Comments on: How Did You Raise Your Kids as a Pastor (The ABCs of Godly Parenting)

By: Ben Toh

Tue, 11 Mar 2014 00:03:45 +0000

This statement by my daughter is an area of my life that lasted over the first 2 decades of my Christian life in Chicago UBF, which I have almost “forgotten” until she expressed it: “This sense of your fear of Dr. Lee could be where I got the idea that God was someone who wanted to control me and make me follow the rules. I remember going to the 3 pm SWS to boost your worship service attendance numbers, and was bored to tears, looking forward to the slurpee you bribed us with from 7-Eleven on the drive home! I remember you and mom talking about people receiving “Skokie training” and other punishments for not meeting standards. I don’t remember having many discussions about grace (although I’m sure we had them, they’re not the ones that stand out most in my memory) until I was well into college, when you began branching out and reading books and sermons that were written by (gasp) non-UBF members.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/03/09/how-did-you-raise-your-kids-as-a-pastor-the-abcs-of-godly-parenting/#more-7683

I’m totally ashamed and embarrassed that I used and bribed my own impressionable kids simply to “boost my Sun worship attendants numbers” “out of fear of Samuel Lee.” This fear of man (the UBF leader[s]) was part and parcel of my Christian experience until a few years ago when I read Proverbs 29:25. I was shocked that I had “never seen” this verse before, even though I had read Proverbs many times over the years.

Since then I realized that to fear any man is a sin against God. It is to regard the man you fear as having more authority over your life than the God above him/her. Since then, God, by his grace, has helped me to overcome the fear of man. It does not at all mean to be rude or disrespectful to any person, but simply that you no longer fear him/her as though he/she is someone who has power and control over you.

Despite communicating the fear of man (Samuel Lee) to my own kids, which may have distorted their view of God, I thank God who is sovereign and who helped them to somehow live in the fear of God in their hearts, despite myself.

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By: forestsfailyou

Mon, 10 Mar 2014 12:50:50 +0000

yes, I clearly understood that my mother was wrong. She really felt like a failure because of it. After reading Tim Keller’s The Reason for God I saw that she had been measuring herself to the standard of how my brother obeyed her. Any standard outside of Christ will fail, and when it does you will have only despair. My mother was putting her identity in something besides Christ.

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By: big bear

Mon, 10 Mar 2014 12:31:24 +0000

Michael….parents can’t blame the poor choices of their children on themselves or their failures and short comings…we are to live in God’ s grace and love….pray for them but not control them….ultimately even a Pastor kids have to meet Jesus personally….a great book we are reading and studying at our church is “why christian kids rebel” we must raise kids in grace not rules

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By: big bear

Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:50:40 +0000

Ben..you will know my heart of parenting after you read my book…love the comments by your daughter they are real….hope all your children read our book….grace based parenting is what I practice now…giving children freedom to follow their dreams and decisions…loving them unconditionally…and giving them freedom to chose their own path…joyful living and loving God….

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By: forestsfailyou

Mon, 10 Mar 2014 04:15:35 +0000

I remember my senior year of high school my literature teacher said that in some respect parents saw how their children turned out as a reflection of them as people. (I think we were reading Othello?) This really opened my eyes our family’s issue. It is likely the situation at stake her, the pastor sees his children as a reflection of his or her ministry. My mother felt like a failure due to my brother. She had invested all her time and energy into my brother but he was still violent and was still doing illegal activities. I told her, she either had to kick him out or put up with his nonsense; there were no other alternatives. She began pressuring me to be a ‘good role’ model, but not as a brother- as a parent. She wanted me to rebuke him as a parent would, in hopes that I would change him. I refused to do so because I knew it would end my brother’s relationship with me. I told him I would not tolerate his drug use around me, made my stance clear but I knew that unless he wanted to change he would not.

I am happy to say that everything worked out for the better. My brother moved out 2 years ago and has not messed around with drugs. He has a girl friend, whom he plans on proposing to at the end of the year (fingers crossed). My mother has been doing well since my brother has been well. It is shocking that my brother’s situation seemed more challenging to her than cancer itself.

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By: Ben Toh

Mon, 10 Mar 2014 04:07:02 +0000

Thanks so much for sharing, Vitaly. My daughter’s comment above and your comment is really really enlightening. I know what she wrote and what you wrote is absolutely true. Yet despite such an authoritarian controlling atmosphere in Chicago UBF, I saw, tasted and experienced the goodness of God in my heart.

I will never go back to that life. I will never encourage anyone to accept that life. But it was my life under the sovereign hand of God that led me into such a church where I did become a Christian. Why God would lead me into such a church, God Himself only knows. Now it is the same sovereign hand of God that helped me see how bad that was and to understand those who have such really horrible experiences. God is still good, without excusing the bad that happened.

