would your spouse leave UBF, you would divorce and remarry a more loyal member (maybe not you and me, but I know several cases where this happened). Would you ever leave UBF yourself, this would be equal to leaving your calling, your faith, to leaving God. You would fall back to the same sinful, meaningless life as before UBF (which was part 1 of your life testimony – over the years you have been indoctrinated to believe that there are only two possible lifestyles, the spiritual, absolutely meaningful lifestyle of a UBF shepherd, and the meaningless, senseless and sinful life of more or less all other people). To leave your calling in UBF would also mean losing eternal live as a consequence. You could just as well go kill yourself. (Once when I got kicked out of UBF for a while, I really had suicidal thoughts because I believed God had taken away my calling. Others who were kicked out – even sheep who were considered “unteachable” – told me how much they felt not only disappointed by people, but also abandoned by God.)

So with other words, what is the strong lever that can force people to attend every meaning and tolerate every abuse? It is the “meaning of live” that UBF gives you and that UBF threatens to take away from you as well. If you get rebuked by “the visible servant of God” it is much more than an ordinary rebuke from an ordinary person. It is the same as a rebuke by God himself. If you are shunned or expelled by the servant of God, this is tantamount to being abandoned by God. Leaving UBF under such circumstances, even if you already start to understand the problems, leaving your “absolute meaning of life,” is always a trauma.

Now, as a thick-skinned person, you may not understand this. You may think we’re crazy to believe such things, and to interconnect our heavenly calling and our UBF calling so strongly, to make it the meaning of our lives, and to believe UBF people are servants of God. Nevertheless, this is what happened to me and many others. How did this happen? Through years of indoctrination in 1:1 sessions, sogam sharing sessions, conferences, Sunday messages, daily bread messages etc. etc. You hear the same stuff every week, every day, with no hiatus. It’s repetition and all the other mechanisms of mind control (including self-indoctrination by writing your own sogams) at work in UBF that finally result in this view of yourself, of UBF and God. By attending all these meetings, we reinforce this mindset that does not allow us to skip the meetings. It’s a vicious circle. UBF leaders know this very well and that’s why they also disallow people from getting a hiatus, because that could break the circle.

Maybe because you don’t attend many of the meetings, you could not be brainwashed so deeply to get into the mindset I described, and so you don’t understand this “spiritual grip” that UBF has over so many people. Obviously you don’t believe in most of the stuff UBF teaches, you don’t even seem to take the Bible seriously. Maybe you just stay in UBF out of loyalty, because you see your chapter director as your “father.” Maybe you have more social reasons for staying in UBF than spiritual reasons. But even you seem to be susceptible to the idea that certain people are “anointed” by God, so they should not be criticized. This is not so far away from the mindset I described above.

Sorry for writing so much again, but you provoked me to answer, and I wanted to explain things properly.

This is a horrible attitude, Terry. All the testimonies that have been published have been written by real, living people, who were members of your organization.

Also, you are the one who can decide with whom you can speak directly. The reformers wanted to speak with IK, but he decided not to talk with them. The problem was not that he could not speak with the reformers, but that he did not want to speak with them. In your case, ask yourself, is the problem that you can’t speak with certain people, or that you don’t care to speak with these people first of all, because you don’t care about their problems, as long as you don’t have the same problems?

By the way, you shouldn’t read the Bible any more with such an attitude. Are people like Adam, Noah, Abraham real, live people for you? Can you speak with them directly? So why are you concerned about their stories?

Why should the world be concerned about anything that happens in the world as long as it does not affect us directly, or as long as we cannot speak with the affected people directly?

Well, she is my wife now. The chapter director later revised his decision and let us marry after we had written the obligatory testimony of repentance. But he never really admitted that he did a horrible thing (and he never shared his own testimony of repentance over this stuff). He kind of “apologized”, but it was not a real apology, he just tried to cover up what had happened and wanted to let us pretend it never happened. But then, only month later, he did a similar thing with another couple who wanted to marry, so I know his “apology” was done just to appease us and so that nobody will hear about what happened. A lot of such stories happen behind the curtains of UBF and you never hear about them. To me and my wife, it was a severe trauma that happened in the phase of our lives that should be the luckiest days of romance and honeymoon, but this trauma overshadowed everything, and we couldn’t really be lucky in these days. Our marriage had been nearly destroyed by someone who we believed to be the “servant of God” (yes, we still believed that at the time, so we were very confused).

It was interesting to read your response to this story. In essence you said: “No matter what evil things are done to you, don’t worry, because God is always with you, and as long as you have God, there is nothing that really can harm you – the whole experience helped you to focus even more on God, so it was probably good for you”. Recently, I found an old email written by a UBF friend from another chapter. He complained that he had been not only kicked out of UBF, but also out of his “common life” apartment in UBF, for no apparent reason except that he was “absent without leave” (very similar as in my case, I have no reason not to believe him that this was the only reason). He was kicked out late at night and had no other place to sleep, so he had to sleep in the railway station. Note: He was not kicked out by his room mates, but by the chapter director who believed to be the head of the common life communities. This is what he reported to me. Not with bitter words, but with sad words. What would have been the right thing for me to do? I should have demanded and explanation from that chapter leader and let this thing escalate. What did I do instead? I gave the poor expelled member the lame “spiritual advice” to focus on God, to learn from the bad experience, to look what maybe he had done wrong, to forgive his leader etc. Very similar to what you wrote in one of your comments to my story. Today I know this is just unhealthy, makes the hurt worse and protects abusive leaders and enables them to proceed with their abuse.

In my case, your excuse may be even cheaper: “See, this story had a happy end anyway. So why do you still complain?”

Please understand that I complain not only because this did real damage to our souls and our relationship, and because I know many similar stories in UBF without a tragic end. The point is that this is not a story about me. You try to turn it into a story about me. It is a story about my chapter director and UBF. It is not a singular, extraordinary event. Similar things have happened to several people in my chapter, in other chapters in Germany and all around the world, and particularly in Chicago. The way how my chapter director behaved had not to come out of his own head. He had learned all of this from Samuel Lee. When you read the letter written by the 7 senior shepherds in 1976 and other complaints about SL, what do you think? He should have been removed from office long ago? Why do you think this way only about my chapter leader? SL was much worse than him.

That’s true. In reality, he got promoted by Samuel Lee to become European director after I left, because he stood so strongly against reform. And after him, the other chapter director, who was even worse, was promoted to be Europe + CIS director for several years (I don’t know who made that decision, but it certainly played a role that Samuel Lee had praised that man even when he was already investigated by the state attorney and several shocking testimonies by members of his chapter had been published).

Though of course I understand you according to your answers. I think you’ll understand me for I think my ubf director did something very similar your father did to your family. Sexual abuse and spiritual abuse are not far from each other. And sometimes spiritual abuse leads to a sexual abuse, in ubf. God enabled me to forgive but my ubf “father” says he has been right always and has done nothing wrong at all. I talked to MY about SL and my director, and you know what, he also says SL was a father to him so he loves him no matter what. And he told me to love my ubf director and serve God together with him :) I would agree that a Confucian father is better than an alcoholic father. But when someone who brings people to Jesus brings them to himself as well, to be called a father by them, it is a spiritual abuse, it is a pride, it is confucainism. A good shepherd will bring people to Jesus and to the Heavenly Father and will himself remain invisible for the people.

And I want to add. Terry, I hope you’ll understand me. Your father abused your sisters. If I lived in the US (and if the Lord hadn’t saved me) I suppose in such case as yours there could happen some more shooting. I mean, what would you feel if you saw how your ubf “father” abused your wife and children, and your brothers and sisters, almost daily? What would you do if your wife cries in a closed room almost daily, after a ubf missionary phone calls her and rebukes her? (You don’t read other’s testimonies but one of such ubf sisters of yours and someone’s wife jumped of the platform under a train, and it was in the US. (Anna Karenina committed suicide (because of her sins) in Russia and it was in a book, but your ubf sister committed suicide being in ubf in the US) What have you done about this? What has her husband done about this? What would you do if you were him? What are you going to do, being in the organization which has borne such fruit?) What would you feel when after you raise your concerns the organization and the “most holy ubf fathers” (and a Mother) tell you that the “fathers” are untouchable. And they start teaching you to forgive and forget and shut up and move on. If you understand me on this point you’ll understand many on this site.

