we’re missen Blues Bros dancen in the aisles/flippen in the air!

who said the Lord can’t put on the Greatest Show on Earth? <:)

They would rather split like “Barnabas and Paul” than deal with issues. Ironically, Barnabas and Paul got back together. But the expectation from the ubf echelon is that you never see each other again unless you submit to the ubf authority and concede glory to the ubf heritage.

Genesis 11 describes the judgment upon the imperial project of Babel. As Miroslav Volf notes, “Imperial architects seek to unify by suppressing differences that do not fit into a single grand scheme; they strive to make their own name great by erasing the names of simple people and small nations” (226). The resulting judgement is one of scattering what should not be forcefully unified. Babel reminds us that God is not a God who obscures diversity. Acts 2, on the other hand, describes God’s blessing on the early church at Pentecost. Rather than God channeling the gospel through one voice only, the anointing of the Spirit comes so that each may be understood in his or her own language. Again, Volf:

Whereas the tower seeks to make people “not see” and “not speak” and sucks the energies out of the margins in order to stabilize and aggrandize the center, the Spirit pours energies into the margins, opens the eyes of small people to see what no one has seen before, puts the creative words of prophecy into their mouths, and empowers them to be creative agents of God’s reign. (228). – source

no one is great, nor do we need to be; we just need to be good & do well w/God’s help

I don’t think the problem of un-accountable leaders in Korean churches is limited to those who preach a prosperity gospel. But I do think it is prevalent in nondenominational/independent churches that sprang up through the entrepreneurship of individual leaders, such as Yonggi Cho. Or Samuel Lee. Without the ecclesial structure of the Roman Catholic church, or a well established Protestant denomination, to watch over them and impose discipline, they have been free to do whatever they want. One of the defining moments of UBF happened when they “went rogue” and left the auspices of the Presbyterian church, allowing SL to do whatever his wished, with no more accountability.

Korean churches grew exponentially for a period of time. But they are turning out to be like the rocky soil and are seeing rapid declines. There are more and more articles about the growth and decline of the Korean churches.

If the shaming/authority culture of such groups are not challenged, the risk of events like the Oikos University shooting increase greatly.

The only reason ubf has not gone the way of extremely dangerous groups is because of the ex-members who show them Christ-like love and keep them in check. If ubfriends (or something similar) goes away, ubf risks going off the rails.

“Korea Protestantism has taught that pastors are the servant of the Lord, and the only one who can judge the pastors is the Lord.”

http://www.worldtribune.com/2014/11/20/blessed-meek-documentary-slams-korean-megachurch-pastors/

those who stand for right suffer loss but shall recover & redeem blessings

rather glory must go to God who alone can bear it (“Paul” the Missionary endured persecutions for doing right like those who stand in the gap to help the abused)

My contention is that we don’t need to get all kinds of things figured out first. We just need to 1) understand the gospel a little more deeply and 2) welcome those different from us regularly.

The father in the prodigal son parable did not try to understand all the details about his son, he just embraced him.

David, speaking of bible inerrancy, I delve into a similar topic in my book. The thought is that an affirming/celebratory stance toward certain people will require rejecting biblical truth. I claim the opposite:

“Some claim that embracing our fellow LGBTQA human beings means rendering God’s word ineffective and will usher in the collapse of the church. Well, the opposite has happened already. By alienating the LGBTQA community, the church has seen its own collapse in epic proportions. My claim is that when the church affirms, welcomes and celebrates the LGBTQA community, the church will not collapse and be less effective but will be rebuilt, in a new and remarkably more effective way.”

Some would argue (as I currently do) from a biological point of view that sexual attraction and relationships should be heterosexual. But would I go so far as to exclude LGBTQA persons from participating in and even holding official positions within the church? While I wouldn’t want to exclude them, I question how I would help them to grow as whole persons (and they may very well be able to help me to grow in holistic fashion as well). And that raises the question, what does wholeness look like for LGBTQA persons as well as younger and older brother sinner types?

Quote from first draft of my new book:

“Some claim that by affirming and welcoming LGBTQA people into the church with open arms, we will usher in a slippery slope of moral degradation, falling into a “younger brother” wild-living mentality. My claim is that when the church embraces our fellow LGBTQA human beings like the father embraces his younger son in Jesus’ parable, the church will not degrade morally, but instead will see the severe wrongness of dismissing older brother sins more clearly.”

