My point is that humanity has never been 100% male and female since way back in the Garden of Eden, perhaps. As in all things, we tend to want purity. We really wish this world could be made up of pure male and pure female. But that is just not the case.
]]>So it would be correct to say that for the vast majority of people there is still cleary male and female, though a minority are not. I learned a new word today–“cisgender.” Thanks!
And yes, we Christians should absolutely be kind, gentle, gracious, generous, compassionate and respectful toward anyone who is not cisgender.
]]>Correct. That is why we allies use the term “gender and sexual minorities”. There is evidence that such non-heteronormal people are not such a small percentage as we once thought. But yes, still a minority.
It is a great thing to be cisgender, like me and most of us. We should be thankful we don’t have to deal with the realities facing gender and sexual minorities, and we should be compassionate and welcoming toward them. God is doing some astounding things among non-cisgender and non-heterosexual people.
]]>3) Christians have misinterpreted Scripture and “must forcefully reject the notion that our being created in God’s image and given dominion over the earth justifies absolute domination over other creatures.”
]]>He fails to see however that humanity is not purely “feminine” and “masculine”. There is no longer “male and female”, and the kingdom of God is bringing about this reformation, tearing down the male-dominated hierarchies and revealing more and more of humanity’s characteristics.
So I would ask:
How do we incorporate the reality that not only is our body gendered, but our brain is gendered? What is more, our sexuality is gendered and our desires are also gendered. There is no such thing as pure “male” or pure “female”.
]]>7) Gender differences matter, and “valuing one’s own body in its femininity or masculinity is necessary if I am going to be able to recognize myself in an encounter with someone who is different.”
]]>The New Wine: Welcoming LGBTQIA People to the Wedding of the Lamb
]]>“Three years ago, the Christian activist Symon Hill embarked on a pilgrimage of repentance for his former homophobia. It’s now time for the church as a whole to follow in his footsteps. As a means of opposing injustice, sitting down and saying nothing may be polite but it’s not what Jesus did, and it’s not what Beeching’s story demands.”
]]>“might be able to have irenic discussions”
This is my primary mantra in regard to gender and sexual minority people.
If I a traswoman is brave enough to walk into a church, the church must be brave enough to “have the conversation”.
My 4 part presentation on why I am a avid advocate for LGBTQIA people is entitled “Have the Conversation”.
This is also a major point in my new book:
The New Wine < new book just published!
]]>Here is Vicky Beeching telling her story in her own voice in this 5 minute video: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/18/vicky-beeching-coming-out-matters-christians
Here is a two hour long interview of various LGBT Christians who share their sometimes sad and painful stories of being rejected by their own churches, families and even parents: http://www.theliturgists.com/podcast/2015/5/18/episode-20-lgbtq
My thoughts and sentiment at present is that we Christians, regardless of where we stand on this issue, might be able to have irenic discussions on this painfully divisive and increasingly delicate hot button issue. When we learn to “listen to the other side” with compassion and without reacting, I believe that God will help us to be loving and gracious, kind and gentle, and not judgmental and condemning.
]]>If you want to call people to account for not following original creative intent, you’ll also need to call God into account. Even a reading of Genesis makes this clear. Consider the flood of Noah’s day that destroyed (almost) everything living thing on the face of the whole earth, or eating meat, or death–God ordained changes. He didn’t talk about intent. He understood the circumstance of people and the world they live in and acted accordingly. I think we see the same from Jesus throughout the gospels.
]]>When I talked with Jim Brownson in D.C. earlier this year, he was toying with numerous theological ideas. One of them was about the new creation.
He said that when people make the point that God originally created mankind as “male and female”, he agrees with them. God did that. But Jim asks what about the new creation? We have two facts we are trying to understand: God created male and female. Gays exist. How did that happen? Jim was bouncing around the idea that perhaps, just perhaps, God might be doing something new. Maybe what we are seeing is not some broken, failed humanity but something part of a new creative work?
I don’t know what to make of that, but I certainly agree with the point that God does new things, and we should be highly cautious of speaking about God’s intentions. Who am I to speak for God? Could God change his mind?