I can’t be everywhere to consult if something is valid or Biblical. :))

I echo your sentiments completely. People have been mistreated and ‘lorded’ over and I must shamefully confess that when I was younger I did similar things. I treated people who trusted me as though they were awards or medals on my chest that I could ‘show off’ how spiritual and great I was. Some I got to apologize to; but others sadly, I never saw again, to apologize to them. For that I do regret. But I will say this, UBF didn’t teach me to treat people that way. I did that all on my own. I recall hearing messages against such a thing on several occasions, but it went in one ear and right out the other, because of my great sin of pride and love of self.

I thank God for His sin forgiving love to such a sinner as me. I thank God that I could grow up and learn to begin not mistreating people, (which I still do, but not in the same way that I used to) especially those who put their trust in my opinions and views and listen to my advice. I really trust and believe that God will look after those whom I have mistreated in the past and bless their lives despite me; which I believe He does, because He loves them, even more than I deserve their forgiveness.

Having said that, I know many, many other individuals and families whose departures from UBF were painful and traumatic. They were part of the ministry for 10, 20, even 30 years or more. They left because, plainly and simply, they were treated badly by immature and misguided ministry leaders who lorded over them. I am not happy at all about their departure. They are some of the most kind, devout, gifted and dedicated people I have ever met. It was foolhardy for UBF to drive them away. If you could gather them all together into a single church, it would be one of the finest congregations in America. Losing them was tragedy and a cause for deep concern.

The other night I was at home and a brother who lives in the basement of my home came up with another brother who recently left our chapter. They had gone to dinner and they came upstairs to see me and my family. I was so happy to see this brother who had left. I had had the chance to spend a considerable amount of time with him in the past. I really love the guy. He’s like a younger brother to me. My son’s really like him and he is like an older brother to them. Well, when he came upstairs I could see that he felt really uncomfortable. Knowing him, I know that he lives for the approval of people. We have talked about this alot over the time we have known each other and he knows this is something he shouldn’t do. Well, I could see while he was visitiing that he wasn’t his normal cheerful self. I already had heard that he had left the ministry (please don’t ask why, because it’s no one’s business, except to those who he decides to share it to). So I guessed that he felt uncomfortable that I would be upset or disappointed that he left or perhaps he thought I was going to try and talk him to come back. I don’t know exactly what he was thinking, but what I did do was address the issue straight on and told him that I was happy for him and that I hope he finds a church that he feels comfortable at. I told him he is always welcome in my home and I always will consider him a brother. I was happy to see his old smile return and his shoulder’s relax and to see my ‘brother’ return. He confessed he hadn’t been going to a church regularly so I chided him and told him he needs to. He agreed.

I’m going to share another story. There is a woman my wife and I studied with many, many years ago. She is a Korean woman, my wife met her at her work, long, long ago. My wife studied with her for years and years. She worked as a waitress in a restaraunt (with my wife). But after studying the Bible she decided she wanted to become a nun. She had been a Catholic her whole life. My wife and I never considered to tell her to be anything different. We believe that the Gospel speaks to God’s people. So she became a nun. She remained a nun for over 5 years. She was in Washington D.C. and she took care of the elderly. Well, Kim (her last name) every year contacts my wife and tells her that she loves my wife and thanks her for being her Bible teacher and friend. She left the sisterhood and moved back to Korea. She doesn’t attend UBF and it really doesn’t matter. We are so thankful for her.

I’m going to tell you another story. There is a young woman who went to USC and was working on her Ph.D. in Marketing (I think… I know it’s business, but I think it’s Marketing). She finally finished her Ph.D. and is now teaching in one of the Ivy League Schools, I think it’s Princeton. She does not attend UBF, nor does she have desire to do so. But she leads a group Bible study with graduate students at the school she teaches at. For that my wife and I are so thankful and joyful.

My point in sharing all these stories is that I don’t think and never have believed that UBF is the end all be all. Those who leave, I am very happy for. For those who remain, I’m also happy for.

I’m very curious about the girl who was your fiance. What happened to her? Did you eventually marry her? Did she marry someone else? Is she still in UBF or did she leave?

Thank you for answering my question. Your chapter director should be removed (if he hasn’t already) from his position. And it sounds like it was a good thing for you to be able to be free from his manipulative ways.

No, I don’t read any of the testimony’s of others. I will only address real, live people, so that I can speak to them directly. Everything else, I do not concern myself with.

Terry, obviously you did not read many of the testimonies written by ex UBF members. If you did not attend meetings, you were rebuked, told to be unspiritual, and finally kicked out.

In fact I do not need to speculate what would have happened, since I experienced in real life what happened. I have already several times written about the reaction of my chapter leader when I did not attend a meeting shortly before my planned marriage because I wanted to spend the time with my mother: He kicked me out of UBF and sent my fiance to a different UBF chapter, telling her I had become unspiritual. This happened despite the fact that I had been 10 years in UBF, that I was a grown-up adult of over 30 years, that I had already been engaged for one year that we had decided to “marry by faith” and that I had even attended the SWS only hours before (it was only one of the supplementary meetings after the SWS that I missed – he insisted that I needed to attend, I insisted that I needed to spend time with my mother, that was it – it was interpreted as disobedience and reason to cancel our marriage). I’m actually very lucky that I disobeyed and did not attend the meeting. Without that small act of disobedience maybe I would have never found out the true face and character of my chapter director and UBF as a whole.

Don’t tell me this was a singular event and only my chapter director was so evil. I know several other cases in UBF Germany where marriages were cancelled by leaders, and I know at least one chapter director in Germany who is far worse than the one I had the luck to be abused by.

Tbh, I could really care less whether you think my stories are valid or biblica… Until your name is God, I could really care less what you think…

I should also tell you that I did not see my father for over 25 years, because of the great pain in my heart. But when I found out he had cancer, I went to the VA hospital with my wife and spent several marvelous hours over 3 weeks with him. Most of the time he was on morphine and he was incoherent, but I would not take back that time. God was very gracious to me and allowed me to finally forgive him and even share God’s love and what Christ did for him. In a moment of clarity, he told me he believed and he would see me in Heaven.

It is not uncommon for younger men to call someone who has cared for them and looked out for them, “Father.’ I went to UCLA and at one time their was a coach of the basketball team, who some consider the greatest college basketball coach of all time, his name is John Wooden. Most of his players considered him like a father. Does it really surprise you that I should consider someone like a father?

My father sexually abused one of my sisters. He physically abused all three of his children and my mother. He was an alcholic and died several years ago in a VA hospital. The only attendes at his funeral was me and my sister.

Does that answer your question?

It was sooo good to get away from here for a while. It’s amazing how nice it was to stay away. It was like a breath of freash air to me. I have decided that I will come by from time to time, but not often.

I was rereading some of the comments posted to me and one by Chris that I hadn’t taken the time to address and I would like to now.

Chris,

You shared that you weren’t “allowed” to miss any meetings. I was very curious about that statement. I am very curious as to what would have happened (or perhaps, better said, what do you think would have happened if you did miss any meetings?

ubf friend: I know just about all of UBF leaders including Joe Schaefer(ex-UBF).

me: Ah ok thanks. So why do you say Joe is “ex-ubf”? He has not left and is still a leader there.

ubf friend: Really? I thought he left and is attending another church. My mistake.

me: Yes really :)

Later we also received this humiliation training in a foreign land and our girls too in another foreign country. That’s when I realize that UBF has a problem. Something is wrong here. But I don’t believe it is hopeless. There is still a lot of good in this ministry. I’ve seen so many miracles happened in people lives through the gospel in UBF. I believe it is the work of the Holy Spirit. I pray for our ministry and for all of us (including current UBF leaders) to repent so that the time of renewal may come.

You and I sometimes speak of UBFriends and UBF almost as if they are separate entities. But, for better or worse, they are joined at the hip. UBFriends is what it is, in large part, because UBF is what it is. Just as your power to change the culture of UBF is severely limited (regulations and policies can’t do it), so my ability to shape the culture of UBFriends is limited. As an admin, I could delete comments that I think are unhelpful. But that would probably make it worse. The only things that I can really do are to express myself and allow others to push back when they feel it is warranted, and then listen carefully to their pushback.

The same process that I believe would make UBF a better place — the process of careful ethnographic listening — would also make UBFriends a better place. Some of that is going on. But it’s hard to do. I’m trying.