The Lambhearted Lion: Why Christianity Needs Gay People

Such an understanding of the older brother will continue to lead to sin in the church being either entirely unaddressed, or regarded as not as bad as sin in the world.

My subjective sense and my opinion is that some longstanding members of ubf are no longer able to really repent based on listening to ubf messages, since ubf seems to deal primarily with sin “out there” rather than sin “in our very midst.”

As a result some of them basically come across like the older brother: angry, seething, heavy, burdensome, defensive, offensive and particularly resentful of the blessings and happiness of “disgusting” younger brothers who they rather see severely punished, rather than welcomed back without punitive retribution. They want to see others punished according to their sins, but have little idea how they themselves should be equally punished.

I have slightly different take on the problem, if you’ll humor me for a bit. Your first point is,

He is IMPORTANT in the church

Such a statement indicates that there is a perceived power differential between this older leader and the younger member. A power differential is defined as such:

In most conflict situations, one party has more power than another. When the power differential is substantial, this usually has a significant effect on both the substance and process of the dispute. Generally, it is believed that the power of the parties must be relatively even if a negotiation or mediation process is to be fair. If one side is far more powerful than another, they are likely to simply impose their solution on the other side, who will be forced to accept it, because they have no other choice. – source

Clearly, within the organization, the perception is that the older leader is more important, in terms of sustaining and furthering the organization, than the younger member. This kind of power differential could occur because of 1) the way that the ministry is structured or 2) the worldviews of both the older and younger member (e.g. any type of older person is automatically an authority figure because of his or her age) or 3) a combination of 1 and 2.

The older leader needn’t be a legalistic type of sinner to hold sway over the younger member; situations exist in which leaders with licentious proclivities are still upheld and respected as legitimate authority figures within a given organization. In fact, if the leader is influential or charismatic enough, often his or her sin will be justified, rationalized or spiritualized by those within their organization. This is a fourth reason as to why power differentials occur.

One obvious issue with UBF is that the ministry, for a very long time, was essentially a cult of personality which was (and in some ways still is) led by someone who possessed charismatic authority which is defined as:

[authority] resting on devotion to the exceptional sanctity, heroism or exemplary character of an individual person, and of the normative patterns or order revealed or ordained by him. – source

For good or bad (perhaps a combination of both) purposes, only God knows, as a charismatic leader, Samuel Lee cast a very inspiring vision; the prospect of conquering one’s fears/shortcomings and changing the world is a significant meta-narrative theme that resonates deeply with almost anyone. It struck a chord to the degree that people were willing to overlook his shortcomings, which were not relegated to older brother sins only. He also committed mischievous younger brother sins, such as doctoring conference photos. People were willing to overlook these things because if he fell then subsequently the self-actualizing/life-giving vision would come under considerable scrutiny as well.

UBF is taking a good first step in helping the ministry to become healthier in that they are looking at books like Galatians. This is from the 2014 staff conference report:

The theme of the conference was: Christ has set us free. Through Galatians study, the staff prayed to mature as Christians, build a healthy Christian community, and be free in Christ without becoming legalistic or compromising with licentiousness. In preparation, staff members answered the questions to 6 lessons, prepared a factual study of Galatians, and wrote a book summary on College Ministry in a Post-Christian Culture by Stephen Lutz. – source

This may be the start of UBF learning to recognize and distinguish between older brother and younger brother sins. But much more is needed than studying the bible or theology. UBF has to look at its past, meaning that a candid assessment has to be done of the founder’s strengths and pathologies; it has to start with him because the ministry is almost a direct extension or manifestation of who he is. It would help a great deal if UBF looked to the fields of psychology and sociology in order to understand how the ministry was shaped by this person and why. They also need these tools in order to discern future would-be leaders who have similar pathological issues.

And for anyone who’s wondering, I’m not bashing UBF or its founder. I’m thankful for the loving relationships that I’ve built and all of the help that I’ve received in various ways. I’m simply trying to address the obvious so that the community can move forward as a healthy, honest, and Christ-centered enterprise. Furthermore, the situation of being strongly or unduly influenced by a charismatic leader is not unique to UBF. In fact this situation abounds in both the secular and religious realms of society. So quit being so defensive.

What is Scripture? bibliology

Who is God? theology

Who is Jesus? What will happen when Jesus returns? Christology and eschatology

Who is the Holy Spirit? pneumatology

How do we connect with the seen and unseen universe? cosmology, angelology and anthropology

What is the church? ecclesiology

What is sin? hamartiology

What is salvation? soteriology

Only after rejecting the ubf heritage slogans could my mind be free enough to begin grasping the amazing, all-surpassing, effervescent gospel of liberation, healing and joy that Jesus taught!