The solid theological concept I learned from Jim was to examine the trajectory of “male and female” in the bible. That yields some very intriguing results. That is something I bring up in my new book, which is in editing mode:
The New Wine: Welcoming LGBTQIA People to the Wedding of the Lamb soon to be published!
]]>Vines’ response to Keller’s review: http://www.matthewvines.com/a-response-to-tim-kellers-review/
“Reading this section of his review, I couldn’t help but wonder whether Keller actually read my entire book.”
]]>Yes, but not in countries like Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iraque, North Korea, Lybia, Kenia, or Uganda – in all of these countries and quite a few others homosexuality is strictly illegal. In many other countries, like Putin’s Russia, it’s the other way around: If you propagate homosexuality in public, you will be in big trouble.
When a country bans homosexuality, then it seems to me rather an indicator that it’s a country I don’t want to live in.
]]>Two recent incidents that immediately come to mind are the horrific tragedy of the ferry that sank and killed 300 plus people, mostly high school kids. The other is the embezzling of 12 million dollars by David Yonggi Cho (and his son), the pastor of the largest church in the world.
]]>Listen these quotes… do you hear the heritage?
“There was great repentance among leaders and young students. Preparing their messages and writing life testimonies, we repented deeply and sincerely before God, and we were born again once more from lust and homosexuality.”
“If one criticizes homosexuality in public, he will be in big trouble, probably even with a possibility of being arrested. Modern society is like Sodom and Gomorrah. Intellectuals follow the social consensus without thinking.”
Double work of God report by John Jun in 2010
” According to verse 15, Nicolaitan teaching was same as that of Balaam. Nicolaitan means ‘swallowing the people’. This means that they swallowed the people with corrupted and immoral teaching. They claimed that the time of law was over, and people should live without the law. So they promoted lawlessness. They taught that believers could indulge in unlimited physical pleasure since they were already forgiven. Such teaching is comparable to hedonism in our time. Our times are badly influenced by hedonism, materialism and idol worship like Sodom and Gomorrah. As described in the later part of Romans 1 (Ro1:26-31), the world has become full of shameful homo-sexuality, every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity, envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. Love grew cold and people became lawless (Matthew 24:12).
We also live in a flood of bad influences. Even in America, which is known as a Christian country, in 2 states including Massachusetts, which is known as a most intellectual state, gay marriage is legally approved. In America, the divorce rate has reached 60%. Ironically, the divorce rate among American Christians is almost the same. This shows that Christians are being influenced by the world; they are not positively influencing the society. The bad influence of the world corrupts the church.”
]]>This former ubf Korean director teaches all ubf directors that homosexuality is akin to “swine flu”, will destroy families and will obliterate society as we know it, and perhaps destroy all societies on earth. Wow such stupidity.
“Paul says homosexuality is unnatural, indecent and abnormal. These days in America and Europe, homosexuality has spread like swine flu. What is worse, some Christian leaders are homosexuals. Five states of America made homosex marriage legal. But this immorality destroys families. According to one of high school teachers in Chicago said that about the ninety percentages of the students are broken families. The family is the core of our society. If the family is destroyed, the society will be destroyed. If the society is destroyed, our societies of the earth would be like orphanages without families.”
]]>On the other hand, fishing has not been effective at all in reaching marginalized people who already feel distanced, such as LGBT. For example, one student responded to an invitation to Bible study by saying, “I’m gay.” They already thought the door was closed and I should not be asking them.
]]>If you have not read it, here’s my account of how West Loop started: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/03/telling-the-truth-how-west-loop-ubf-began/
]]>Also, I find it interesting how your prayer for planting a church began, because I had not heart it from other stories of how WL began. :(
What you said about Galatians is also interesting in view of the entire letter being the main content at the upcoming staff conference. Although I was a little discouraged after Joe’s comments about it from the education committee, your words give some hope for an enjoyable and beneficial conference.
]]>The answer was “Of course you can ask the question.” But the reality that we both knew was that if she asked the question (which I don’t even remember), she would have been viewed negatively and critically by the church.
So yes, it is very very unfortunate when the church is not a safe place but a place where you have to behave according to the rules set by the oligarchy in the church, which is nothing short of legalism. I pray and hope that this will begin to change.