Thanks for accepting my poke at UBFriends. UBF has serious issues and I am glad that we can honestly, openly and transparently discuss them here. Not only that, we can hopefully work through practical solutions to those problems. It could be that to a lesser extent (3+ years of existence versus 50+ years) UBFriends may also have areas in need of improvement.

Maybe some in UBF don’t want to allow indigenous leaders to act indigenous, or be themselves. And we have lots of evidence to that effect. This has created a lot of problems and hurt. But we also have to let non-indigenous people be themselves as well. Yes, most of the leadership in UBF is non-indigenous. This is an issue that I in particular really care about and am quite vocal about. So the onus is clearly on missionaries to be incarnational- more like the indigenous people they serve rather than vice versa. However, as much as they try, they can’t do it to your satisfaction or my satisfaction. When it comes down to it, they are still themselves. And we are all messy sinners.

My wife is originally from Korea. I love her very much. To a great extent she lets me be indigenous. So I watch football, eat hot dogs and crack corny jokes- among many other things. I also have no problem with her speaking Korean, eating Korean food and watching Korean dramas. But there is this wonderful place in the middle. Of course, Jesus is always with us. But those are the times when I really feel him with us. Do you know how cool it is for me to take her to a football game? Do you know how fun it is to go to Korean restaurant with her? It is really wonderful when we can have a conversation about things, understand each other and even agree with each other. It is most wonderful to worship together, pray together and serve others together. Sometimes she doesn’t communicate in ways that I immediately understand. Sometimes I may use idioms or nuance that she doesn’t understand. And we don’t agree sometimes. We accept that about each other in love and work on it from there.

Of course it is impossible for UBFriends to be like a marriage. But I believe the love of Christ is here. I think most if not all of the people here are Christians. That is great. So I very much appreciate you, Brian, Ben and others. I truly consider you my friends- I think you know that. So I read/listen carefully to what you all have to say. Yes, there are serious and sensitive problems that have impacted our lives in sometimes very detrimental ways. And it is possible that some need to be rebuked and/or dismissed and I am the biggest advocate of that in the cases that warrant it. But I for one in the midst of these conversations want to make more of an attempt to go into that middle place where Jesus is, trying to understand the other side and trying to better help the other side understand me.

Like you, I have been in UBF for more than three decades. But unlike you I do not yet know how to say and do the right things that missionaries like. Over the years, I have frequently expressed my honest opinions. I gave up trying to please them a long time ago. I remain the indigenous guy I am for better or for worse. But I have not given up loving them. While I express my opinions, I really want to hear the other side. And I want to give them as much of a chance as possible to speak, even in their own non-indigenous way- even when I hear the communication from the other side as a one way edict or an ad-hominem attack. I try not to respond in kind. And then I want them to hear me loud and clear when I speak. I try to make it clear that continued one way edicts and ad-hominen attacks, when/if they happen, will not make the ministry fruitful at all nor more indigenous.

In my opinion, the more we hear each other speak and give each of the opportunity to do so, the more trust is built up even though we may never agree. Then we can work on a solution, knowing that the solution depends part on us, part on trust of others and mostly on trust in Christ.

Yet, I have no pretense that I have all of the answers. I just don’t. May God help us and bless us, whether we are in UBF or not.

There were two instances where Korean UBF directors persuaded me to do illegal actions “for God’s glory”.

1) As everyone here already knows, I was persuaded to break into the house of James and Rebekah back in 1990, along with my friends.

2) When I was sent to Russia as a ubf short-term missionary, one of the Korean UBF directors there persuaded me to bribe the KGB to extend my visa so I could stay and attend the Moscow ubf conference.

I am ashamed to say that I let even my American sense of justice be disintegrated in order to “be a blessing” and to supposedly “live for God’s glory”.

Only former ubfers understand that they have never been like sons to ubf directors though for a long time they might think so.

In a healthy church there must not be any hint of such things. To be vulnerable is necessary in the church. But it is possible only when people are brothers. In father-son relationship the “son” has to be and demanded to be vulnerable especially through sogams and obedience training, and the “father” is never vulnerable and is not allowed to be such because of his status.

Again I would remind the words of SL himself. When someone called him “brother Lee” he prayed and understood that he was not a brother but a father even though there were people around him who were older. Actually he felt he was vulnerable at the moment and he didn’t want to and was afraid to be vulnerable. Since that moment the construction of the abusive authoritarian ubf system started. One father appeared in an organization and it ceased to be Christian and church-like.

Terry, this is exactly the point that my chapter director tried to teach me during the reform movement. We were not allowed to judge based on evidence, based on misbehavior and bad conduct, because he was God’s anointed anyway (or he “might be” in your line of argumentation). He taught us that even nice things could have an ugly smell (I have heard several such parables about things that smelled awful but were nice anyway during the reform movement).

I challenge this line of argumentation, it is really black magic thinking. The Bible is clear about this as well, e.g. when it explains that the fruit (evidence) shows the nature of the tree.

The other reason why I totally reject this idea is that there are not special anointed persons like Saul in new testimony times any more. There are just brothers under one shepherd, Jesus. There is no point in talking about special anointing of people any more. In new testament time, we are ordered to judge based on evidence and God’s word and our conscience and the Holy Spirit, not based on the authority of certain people or our perceived indebtedness to certain people.

Exactly. After my UBF experience, I read a lot of books about cults in general, and books about particular cults, mostly written by ex members. I was shocked to see the similarity between UBF and these cults, and particularly the similarity between the ways SL operated and these cults leaders operated.

What you are trying to imply (and I remember my chapter directory tried to do this as well) is that we are not allowed to judge by evidence, but that there is a “hidden spiritual reality” according to which SL was God’s annointed anyway, no matter what he did. Sorry, but I don’t believe this anymore. It is mythical thinking and superstitiousness, the same kind of superstitiousness that SL himself instilled into others. I already posted the example where he claimed in a Sunday message that he (SL) was the “commander” and that to obey or not to obey him determines your fate, and gave examples where people experienced accidents and bad luck or even death when they disobeyed. I really stopped believing such garbage, and started to judge based on evidence instead.

“I’ve also been emotionally abusive to others. So I am unqualified to judge anyone of being abusive.”

I believe everybody has been emotionally abusive ot others at times and that includes me. With your argumentation, nobody would be allowed to talk about spiritual abuse. Again, this is a line of argument which I refuse.

I dropped my stone a long time ago… Very honestly, if people were to look closely at my life, they may very well say, ‘He is not one of God’s chosen’, but they would be wrong, and I know it… I’m God’s chosen, not because of what I’ve done or how well I have performed, or lived a Godly life, it isn’t because of any of those things. And I don’t have to tell you Joe why that is the case, because you Joe already know why its true… Just as much as I know its true of you…

“No real meaningful discourse is taking place,…”

Then why don’t you participate in a real discussion? After you asked your question, and I answered it, I asked several questions back, but you didn’t answer any of them. That’s not the way meaningful discourse can happen.

“‘Dislikes’ and their comments sliced and spliced and criticized to reinforce cherished ideas and views…”

That’s absolutely not true. I went into your line of argumentation and explained exactly why I don’t agree. That’s how meaningful discourse happens. What else should I do in your view? Just press “like” and that’s all? Or just give a sweeping “dislike”? When I go into your arguments, you interpret it as “slicing and splicing”, but at the same time you say “no real meaningful discourse is taking place”. We seem to have very different views on what “meaningful discourse” is.

“I see it here and even Chris recently wanted to correct me on my doctrine, as though he is the repository of all doctrinal correctness, just because he reads the Bible… I’m a little too old for that nonsense…”

What do you want to say? The Bible is nonsense? Or my interpretation of the Bible is nonsense? Then please show me where my interpretation is wrong. I do not think I’m a repository of doctrinal correctness, and I’m willing to let anybody correct my views. Or do you want to say discussions about the Bible are nonsense? Then why are in a group that focuses on Bible study? Is it wrong to measure UBF against the Bible? What exactly is “nonsense” here?

“Actually, I didn’t respond to any of them, because there was nothing to say… It wasn’t going to go anywhere…”

It definitely was going somewhere. But maybe it just wasn’t going into the direction you liked?