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By: Ben Toh

Mon, 10 Mar 2014 04:00:21 +0000

Thanks for sharing this, Agi. It is not negative, because it is true and objective from your perspective and even from mine. Remembering those days as you shared is not entirely a pleasant recollection, yet it was what it was. It was also what I believed and practiced and indeed feared in those days, which I know today to be quite unhealthy (Prov 29:25). Yet I knew then that God was real and good, despite that.

Without realizing it, I guess my reflection on parenting in this post is what I perceive and practice and believe today! And not necessarily when you were growing up! But yes, thank God that God is good, regardless of us!

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By: Vitaly

Mon, 10 Mar 2014 03:55:00 +0000

I know personally and experientially that living as a Christian and a Christ-follower is the best life that anyone can ever live. I wanted my kids to know that my life as a Christian was not a burden, nor an imposition, nor an unwelcomed duty forced upon us. Rather, it was a joy, a privilege and a sheer delight that nothing in the world can compare with. I believe my kids saw that their parents were not forcing it, faking it or fudging it, but that we were truly enjoying our life and thanking God for the life and the grace that God has freely given us through Christ by the work of the Holy Spirit, even though we did not deserve an ounce of the good life that we are living. – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/03/09/how-did-you-raise-your-kids-as-a-pastor-the-abcs-of-godly-parenting/#sthash.tq4JjJeS.dpuf

Thank you for the article, Ben. I just wanted to share that in ubf context “my life as a ubf shepherd was a burden, an imposition, an unwelcomed duty forced upon us. It was not a joy, a privilege nor a sheer delight that nothing in the world can compare with. I believe my kids saw that their parents were forcing it, faking it or fudging it, and that we were not truly enjoying our life”.

Our children had a hard time while we were in ubf. They didn’t see their parents at home much at first. Later they were also forced to come to sws and conferences though they didn’t want to (And we didn’t want them to come). There always was a question in the air in our family, “why must we obey those “servants of god” and live such an unnatural and forced life?”.

Now as we are a part of a healthy church we feel we are a part of the Church and we are truly happy to be Christ-followers, not forced to do some activities but free in God’s grace to act out of love to God and to others. And we are happy to see our children loving God and loving the church in freedom. Now they also see that we are not different at home and in church. We are happy to see that God’s grace is healing them and helping them to forgive their parents for their ubf past.

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By: cth

Mon, 10 Mar 2014 03:39:08 +0000

Hi Dad, I have to say that when I read this comment of yours (below), I remember that growing up, I had a very strong sense that you and mom were terrified of upsetting Samuel Lee:

“For 27 years my (Ben Toh’s) identity was in my faithfulness to never miss a UBF Sun worship service, never miss any meetings, never miss writing a testimony every week, never missing any UBF conferences, having 10 1:1 Bible studies a week, etc. I did well as a UBF man. Yet, though I love Jesus, my identity was not in Christ but in what others in UBF expected of me.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/#sthash.QbAYZ26D.dpuf”

This sense of your fear of Dr. Lee could be where I got the idea that God was someone who wanted to control me and make me follow the rules. I remember going to the 3 pm SWS to boost your worship service attendance numbers, and was bored to tears, looking forward to the slurpee you bribed us with from 7-Eleven on the drive home! I remember you and mom talking about people receiving “Skokie training” and other punishments for not meeting standards. I don’t remember having many discussions about grace (although I’m sure we had them, they’re not the ones that stand out most in my memory) until I was well into college, when you began branching out and reading books and sermons that were written by (gasp) non-UBF members.

But I also remember times when you sat down with me and probably Paul or Benji and said you wanted to pray with us and me just crying while we prayed even though I didn’t know why I was crying. I had a strong sense, whether you explicitly said it or not, I don’t remember, that you wanted me to make my decisions to please God and not you. I appreciated very much that you didn’t tell me whether I should quit the dance team or not when I was convicted about it in high school and asked you what I should do – this forced me to make my decision before God. I thought back to this every time I had to make a big decision since that time.

I think growing up I didn’t feel like I could express my questions, concerns or doubts openly. I always had a sense that the way you and so many other UPF people lived in fear of Dr. Lee was wrong, but since I was little I didn’t know how to express those concerns. That was “normal” to me because it was always that way, but it still just didn’t seem right to me.

But yes, God is so good, and I’m so glad He broke through to our family with the gospel and His grace. I feel bad saying so many “negative” things in this comment when I really had a wonderful childhood and never doubted your and mom’s love.

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