Seriously and practically studying Galatians might be a great starting point. Forest’s testimony on Galatians 6 is an excellent starting point, even if some leaders might feel threatened by it and even sanction it from ever being shared or published on a UBF website.
]]>So yes, I burned the bridge connecting me to ubf. But that’s because that bridge was dangerous and faulty. I am building a new bridge, and forming new relationships with ubf people. We can never go back to the old bridge, but we can always build a new bridge. That is reconciliation. And that is why I am still in this blessed conversation.
]]>But I believe God called me to stand in the gap, as you have done Ben, along with Joe. The three of us and all our ubfriends are living in the epicenter of what it means to live out reconciliation, which is the ministry Christ left all his followers. So we experience the messy, ugly, painful, crazy discussions. But this will ultimately result in the most amazing joy and peace and hope that we could ever find.
And that is why people like Matthew Vines are desperately needed– people who walk into the eye of the hurricane full of trust and faith in Jesus Christ our Lord who lives in us.
]]>As Joe shared about the desert fathers, it would be to see the goodness of God in people, even in bad and abusive leaders. It does not in any way mean to condone, approve of, remain silent, or not speak out against the abuses perpetrated. But it is to see God’s goodness in the midst of the bad as Joseph did (Gen 50:20; Rom 8:28).
My hope is that UBFriends may primarily promote the goodness of God, rather than primarily express the “badness of UBF.” Sorry that even if that is my own ideal, my telos and my goal, I know that I fail terribly at this. Thus, I can only cry out Kyrie Eleison (my recent favorite phrase)!
]]>The short answer for me is: God sent me to ubf, God kept me in ubf and God called me away from ubf. I see God’s hand in all three decisions working out his good purpose.
Most ubfers likely don’t see any “good purpose” in my leaving and the past 3 years of blogging and discussions. But I do, and so do many others.
]]>To convert it into different tenses and for people in the present, it could be: “Why did I join? Why am I staying? Why should I leave?”
This obviously does not apply to all UBFers, but a primary reason I would leave would be if I no longer perceive that I am able to influence anyone else in UBF to love Jesus and the gospel that gives grace and freedom. Presently, I am truly having the time of my life (Jn 10:10b) and living a life of love, joy and peace (Gal 5:22)…only by the grace of God (1 Cor 15:10). Thus, I don’t believe that God has called me to leave.
]]>Here is a pre-release quote:
“Mixed in with the façade of goodness was something genuinely good—-spiritual awakening. As a teenager who lost his father to a debilitating disease, and who had felt called to the Catholic priesthood, I was thinking deeply about the questions of life. I loved philosophy more than religion, but found the bible to be full of intriguing teachings. I sincerely wanted to know more about God and the bible and all religions, and I did so more than most it seemed. Perhaps this passion to comprehend the spiritual realm is not only why I joined UBF but stayed for all of my adult formative years. And perhaps this same passion is why I left UBF ministry 24 years later.”
This book is a case study using my experience in University Bible Fellowship to tell the stories needed to understand how and why authoritative new religious movements operate on college campuses. And I include 3 appendices:
Appendix A – Short Glossary UBF Terminology
Appendix B – Diagram of Burden Layers in UBF
Appendix C – The 12 UBF Heritage Slogans
They need God’s mercy and grace, and they also need much rebuke and confrontation with their sin and the harm they caused. Adequate love can mean frank rebuke as Lev 19:17-18 explains. Patience with abusive leaders is not adequate love.
]]>And then there is another issue, namely when you are not even serving people “for free” (as in Mt 10:8b), but serving them with ulterior motives and expectations for a certain “return of investment,” namely raising people as shepherds and ultimately with the motive to somehow “own them”.
I always felt that because UBF shepherds kind of “mediate” the ultimate gift of God to the sheep, which is salvation and eternal calling, then the sheep must be eternally endebted to their shepherds. I can testify that personally as a “sheep” I had this feelign towards my shepherds (my personal 1:1 teacher, my director who also claimed to be my personal shepherd and also all the missionaries and of course the founder of the ministry) believing that without the ministry and their service I would have ended as a lost sinner. And my shepherds always fostered that feeling, and demanded absolute obedience and loyalty and dedication to the ministry based on that feeling. This is what NickT called the “now you owe me” phase which slowly but surely follows the “love bombing” phase.