“Tbh, I do have my own idea what it means to be an ‘elder’, it means I’m old… :-) It means it is not my time any longer to make ‘decisions’, its my time to make friends and bring peace and unity…”

The role of an elder in a church is also to make friends and bring peace and unity. Still, the word “elder” has particular meaning in the Bible, it is an office that church members either have or you don’t. I they have it, they should take it seriously. You should be clear about whether you’re an elder or not.

“I learned that if you bring two people in a room, you are going to have two different opinions on just about everything. Who is right and who is wrong? At the time, I always thought I was right… But am I really?”

Terry, there are things which are disputable. I too have become more tolerant of other views. However, there are views that are simply not acceptable, things that are simply wrong, not matter how you twists and turn them. Among them are several of the things that SL did as a leader. They were simply wrong. All we want to see is that UBF leadership publicly admits they were wrong instead of wriggling like an eel when pressured to make a statement. The most I could get out of James Kim was “some see it so, other see it so.” No, sorry, abuse is abuse. People have different opinions on everything, but not all opinions are legitimate. If everything is equally valid, there is no point in having discussions.

Terry, this is an intrinsic problem with like/dislike buttons. For instance, I like the fact that you participate in the discussion, that you share openly, and I also like some of what you write. But when I press “like” I feel I would also condone and approve some of the arguments and statements you make, which are really not valid in my opinion. So I think a “like/dislike” button is totally inappropriate in such situations.

I’m already having problems choosing between like or dislike when my sister posts she has headache. Should I press like to express I like her and feel with her or should I press dislike to express the fact that I don’t like her to have headaches?

I’m feeling in a similar conflict when I have to click like or dislike for your comments.

I mean, 1 – Saul was literally annointed as a king. That’s why he was God’s annointed. Who annointed SL? Was he annointed as a king, a prophet, a priest or what? I personally agree with his own testimony that he was “demon-possessed” (at least at times) and what he did (including ordering abortions) characterizes him as a “typical cult leader”.

2 – You compare your family relations with that in the community. It is wrong and not biblical. Your story can be helpful for family relations grow but it has nothing to do with the church relationships. There must not be any “fathers” in a church! And you shouldn’t consider anyone as ungrateful immature children in a church. Only fathers are fathers (who can make mistakes) and only children can be ungrateful immature children. In a healthy church there is brotherhood. (A story of that kind would fit better in the discussion). And if you bring forth a story about your family relationship then it would be better to compare it with the relationship of God-Christian, not father-like Christian – child-like Christian (this would actually be cult-like abusive leader – deceited young disciple).

After leaving ubf I joined a Baptist church along with my family and some of my former “sheep”. We were baptized and accepted into the community. At that very moment the pastor told us that we should not think we are just newly accepted persons who are to take backseats and do nothing for there are many “older” brothers and sisters. He said about complete equality in the church, about brotherhood. Next Sunday we participated in a church members meeting where we discussed and made decisions of what to do with an “older” brother who fell into sin. Yes, I can say we are members of the church now. There was nothing of the kind in ubf for all my 17 years there. In ubf I was not permitted to make decisions about my family and my personal part of life.

When you say that sogam-sharers asked you how they should do that – for me it is a bad sign. They are not your brothers and sisters, they seem to be your younger subordinates (I like the way you acted but the system is bad)

And a couple of things about your director buying a car for you. I want to ask, have you tithed in ubf? If yes then do you know how it was spent? Again a fresh example from my church. There are tithes and there is a group of people who do the counting and decide how and where and when to spent the money (the pastor is not in the group). As a member I personally am able to see how the church deals with offerings. I know nothing about all the offerings in ubf, in my former chapter, though I spent there 17 years, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. So in this sense ubf is also cultish.

And is it OK that I write in English on this website? Maybe Koreans should write in Korean and Russians should write in Russian? I mean that Korean missionaries MUST speak American while in the US, Terry. And if they speak American but speak for too long, they speak Korean actually. There must not be any life-long missionaries-leaders in a church for they would enavitably preach their own culture. Good missionaries should pray for raising indegenious leaders and then let them speak their native language to preach the gospel to native people. Even if IK is SO good in shepherding (hopefully not lording over) he is really bad if he is a leader in the chapter outside Korea. This is an abuse no matter how good his intentions and actions might be.

I agree that there are dynamics on this website that cause people who are more sympathetic to the ubf community to feel unwelcome, to feel that if they comment here, that they will get pounced upon. It’s something that I hope will improve in the future. Participating in this discussion makes one vulnerable in many ways. Hence there are quite a few anonymous commenters. (Anonymous comments are actually against our policy, but we haven’t taken any measures to enforce it.)

I do hope that this online community becomes warmer and more welcoming.

And I also believe this: a big reason why many ubf members and leaders feel unwelcome here is that they are accustomed to discussing ministry matters only in safe, closed-door settings where the group dynamics and flow of information can be carefully controlled. They have never learned how to deal with sensitive issues and conflicts in a modern western cultural context, where people speak very directly to one another without fear of reprisal. (The online exchanges between us and JamesK have made that painfully clear.) Here at UBFriends, ubf leaders would be at a huge disadvantage,like fish out of water. They would feel weak, tongue-tied and oppressed. Just as I would have no clue how to discuss these matters at a Chicago elders meeting without them believing that I am highly immature and offensive — and, in fact, I don’t think that I can actually be myself anymore without offending them now — they would experience similar things if they engaged in discussion on UBFriends. Having survived for three decades in UBF, I am fully aware of how to play the game. I know how to say and do things that missionaries like, in the way that they like. However, I have firmly decided not to do that anymore — not for my sake, but for theirs. If they want to raise indigenous leaders, they need to allow indigenous leaders to be indigenous.

Sorry, I was not attempting to define groupthink, just trying to articulate a way to encourage even more constructive participation discussion about important issues. Of course, I could be wrong as I am often.

You have put your finger on something which is really, really central to the strong emotions and strong anti-ubf language appearing on this website. The people who comment here frequently are not strangers. They were highly committed to the ubf community and trusted their leaders deeply. Somehow, that trust was broken. Some ubf leaders will say that it was they (the disciples) who broke the trust. Once upon a time, I said that too. But after listening to these stories — and bringing them up with leaders in private — I was rebuffed. What I saw, again and again, was leaders refusing to make themselves vulnerable. I saw an organization refusing to make itself vulnerable. That lack of vulnerability, more than anything else, drove a wedge between us and made it very hard to work through these issues. And that lack of vulnerability, more than anything else, is what caused many of the people who comment here to leave the ubf community.

I believe that Christians need to make themselves vulnerable. Christian leaders and organizations need to make themselves vulnerable. It is the way of Jesus, the way of the cross. It is the beginning of Christian love.

Thanks again.

My choice of words may not have been the best. I used the term Group Think because of being a political science major and its a term used in the field. That, and I’m a lazy thinker… :-D I would agree with you that Group Think may not be the best way to describe what is going on here, and I agree there is some trends to like thinking, but it wouldnt surprise me to find it. I think I do it all the time in my everyday life. I like to spend time with people who see things the way I do, and try to avoid people who I don’t see eye to eye with… :-)

I’m glad you’re here, because you make me think also and not be so sloppy in my thinking… Same with Brian… :-)

Guys have a good nite. I’m tired. I’ve spent waaaaaay too much time here. And I have revealed just how big a blowhard and know it all I really am… :-) Honestly, I enjoyed the discussion. I’m going to step away for a while and recharge my batteries and will come back at a later time. I’d really like to ask, if anyone has seen the movie ‘Mission’ (just watched it last night) with Robert Di Nero and Jeremy Irons, which of them was correct in the way they ended up helping the Indians? I’m very curious to hear what you guys think. :-) Good nite and God bless! :-)

What I meant by being honest, is this… In your blog and a little here you basically said, your life in UBF has been nothing but darkness (I know I’m completely paraphrasing and I’m sure completely misrepresenting you), but today you shared that much of what I’ve experienced you also have experienced. I think that the both of these comments is really more what happened in your time in UBF. That would be a much more ‘honest’ assessment, that UBF has had a positive and negative impact in your life. It was because you shared this that I can see that you are being more honest. Nothing is completely evil or wrong and nothing is Red Wine and Roses either… If this website is going to resonate with others, it will have to be able to do both… See UBF’s great points, what good it did for their lives and not only see it as a cult organization, that only abuses people, because it’s not an either/or, IMHO…