]]>“Without justifying the perpetrators, LGBTs (and their sympathizers) who regard themselves as Christian may also not love adequately those who marginalize and exclude them.”
]]>“Communities are truly communities when they are open to others, when they remain vulnerable and humble; when the members are growing in love, in compassion and in humility. Communities cease to be such when members CLOSE IN UPON THEMSELVES with the certitude that they alone have wisdom and truth and expect everyone to be like them and learn from them.” (CAPS MINE.)
]]>You wrote: “But all who have left UBF might acknowledge that they were loved and served in some ways, yet many did not feel deeply loved, but used instead. Why is that?”
Here’s my two cents’ worth answer, a quote from Jean Vanier:
“In effect, to love is not primarily *to do* something for someone, but *to reveal* to that person his or her value, not only through listening and tenderness, through love and kindness, but also through a certain competence and faithful commitment.”
The understanding of love that I was taught in UBF was service. I can’t count how many times I’ve heard messages that declare “to love is to serve.” Yes, service is a part of it. But people do not feel deeply loved by you until you receive something of value from them, until you find what is truly good in them and make it part of yourself and then reflect it back to them. That is the aspect of love that is deeper, harder, more sacrificial, more challenging to our own pride and dignity and self esteem than any kind of sacrificial service.
You can be a faithful, lowly toilet cleaner for years and years, always obedient, always humble, always sacrificial, all the while doing it to build up your own identity and self esteem as a faithful servant. That kind of service, while apparently good, can be supremely selfish and ultimately unloving and even infuriating. Real love is to empty yourself of your own self worth so that you can fill yourself up with the good things that others can offer to you.
]]>Without justifying the perpetrators, LGBTs (and their sympathizers) who regard themselves as Christian may also not love adequately those who marginalize and exclude them. Again, without justifying those who hate and condemn, Christ was treated worse than any anti-LGBT person. If one is in Christ, intimacy and closeness to Christ and the unconditional love of God may be the result of being persecuted/hated by the Christian/religious community.
Extending this to UBF, surely shepherds and missionaries have failed to adequately love their sheep. Again without justifying those who are abusive, the converse is also likely true in that those who felt used and abused by UBF for years and decades may also not adequately love their abusive and authoritarian shepherds and missionaries, for they also need God’s mercy and grace.
I empathize as much as humanly possible with all those who felt taken advantage of by UBF missionaries. I in fact believe that you were often used, abused and taken advantage of. But I also know that it is often done in ignorance. This does not in any way excuse or exonerate them, and that they are still fully responsible for their authoritarianism and inexcusable abuse.
We all need God’s mercy, patience and kindness in the midst of existing brokenness, misunderstanding and lack of love. All of us need to see love where there seems to be none.
]]>I personally resonate with Joe’s statements about the desert father’s striving and laboring to see others in love, rather than to see their sin (which honestly any bloke can do spontaneously without much effort).
Much of the brokenness of UBF stems from shepherds and missionaries sacrificing much to love their sheep. But all who have left UBF might acknowledge that they were loved and served in some ways, yet many did not feel deeply loved, but used instead. Why is that?
The reason is obvious. The shepherds and missionaries loved their sheep with the expectation and agenda to make them Bible teachers and committed UBF members. Often they failed miserably to love their sheep as they were. Joe’s illustration of loving his autistic son is lovely and majestic. Henri Nouwen, a brilliant intellectual, loving and serving mentally retarded adults is a picture of heaven.
But our love is riddled and laced with biases, prejudices, agendas, impositions, favoritism, racism, nationalism, selfish motivations, pride, etc, that if we are truly self-critical about our so-called love, we can only cry out Kyrie Eleison!
]]>About Jesus associating with tax collectors and sinners: Yes, this is one of the key features of Jesus’ ministry and of the gospel itself. Jesus associated with all sorts of people of questionable character and behavior to the point where religious conservatives criticized him as being an enabler of sin. I would say that we, as a church, are not following in Jesus’ footsteps unless we are associating with “sinners” to the point of being criticized by some religious conservatives as being enables of sin. Rejection by association is part of the scandalous nature of the gospel.
You asked, “If indeed LGBT are sinners, then doesn’t Jesus see them as sick?” I won’t claim to know what Jesus sees. But based on my reading of the gospels, I think he sees everyone, the whole human race, as sick with sin. But more importantly, I think he sees them with eyes of love. I think that, when Jesus looks into the face of each and every human being, he sees a small picture of himself, a picture of God, in whose image we were created.
Lately I’ve been reading about the spiritual disciplines of the early monastic Christians, the so-called Desert Fathers and Desert Mothers. Their main struggle was not to overcome the desires of their own flesh, but to see other people “correctly,” with eyes of genuine love. When we look at other human beings, it is so easy for us to see (what we perceive as) their flaws. We are constantly categorizing, judging, weighing, dissecting one another. Church people are so adept at this. We call it discernment, but Jesus calls it judging. There is no virtue in that. We think we have not perceived the truth about a person until we have uncovered all their sins and faults. But the early monastic Christians believed they had not perceived the truth of a person until they had glimpsed his or her essential goodness which flows from the image of God.
My oldest son (now 21 years old) is autistic, with mental capacities bordering on retardation. He was born that way. (Note: I’m not equating this with homosexuality. The two are not equivalent.) God, for reasons and ways that I don’t understand, allowed him to be born that way. His autism is a kind of birth defect. But it is also a kind of gift. As a father, my mission is to see, understand and acknowledge his giftedness, because until I do, he will not feel truly loved.
We as a church have the same essential mission: to demonstrate the love of God by seeing through (what we perceive as) flaws in other people to understand and acknowledge their giftedness to the point that they truly feel they are valued. That is my best understanding of what it means to love someone, anyone, no matter who they are.
If I were king, I would ban the use of the following sayings, which quickly come up when Christians talk about LGBT issues.
* “We have to hate the sin but love the sinner.”
* “We have to speak the truth in love.”
I would not ban these sayings because they are false. I would ban them because the understanding of “love” that typically lies behind them is so weak, so tepid, so superficial that it does not deserve to be called by that name.
In my opinion, one way that the church can move forward is to momentarily set aside the direct questions about LGBT and instead have a serious discussion about the meaning of love. We toss that word around so casually, so flippantly, that at times if feels almost blasphemous. In my opinion, evangelicals (both at the conservative end and at the progressive end) have lost the ability to talk about love except in ways that are seem trite, and we need to turn to the contemplative Christian traditions to recover some wisdom in this area.
]]>“The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore. For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come.” Hebrews 13:11-14
]]>Given the Christian paradigm, yes you are correct. I don’t see any evidence that homosexuality is a disease, or that LGBT people are necessarily “sick”. This merely speaks to the difficulty of overlaying the bible stories onto our current lives. Apart from that, I agree fully with your thoughts.
The other passage that almost always comes to my mind is John 9. So many times I have been told exactly this: “Give glory to God!”, both by ubf people about ubf (the implication is that I do not give glory to God) and about LGBT issues.
Perspective is so very helpful in all this. What would you do if an entire community rejected you and leaves you with only the following options: 1) go back into the closet and pretend to be straight or at least not act on your natural orientation 2) make the world a less broken place by dying.
That’s really the only 2 options given to our fellow homosexual human beings. So yes like Jesus I willingly am “guilty by association”.
]]>Recently I was thinking about the difficulties of discussing this issue in the context of the church after preparing a message on Levi, from Luke 5:27-32. As you know, Jesus’ disciples were questioned, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” By their words, tax collectors were categorized as sinners and marginalized. It didn’t matter to them who Levi or any of the other tax collectors were. Simply, they were grouped as “sinners.” It was the same for Zacchaeus. But just before this Jesus had seen Levi and called him to follow. It was unimaginable to them that Jesus and his disciples would eat and drink with such people because of who Jesus claimed to be. Yet, Jesus called Levi, welcoming and accepting him, even before we know of any change or repentance on his part. I believe that came after Jesus called. Jesus went to him first and welcomed him.