I want to share with you, about my dog, Kuma (it means Bear, in Japanese). He looks like a bear. I’ve had many dogs when I was growing up, but I have to say Kuma is really the best dog I’ve ever had. He is a big derp (I learned that word from my sons… :-D. I think it means goofy…) He is a St. Weiler. One of the brothers who lives below us in the basement of our home, found him on the side of the freeway, and he pulled over and he jumped into his car). He gave him to us. We did a DNA test and found out he is 50% St. Bernard and 50% Rottweiler. But he’s 100% derp… :-D We’ve only had him 4 months or so, not very long. But it’s very interesting to me to see him at the dog park and how he interacts with the other dogs. Kuma is a BIG dog, about 104 lbs. He’s not overly aggressive and not looking to fight other dogs, but interestingly, there are some dog types that he doesn’t seem to get along with well, including Doberman’s, Pit Bulls, Huskies, and other dogs that I call Alpha breed’s (including Kuma). Everytime, I go to the dog park and I encounter one of these breeds, especially males, invariably their is an altercation. But like a said, Kuma is BIG, but he is a derp, and invariably even though he wants to be the BIG dog, in reality most of the time the other dogs are more Alpha than he is. ;-D So for the most part I avoid putting him in the fenced off area when I come across these types of dogs.

But there is also another dog owner who has a lab mix, named Keena. It is a female. Keena is very interesting to me. She is a very submissive dog. Tbh, there is no dog I’ve run across that is more submissive than Keena. I mean she literally, rolls on her back and exposes her underside to every dog she meets. Strangely, she is NEVER in an altercation with any other dogs… When I see Keena, I know that Kuma and her will be just fine together. When Keena rolls on her back and exposes the most vulnerable part of her to him, strangely Kuma does not attack, but sniffs her for a sec and then goes about his business. Sometimes Keena wants his attention so she chases him and licks his mouth and plants herself in front of him and rolls over again. And the whole cycle repeats, again and again. Very strange… :-)

But, it made me think about what brings about peace and what brings about altercations… I realized that Keena is so much smarter than me… I’ve always been the Alpha type guy. But I found I had lots of altercations with people. And by some of my posts here, I’m sure you can tell, that I still bear my teeth from time to time. But what I learned from Keena is that she makes herself completely VULNERABLE. And it is because of this that she strangely never gets in a fight. Go figure… lol…

The real reason that I trust you Joe, is because you have made yourself vulnerable to me. You have shared your own very real weaknesses. I believe that real dialogue will be acheived when more people here would be honest about themselves and stop only criticizing others and UBF only.

I really believe that people intrinsically know and it resonates with them when there is a vulnerability that can be seen. All the critiques that have been shared here, may very well be true. But it wont resonate with people, because so little vulnerability on those who make such accusations is revealed about themselves.

Tbh, this is one of the great heritages I got from UBF that I absolutely cherish. They taught me through testimony writing to be honest and vulnerable and stop acting like I know everything. Of course, its not an end all be all, either, but it was a marvelous tool for me to be honest. Before, then I NEVER was honest about myself, nor did I ever critically look at myself. But testimony writing allowed me to learn such a wonderful lesson and for that I am eternally grateful. I get it when it was shared that Samuel Lee would ‘weigh’ the testimony’s to decide who was being the most honest. But that doesn’t mean that testimony writing is a bad thing. I think it can be absused, just like my computer can be used for this or for looking at porn… I think that is a much more honest assessment than just saying that testimony writing is a tool to control people.

The same can be said about the critique of UBF. You (collectively) have been spot on IMHO in many, many areas, but I think in some ways, the critique has been unfair. And it has appeared to me that recently that the critique has become even downright ugly… I thought the reason is that because there was so little dialogue, that the way way to get the attention was to just lay down more accusations in a more critical way. But IMHO, that has only alienated you and hasn’t resonated with many.

Be real, be honest, be vulnerable…

You know at the ISBC, I was asked to pray and help with the life testimony sharers for the European group. Do you want me to tell you what we did? Well, I’m going to tell you anyways… :-D I told them, “Let’s pray!” Then I listened to their testimony’s and after the first person shared his, he asked me how he should share it. I thought it was very cute, that he would ask me such a question. So I told him, “Be real. You’re not giving a performance. Aren’t you sharing genuinely what God has done in your life? Well then, be honest and be real and be genuine and let God take care of the rest.” He asked me should he raise his hand in a sweeping gesture, like he had seen so many times before. And I told him, only if he really felt like he wanted to. And then I laughed to myself. And then I listened to the other testimonies and it didn’t take all that long. And we had more time, so I began to talk about them and their lives, what they shared, I could inquire about more about some of the things they were only briefly sharing in their testimony’s. I got to learn a little more about them. Then we talked some more about nothing in particular and then the room was needed so we all prayed one sec and went on our way… Later, that night when the first student shared, he kept his head down the whole time he delivered it. So I went to the back and pointed that out to the remaining sharers and said, “It’s alright if you do the same thing, but maybe it looks better if you occasionally look up and people can see your face.” And then I smiled to them. They got the point… I share this because, that is what happened… That is not the way things used to be done, but that is the way it happened this time around… Things are changing… Maybe not the way people would like to see, maybe not as ‘earth’ shattering or ‘deeply’ as some might like to see, but it is real change. There are changes going on, and more are on the way… Like I said, God is in the midst of spring cleaning in our ministry… :-)

I’ve always been honest with you Terry. I don’t hide anything. I am an open book. I am not trying to persuade anybody or even make people leave ubf. I only want people to make up their own mind, which you obviously do :)

I share my mind and my reactions, without filtering them much. I respect you because you have the gonads to share here. Most ubf people don’t.

I find this website to be highly unpredictable and volatile. I never know what to expect. Sure, you can count on me and some former members to never accept praise of ubf. But besides that, what is so predictable?

“Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people, in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an incorrect or deviant decision-making outcome. Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative ideas or viewpoints, and by isolating themselves from outside influences.”

I do value the work on this site and even “like” it sometimes, but would hope that such comparisons are not necessary. If group think is considered a problem at ubf.org then hopefully anything like it is not justified here.

Trust me I am already speaking to them, through this website. They may not participate, but I have a strong hunch they are reading… There is a reason I have put my full name on the board… Tbh, I wasn’t going to go to any more staff conferences, no reason to do so. But now that you ask me to speak to them, I will go and I will share with them, they may not listen, they may ‘fire’ me, but that’s ok… They first have to hire me… :-D. And even if they don’t, I won’t hold it against them… I will continue serving God in the capacity God has given to me, to the best of my ability and very honestly and gratefully, in the way that my ‘Korean’ fathers taught me… I will go and share the the Life Giving Gospel to those around me… :-)

Brian,

I really do love you. I mean that. :-). You are feisty… Never expected that… Haha…

Thanks for taking the time to write what you did. In my opinion, you are largely correct about the group think of this online community. I understand the reasons for it. Yet that makes it boring and predictable too often- discussions often go down the same tracks especially for people who want to share something not so negative. It drives away people who want to sincerely share other views about important issues in a friendly, respectful way.

May God bless you and your family.

Only now, will I do what you ask of me… Because you are being honest, honest with yourself and honest with me… Now I have reason to say something… I promise you that I will speak to our Korean ‘fathers’…

It’s interesting that you perceive this website as having an environment of groupthink, that you see it as unwelcoming and potentially oppressive. That is your honest assessment. That is how people here have made you feel, and I am taking note of that.

Your observation is actually quite deep. The missiologist Lesslie Newbigin wrote about this. He said that human beings by nature all underestimate how much we oppress one another. Many movements in politics and in the church are born from a genuine desire to help the underdog, to free the captives, to stop the oppressors. That is a healthy, godly desire which is consistent with God’s heart. But once the tables are turned, once the oppressors lose their power, the oppressed people under them can so easily turn around and become oppressors themselves. In fact, the whole idea of calling certain people oppressed and other people oppressors needs to be constantly examined, because in reality each person is at times oppressed and at other times acting like an oppressor. In Jesus’ kingdom, of which the church should be a foretaste, the oppressor and the oppressed can both be present and in communion with one another, which is very hard to accept.