This got me thinking about how groups are categorized and marginalized by the church today, especially LGBT. How might church members respond if one of their pastors or a UBF chapter director was supporting a pride parade, eating and drinking and parading with them, for example? We might ask the same question, “Why are you eating and drinking with them (sinners)?” Of course, there are some key differences between homosexuals and tax collectors, namely, choice (no one is “born” a tax collector). But what I’m getting at is how we have a similar way of categorizing people in groups and marginalizing them, distancing them from fellowship with Jesus and with the church body, for the very reason that they are sinners. Major cognitive dissonance.
To Jesus, there was no discussion to be had. He just went and called Levi. Discussions began with the accusatory question of the Pharisees and teachers of the law. So, I had several questions after preparing the message.
If indeed LGBT are sinners, then doesn’t Jesus see them as sick? Then shouldn’t that be the reason for Christians to also see them ask sick and engage in welcoming fellowship? At what point did we start setting standards for who we can have fellowship with? What demands do we place on people to be welcomed into our fellowship (are they repentant; are they “changed”)?
I have heard quite a few UBF messages that focus on the good “qualities” in the people Jesus called, such as “hard-working” fishermen, as if Jesus were scouting them for their abilities. What about the marginalized people like Levi who were deemed as good for nothing sinners? It says that Jesus saw a “tax collector” before even mentioning Levi’s name. It wasn’t about his good qualities, but he saw his sickness and Jesus called out to him.
Maybe one of the obstacles is our fear of being rejected by association? I find that my own lack of convictions about details are a personal obstacle. Yet, if we would go as far as to accept them into the fellowship, how could do show favoritism and not allow them to serve in whatever capacity, including teacher? That wouldn’t be a full acceptance as one would come to expect of Christians imitating Jesus.
]]>We need to be resurrection people whose eyes are on Christ and whose lives are steeped with authentic gospel messages and founded on love.
I believe Scripture gives us permission and freedom to explore how to better love and befriend all of humanity. Scripture warns of promiscuity and celebrates both marriage and celibacy, but should not be our ball and chain.
]]>Matthew Vine’s main point is to open the dialogue and debate. Gay people have always existed and will continue to be born (even if we do round them all up in a fenced area to die like on North Carolina preacher preached from the pulpit.)
And that’s my point also. I have a celebrate, all-inclusive, full equality stance in this arena. But my main point is merely to spark discussion in a safe way. What better place than ubfriends?
Already I have received feedback from my two book reviews from ubf people who contacted me privately. I won’t reveal anything they shared, but ubf leaders need to stop playing KOPHN games and pay attention to the gay people among their community as well as paying attention to all kinds of marginalized people in ubf.
There is much goodness to come out of these discussions, but for now it will likely be ugly, messy and horribly painful.
]]>Christians do not reject me for being homosexual, because I am not homosexual. Christians do not reject me for proclaiming that homosexual behavior is fine, because I have never proclaimed that homosexual behavior is fine. Christians do not reject me for saying “we need to be more welcoming to people who don’t think that homosexual behavior is wrong” because I haven’t really said that either.
Rather, at times, my wife and I have mildly suggested, “Maybe we should have an open-minded discussion about whether we should be more welcoming to people who don’t think that homosexual behavior is wrong.” For that, we’ve been branded by some as dangerous. What’s up with that?
]]>“In his efforts to cram Copernicanism down the throats of his fellow scientists, Galileo managed only to squander the goodwill he had established within the Church. He was attempting to force them to accept a theory that, at the time, was still unproven. The Church graciously offered to consider Copernicanism a reasonable hypothesis, albeit a superior one to the Ptolemaic system, until further proof could be gathered. Galileo, however, never came up with more evidence to support the theory. Instead, he continued to pick fights with his fellow scientists even though many of his conclusions were being proven wrong (i.e., that the planets orbit the sun in perfect circles).” – http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/09/the-myth-of-galileo-a-story-with-a-mostly-valuable-lesson-for-today/
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