Terry, please continue to share your stories and give us the opportunity to improve the way we interact with one another on this website in the midst of disagreement. Displaying love and respect in the midst of disagreement is one of the hardest things we can ever do in life, and it is one of the most precious and rare gifts that we can give to one another. I have already witnessed visible improvement on this website over the last few days, and I hope the trend continues. You have done all of us an important service by coming here, and I’m glad that you are reading and commenting.

Most of us former members didn’t leave because of abuse, we left because our “fathers” dismissed us and refused to do any of the things you have learned. Again I would say, Terry, that your narratives would be excellent for senior Koreans in ubf to listen to. Will they finally listen?

I want to share my own experience with my oldest son, Peter. The one who sings praises of me… There was a time, not too long ago, where him and I had real knock down fights. And it had to do with the changing of our relationship dynamic. You see, when he was a boy, our dynamic was one where I told him what to do and he did it… I really liked that dynamic… :-D. I was the father and knew more and knew better. And he listened and occasionally made mistakes and I helped clean them up for him. Like I said, I really liked that ‘time’ or ‘chapter’ in our lives. But then, he went and did a horrible thing. He grew up… And our relationship dynamic began to change with it… The problem was, both him and I were too immature to know how to properly handle this change. Very honestly, I thought he was rebellious, unwise, disrespectful and ungrateful to me as his father. I couldn’t understand why he couldn’t see that I had only his best interest in mind, and a lot more wisdom to see where his ‘choices’ were leading him. I couldn’t understand why he couldn’t see how much I had done for him and how much he should in great enthusiasm embrace all my words to him. This made me soooooo angry and even hatred and violence arose within me. I must shamefully confess I remember clearly thinking, ‘I hate this ungrateful son of mine! I’ll never talk to him again!’. Obviously, as can be seen, I really botched things up badly. And I almost ruined my son, and our relationship… But it cut both ways, my son was growing up and was learning to be an independent young man, but he really didn’t know what that meant either. He thought being independent meant asserting his independence by being rude and disrespectful and even arrogant. He completely dismissed all that I had done for him. And for all these things he was as guilty as I was. Like I said, we both were very immature. Just as I was ruining him and our relationship, he had his part to play in it going south as well…

I will say, that this was a very dark and unpleasant time in my life, but one that I would never ask God to have taken from me. Only now in hindsight do I realize just what a wonderful thing God was doing by leading me down that path. It was only for my complete good and for His complete glory… Our God is sooo good to us!!! I shared my sons letter to all of you for a shrewd reason… To show you that our relationship has been completely restored. It is the testimony of God’s redemptive work in two sinners lives.

I share my son and my story for two reasons: I’m sure there has been some very unpleasant things between students and Korean coworkers. And I’m sure there has been real abuse, perhaps as bad as the abuse I laid upon my own son, but maybe it was not done for the reasons presented here… Perhaps, it was a strange way to show their love… I know that sounds stupid, but I really mean it… Perhaps, the relationship dynamic was changing and neither side has handled it as well as they should have, but does that mean UBF is really an evil entity??? Are your attempts at dialogue evil? No. Organizations aren’t evil, people are… Including me… And as long as organizations have people in them, they are going to be unhealthy… I would imagine that some of my sentiments towards my son, resonate with missionaries who have given a great deal and gave a high cost for young American students. Perhaps, they thought very much like I did towards my son. At the same time it is completely understandable to me why my son ‘rebelled’ or ‘broke windows’, it was because I didn’t listen… At times he was disrespectful and ought not to have been, but all the same it is understandable why, just as understandable to me as my actions were to him (it doesn’t mean to excuse them, but to understand why).

I also share it to show that something good can come out. UBF is not in a crisis, IMHO, but I certainly think it is going through a really good spring cleaning by God… :-). The only thing that may be left is the stump of a Terebinth tree, but there will be something left, I know so, because I’m part of that stump… :-).

God is always changing and doing a new thing. He speaks and resonates to His people, He always does and always will… If we chose to be a part of it, He will gladly take our hand, if we choose to be old wineskins, then all our precious wine we hold near and ear to us will spill wasted to the ground, instead of being drank and enjoyed by others…

My son and I were able to forgive one another and to be honest to one another. We were willing to listen and be critiqued and make ourselves vulnerable to one another. I’ve learned to trust him and allow him to make his decisions, now matter how bad I may think they are. Now does that mean, he still at times doesn’t drive me crazy with his decisions?
Sometimes, it takes everything in me to bite my tongue and sometimes I can’t stand it and we have verbal arguments. But we are growing to be real good friends… :-). And for that I am eternally grateful and thankful to God!!!

By older, I mean… That my sons can beat me at basketball!!! I really hate that!!! :-) Please don’t ask me what I mean by this. For those who understand, there is no need to explain, to those who don’t understand, no amount of explaining will do…

Very insightful observations. But not completely correct. I do believe that Los Angeles UBF is different from other chapters. I do believe that distance played a role. I also believe that Msn. Isaac’s pastoring over us, made it that way also. I know personally that I had very little interaction with other chapters. The little I did have was only with Chicago and Toledo. Only a couple of years ago did I get the opportunity to Washington. There was no diabolical intent to keep me from these other chapters, I was poor, and had no reason to travel across the nation to visit. Anyways I got to meet people from other chapters every two years anyways.

I really see each chapter and each house as an individual oasis of God’s dominion on earth. I am very honestly thankful to Msn. Samuel Lee, because he challenged young Korean students to share the Gospel with others. And one of them, Msn. Monica, who I call mom, was inspired to do so and she came to America, at great cost to her and her family and shared God’s love to me, until my eyes could be opened. For that I am forever indebted and I will never forget it. I know for absolute fact that my life, prior to meeting Monica, was heading to a tragic and sorrowful oblivion.

Do I have an interest in UBF? Of course, it is here that I met God. Is UBF, the end all, be all? Of course not. Do I care about about the
That is why I brought up the story of the men of Jabesh Gilead, who went and retrieved Saul’s body because they never forgot what he had done for them. I AM the men of Jabesh Gilead, if not for Samuel Lee, ‘burning with anger’ and even ‘threatening the people of Israel (korean students) to be chopped up into a stack of BBQ ribs, if they didn’t follow him to go and rescue their brothers of Jabesh Gilead, I would have certainly been ‘blind in one eye’.

Do I care what happens to UBF? Of course, it is here that I met God. Do I believe that UBF, is the end all, be all? Of course not. Do I think God is removing dead branches and bursting old wineskins? Yes, I do. Have I been pruned and burst, personally? Yes. It is because of my oldest son, that i learned just how set in my ways i am and how violent I’ve been willing to become to protect ‘my way’. To my oldest son, I also am eternally grateful and indebdted to. Perhaps, I’m a cult leader of my home? Do I think UBF is in a ‘crisis’? No. I don’t think there are any ‘crisis’ in God’s work. Is it changing? Of course. For the better? I think so. Because I trust God. :-). Do I think this group here at UBF Friends is a part of God’s work? Yes, I do. But I also honestly believe that, and this I really want to emphasize and highlight… Your remedy is becoming a poison all it’s own… And i really do believe that… I was a political, science major, and I remember looking at the life of Fidel Castro. As a young man, he honestly was bothered by the corruption of the Batista government and he saw the great suffering of the people under Batista. He wanted to make a better Cuba for the people. But, strangely and ironically he made Cuba a worse living hell in some ways for the people, even though that was not his intent at all. I can see that UBF friends could very well be headed in such a direction…

I use the whole matter of calling Samuel Lee a ‘cult leader’ as a case study in that… It was shared here that after careful analysis Samuel Lee had all the ‘traits’ and characteristics of a ‘cult leader’. It was said that Samuel Lee was not anointed by God. But how do you know that for sure? Because the ‘evidence’ reveals it to be so? I will tell you if the Bible didnt’ teach me that Saul was God’s anointed, if I had lived in his time and under his rule, I would certainly not came to that conclusion at all… I would have thought he was a ‘murdering psychopath’, because after careful analysis, that’s what it appears he is… I would NEVER on my own have come to the conclusion he was God’s Chosen… That is being very honest… The ONLY way I know he was, is because the Bible says so and David treated him as such… My point is simple, Samuel Lee may have a litany of abuses, but you don’t know whether he was God’s anointed or not, just be the ‘evidence’. To be really honest, I have been extremely abusive, especially to my oldest son (I’m talking physically). I’ve also been emotionally abusive to others. So I am unqualified to judge anyone of being abusive. I dropped my stone a long time ago… Very honestly, if people were to look closely at my life, they may very well say, ‘He is not one of God’s chosen’, but they would be wrong, and I know it… I’m God’s chosen, not because of what I’ve done or how well I have performed, or lived a Godly life, it isn’t because of any of those things. And I don’t have to tell you Joe why that is the case, because you Joe already know why its true… Just as much as I know its true of you…

I can also point to another reason why I see UBF Friends trending in a very unhealthy direction. The little ‘Like’, ‘Dislike’ thumbs reveal a great deal. I found it very enlightening that the comments where I shared some critical comment that I got more ‘Dislikes’ than ‘Likes’. But comments where I ‘kissed the pope’s ring’, by giving compliments to others I received more ‘Likes’ than ‘Dislikes’. This tells me that there is a great deal of ‘Group Think’ going on here… I know that you created this site for honest and genuine dialogue and discussion. But in reality it has turned into a very insular and small group of like minded people, who applaud one another. No real meaningful discourse is taking place, IMHO… There is very little ‘moderating’ or ‘leavening’ of the thoughts and ideas shared here… Very honestly, those who have opinions or views different than those the majority hold here are greeted with anonymous ‘Dislikes’ and their comments sliced and spliced and criticized to reinforce cherished ideas and views… Recently, not to long ago someone made a goodbye comment and left becasue he felt the site was becoming ‘unpleasant’ (I cant remember exactly what they said, nor do i want to hunt it down) or something to that nature. Basically, I think he wanted to have a genuine discourse, but was greeted with ‘facts’ and ‘analysis’.

I see it here and even Chris recently wanted to correct me on my doctrine, as though he is the repository of all doctrinal correctness, just because he reads the Bible… I’m a little too old for that nonsense… I also gave a chance for a little meaningful discussion about a very simple question, and it went no where… It was used to again regurgitate the same old tired comments, instead of HONESTLY thinking about why someone did what they did, without feeling threatened or where the conversation might lead… Of course there was some comments that were made that made some attempt to think about it, but there were several comments that were so shallow and meaningless to not even bother responding to… Actually, I didn’t respond to any of them, because there was nothing to say… It wasn’t going to go anywhere…

As far as the picture you paint of me, I would like to think that I’m not just living my life quietly and to enjoy the small world I have. Of course, what you say is true. I do enjoy fully the blessings my Father in Heaven has given to me. He wants me to. :-) But I’d like to think that I have an impact on others and that I actively seek to be impactful in others lives. Tbh, I do have my own idea what it means to be an ‘elder’, it means I’m old… :-) It means it is not my time any longer to make ‘decisions’, its my time to make friends and bring peace and unity… At one time I thought making ‘decisions’, ‘and what those decisions were’ was a very important matter, but honestly and strangely, I know longer feel that is true. I thought that me being a part of the ‘decision making process’ was very important, but now I don’t. I learned that if you bring two people in a room, you are going to have two different opinions on just about everything. Who is right and who is wrong? At the time, I always thought I was right… But am I really? For a time I thought that if I could just explain it a little better or if they understood what I was really trying to say, they would obviously see how correct I am! And I don’t know what happened, but at some point I realized that my fellow decision makers were not my enemy and their thoughts were just as honest and earnest as mine were. I knew they loved God and wanted to serve Him in the best possible way they thought, even if my views were different. And then I realized, wow, our ministry is in good hands. They dont even need my input. I just need to support them fully. I don’t always agree, nor think they are making the best decision, but I realized it really doesn’t matter. We are one, and that matters a great deal… Tbh, I believe I am doing my ‘job’ as an ‘elder’ by even coming here on UBF Friends, and reaching out and being honest and sincere, and genuine and making friends and offering unity and peace. I’m not sure that others in the ministry think so or would agree with me, but…

MEH….

If they don’t like it, they can fire me… But first they will have to hire me… :-)

I’m an ‘elder’ not because I was chosen by men, I’m an ‘elder’ because I’m older… :-)

I have never heard of LA UBF while I was in UBF. The headquarters is in Chicago, the GD sits in Chicago, the international conferences are always on the east coast. Chicago is the mainstream of UBF, not LA.

And I can imagine what Joe-2005 would think and say if he encountered articles and comments by Joe-2013.

If I could go back in time and give one message to Joe-2005, it would be this: “Don’t be so sure of yourself. Don’t state your opinions today as if they are absolute, objective truth. Because your perspectives are going to change dramatically over the next decade.”

It’s sobering to think how different my perspectives might be one or two decades from now. I hope they are different. I hope that God continues to transform me in radical ways.

…

You haven’t been moved until you’ve read big bear’s first book recounting SZ’s love, gentleness, kindness, respect, etc.

Terry I think you should pull your head out of the sand and try to help those around you. Many are trapped under the layers of problems in the UBF system. They need real help, not glory stories.

Accurate/Proper Hermeneutics:
1. Literal Interpretation (no hidden meanings)
2. Historical Context (geographical, cultural conditions, customs)
3. Grammatical Principle (pronouns, word meaning)
4. Synthesis Principle (Scripture interprets scripture)
5. Practical Principle (implication not application)

This is taken out from one of John MacArthur’s messages. I want to point out #5. He said that he rather give people implications of Bible passages and leave the application part to the Holy Spirit! In UBF, the director/pastor/bible teacher tell you what you should or should not expect! Is that biblical? Abraham left his fathers household so you should too! Isaac married Rebeca by faith so you must marry by faith! Again this list can go on. Praising UBF while ignoring these serious issues isn’t going to help UBF!

My experience in UBF matched a lot of what Terry mentions. I have many good memories. I was blessed and helped a lot. But here is where our stories part ways: I began sharing my honest feelings about a few things and asking about the problems my friends were facing. That caused all hell to break loose.

I’m glad that happened becuase then my eyes were opened to see how many problems there are with the UBF system itself. Most of the severe spiritual abuses happened to me during the process of leaving because I was “sticking my nose into too many places”. All UBF people I talked to (apart from you and Joe) wanted me to “mind my own business and stay quiet in Detroit”, at least initially.

When my eyes were opened through the blatant shunning process that occurs when someone wants to leave UBF, I could begin to see how deelpy flawed and shallow the UBF system really is, and how enslaved my mind had become, and most of all, I could see more clearly to begin to re-capture my own life narrative (which includes me being a Christian before any contact with UBF).

Then I could also see the immense pain and suffering the UBF machine has caused, and bigbear is a prime example of such suffering.

I have almost no input as to what UBF should become, but I am fully persuaded that Christ who lives in me wants me to be a living STOP sign to end the hamster wheel pattern of controlling people’s live and shredding good families to pieces. Anyone, incluidng Terry, can see that such things have happened. I do care. I will speak out.

I really wish we could rise above the “good experience/bad experience” false dichotomy. We need to talk about the system itself which fosters many kinds of abuses.

I remember that evening like it was yesterday. It was at that time that we became brothers. You so remind me of my own son named Joshua. He is the youngest, but he is a boy of kindness and gentleness, like his mother. I truly do love you like a younger brother. I hope all is well with you and your family.

I believe that Terry experienced the Gospel/Good news of God’s Grace (Ac 20:24) from IK from the beginning of his UBF life till the present time—-while others who experienced otherwise in UBF, experienced the Gospel at first (which led them to commit to UBF), but which then eventually became Law, and Mission, and work (harder), and sacrifice (more), and just obey, in clearly authoritarian and abusive ways that violated and trampled on each person and each family’s personal boundaries.

Thanks for your feedback.

The UBF Ethics Committee is made up of 4 UBF people and a non-UBF consultant.

Of the UBF people, two are Korean missionaries and two are non-Koreans. Two are from Chicago and two are from outside Chicago.

…

I would hope this is stated and elaborated upon in the Code of Ethics.

This may have been asked and answered before, but can I ask who is on the Ethics Committee? I don’t need actual identities but just the make-up of the committee, i.e., number of people, what chapters they’re from, Korean/non-Korean, UBF/non-UBF.

Terry, you made me feel so much like your brother during that time. I still feel that way. You have a singular ability in that area among all the UBF people I’ve met. I deeply remember that quality about you. It moved my heart so deeply.

We may be a bit cut-throat around here on UBFriends, but we never have forgotten the deep love we shared with our brothers. It is this love that moves us to speak out, sometimes a bit too loudly perhaps or aggressively, but none the less love.

And it sounds to me that you have a beautiful loving ministry in your home. Praise the Lord! May you be all-the-more encouraged and strengthened to continue in it and show a good example of a healthy family and ministry.

UBF in Los Angeles has always had a very different look and feel from other chapters. It is partly a reflection of the fact that LA and the West Coast have a unique culture different from other parts of the United States. One of the big challenges that the LA director has faced over the years is how to preserve that special LA-ness of his chapter in spite of the continual influx of missionaries from Korea. They came to LA in droves, bringing strong ideas of how ministry is supposed to be. Without strong direction and intervention and resistance by the chapter director, LA UBF would have quickly lost all of its indigenous flavor and become a Korean immigrant church or an outpost of Korea UBF. The fact that it did not is a testament to how hard IK worked. I do not always agree with IK. Sometimes I don’t understand him. But I do respect him. And he has been personally kind to me.

Terry’s account of IK’s love, gentleness, kindness and respect for him is also quite moving, touching and really quite lovely. Sadly, this has not been the norm and experience of others who have shared here. Maybe it was when “sheep” first came to UBF. But sadly, as expressed by many, later it changed into more and more control and manipulation, which invariably also included coercion, intimidation, shaming and guilt-tripping to “don’t question and just obey.”

The sentiment that Terry has conveyed in his comments (and I don’t intend this as a criticism at all; if it’s not accurate, Terry, please correct me) is that he is not and never has been deeply invested in the overall UBF organization, heritage, mission, etc. In fact, he doesn’t much care what happens to the organization at the national and international levels. Rather, he wants to live as a quiet life as good Christian, a faithful husband and father, and maintain good relationships with the people closest to him. Therefore, a lot of the discussion that takes place on UBFriends doesn’t resonate with him; it doesn’t reflect his experience or his interests. Terry deeply appreciates all the good things his chapter director has done for him. In fact, one of the best things that his chapter director may have done for Terry was to effectively shield him from the power plays and toxic politics of the larger UBF organization and the abusive things going on in other chapters.

Terry’s story is a very important one, and I’m glad that he has told it. It’s a good bet that there are many others whose stories are similar to his. Those stories need to be heard and processed and incorporated into the community’s narrative.

You miss my point fully.

Los Angeles UBF is the second largest chapter in the US. How could that not be ‘mainstream’?

In fact, we are looking closely at the “heritage” you reference and are working on a new version of it.

In the initial draft, some financial matters are addressed including how offering money is used. There is currently something about chapter run businesses too. The details are being vetted.

It is the expectation that UBF leaders obey the federal, state and local laws.

Terry, what you’re saying here sounds problematic to me again. The first part of what you’re saying is right and biblical. People need to be broken to accept and understand the gospel. But the question is, who shall break them? I believe only God is able to break and remake people in a way that does not damage their souls. If people try to break other people (as your last sentence implies) this can cause serious damage to their souls.

As you confirm, UBF leaders have always followed that paradigm that they must break people and then remake them. This was the goal of all the “trainings” of Samuel Lee. Often people have be broken so completely that they lost any self-confidence, any feeling of self-worth and their old personality, started to tolerate any abuse done to them and others, and obey “absolutely” and fear any criticism. You say that you are not broken in such a way. But do you care that others were broken in such a way?

It is fully possible for people to break and then remake other people. All cults engage in this business. But if people remake other people, the result is horrible. And example is given in Mt 23: “You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.”

Was I being obtuse? Maybe (ok probably). But I am intentionally so because one of the crossroads issues (and the most important one in my observation) is the gospel. You landed on the gospel Jesus preached, but rarely did that happen in the ubf world the past 50 years. What I mean is ubf continues even today to define the gospel in terms of personal ambition and self glory, and then binds people’s lives to the 12 point heritage. People then act out of fear– fear that if they stop the UBF hamster wheel, they are sinning against God and following satan’s advice.

The Ethics committee work is important, but I am discouraged to see that “ethics” is the first focus of whatever change is going on in Chicago UBF. Why not focus on the gospel? Why not first review and examine the 12 point heritage and fix your flawed theological fabric which could render your Ethics committee useless? Preaching the gospel and following Jesus is the “good path” Joe describes. What kind of gospel will UBF preach?

Personally I think the problem is that UBF is made up of sinners different from you. There are many different kinds of sins. There are personal sins. Everyone has to struggle with these. And there are the specific “sins of the shepherds” and “sins of the sheep”, as explained in the article about authoritarianism in the church by Steve Marin. I found that the UBF resulted from a kind of symbiosis between these two different kind of sinners.

In psychological terms, these are the passive-agressive personality types (whose behavior resembles people with narcissistic personality disorder) who command others, tell others they owe them and make others feel guilty and never feel guilty themselves, even if you’re talking at them until you’re blue in the face, and the insecure, harmony-addicted personality types (whose behavior resembles people with dependency personality disorder) who let themselves be commanded and always feel guilty and that they owe something to others.

Of course, the reality is a bit more complex, there are some thick-skinned members who don’t fall into either of these categories, but according to my experience most members have either of these personality types and disorders which “complete” each other so nicely and create a dysfunctional system that is hard to break and change.

So in my eyes the problem is not that UBF is made up of the same kind of sinners but of different kinds of sinners who complement each other in a way that reinforces their respective sins.

Because the kind of sins of the sheep and the shepherds is different, I believe they also need to be treated differently.

We are not speaking about you, Terry. But there are chapters directors in UBF who do have such power and influence. Samuel Lee was the prime example, and many copied him, and there are still many chapter directors who follow the example he set, like the one under whom “big bear” served. The fact that you don’t have power and influence does not contradict the fact that “big bear”‘s or my or Vitaly’s chapter directors exerted such power and influence. And as long as such chapter directors are tolerated in UBF, there is a risk that your family is at stake, it just depends on the chapter you’re in.

“Don’t waste the gift God has given you with critical thinking.”

Terry, can you elaborate on that? This advice worries me a lot.

Nobody here is interested in the punishment aspect, aw. The point we’re interested in is the confrontation of the current leadership with their sin, first the accumulated covered-up and untreated sin of the past, then the current sins (not their personal sins, but most of all the sins that affect people and the whole ministry). If they openly and clearly admit what happened in the past and repent (individually and as an organization), everything is well. There are very specific and concrete sins that need to be handled, like forcing a woman to have an abortion (a UBF leader even carried her to an abortion clinic by command of SL). You find many other concrete issues listed on this website. They have never been officially acknowledged. Currently, I don’t know whether the top leadership still claims this is all untrue and only lies and slander (as they did 10 years ago), or whether they admit this on the quiet. Even if the latter is the case, they could change their mind any time and start to follow the former strategy of calling everything lie and slander and persecution again. UBF leaders like this ambiguity and freedom of choice. But they need to make a clear statement, 1) whether these things really happened, 2) whether these things need to be condemned or not and 3) what measures to take that these things will never happen again. This will separate the wheat from the chaff. Those who are not willing to admit and condemn these things are not those with whom UBF members should want to associate with and tolerate in their organization.

Second, the “ethics committee.” So what happened is that more than 50 years ago UBF split from the Presbyterian church, who had a sophisticated code of conduct and ethics (“book of church order”, “standards of ethical conduct” etc.) and for 50 years lived without caring about ethics at all (prime example: the abortion shows, but I can give many other examples) and about proper church discipline (prime example: the German reformers were expelled, but Peter Chang against whom several members brought force serious allegations and against whom even the state attorney made investigations, was demonstratively made the main speaker at the ISBC at that time, and again I can give many more examples). Then, after 50 years, members of this same organization form an ethics committee behind closed doors to elaborate something that every normal church has, and even ask us to wait until they are finished? The first thing any ethics committee should do is process the sins of the past and issue a clear statement about these things. If they don’t see the need to do this, then this disqualifies them already. Such a statement doesn’t need time. We don’t need an ethics committee to see that forcing abortions, faking photos, misappropriating money, letting people sit in ice water, letting people check their underwear etc. is unethical. They can repent for letting this happen in their organization for not having a code of conduct for 50 years now. From this point they can go on and create a code of conduct for the future.