The gospel of Jesus has immense power to restrain sin, if we would only surrender absolutely to the grace He offers. The gospel of Jesus has remarkable ability to react to and address sin in a healthy manner, if we would only give up our own glory.

Ben, you asked “Why do such shocking things happen in the holy church of God?”

My answer is that sin never goes away. It is impossible (based on what Scripture says) to eradicate sin completely this side of Heaven.

Two things come to mind: prevention of sin and dealing with the consequences of sin. The hamster wheel gospel is highly inadequate in addressing either situation.

When we are caught in a cycle of guilt trips and repentance means merely feeling sorry for our actions without facing the consequences, then we are trapped in a form of godliness that lacks power to restrain our indulgences, our desire for glory or our need to control.

When we misunderstand the command “be perfect” and are attempting to build a sin-free/absolute faith society or community, then we are hamstrung when sin happens.

So the major flaws in ubf theology combined with the contradictory methodologies yields no power to restrain sin and no maturity to deal with sin. There is only the covering up of sins (which goes against the biblical teaching of “covering over” sin) and the kicking out/shunning/shaming response when sin does happen.

But the bible has a very different expression of sin. Here are some Scripture verse that stand out to me:

1. Sin is lawlessness (1 John 3:4)
2. All wrongdoing is sin (1 John 5:17)
3. There is sin that does not lead to death (1 John 5:17)
4. All people have sinned (Romans 3:23)
5. The end result (“wages”) of sin is death (Romans 6:23)
6. No one is excused from the consequences of sin (Galatians 6:7-8)

There are many more verses in Scripture to understand…

I think if we want to understand sin from Scripture’s perspective, 1 John is most helpful.

For example, as you point out Ben, if a certain person breaks the law of the land, we have a duty to report that person. There is more than enough evidence to arrest and jail several ubf leaders because they know about certain abuses and have not obeyed the U.S. law of mandatory reporting. All states have such laws. Some have an odd exemption but nonetheless, ubf leaders need to consider this:

Illinois
325 Ill. Comp. Stat. Ann. § 5/4
Any member of the clergy having reasonable cause to believe that a child known to that member of the clergy in his or her professional capacity may be an abused child as defined by law shall immediately report or cause a report to be made to the Department of Children and Family Services.

Whenever such person is required to report under this act in his or her capacity as a member of the clergy, he or she shall make a report immediately to the department in accordance with the provisions of this act and may also notify the person in charge of the church, synagogue, temple, mosque, or other religious institution, or his or her designated agent, that such a report has been made.

Under no circumstances shall any person in charge of the church, synagogue, temple, mosque, or other religious institution, or his or her designated agent to whom such notification is made, exercise any control, restraint, modification, or other change in the report or the forwarding of such report to the department.

The privileged quality of communication between any professional person required to report and his or her patient or client shall not apply to situations involving abused or neglected children and shall not constitute grounds for failure to report.

A member of the clergy may claim the privilege under § 8-803 of the Code of Civil Procedure.

source

Yes, this is a great summary of one major flaw in ubf theology (not exactly sure if it explains what you wanted to say in the first paragraph). Chris gave an excellent explanation of this flaw in a comment recently, and described what I call the “hamster wheel gospel” perfectly.

“Have you studied about the sins of the religious in Rom 2:1-3:20?”

Yes, but only briefly. Romans has been called a master symphony. My thoughts don’t do it justice. I felt overwhelmed by Romans. But then I learned that grace (charis) is mentioned more in Romans than any other book. So my personal study of the book of Romans was based on trying to understanding grace (charis). It is clear that Romans 3 is rooted in the Psalms. So I think understanding the Psalms may help. I have so much more to learn!

“Should the sins of “certain important people” in the church be dealt with differently than others?”

I agree with Chris’ point–there is no place for favoritism in a community. I would expand that an consider what 1 Timothy 5:17-20 says. I think we need a plurality of leaders and those leaders need to be accountable. They deserve both “double honor” and “public reproof”.

I think it is highly beneficial and incredibly eye-opening to study Romans slowly and deliberately as you mention Ben. All I ever “learned” about Romans from the ubf methods of studying was “teach obedience” based on Romans 1:5 and “don’t be ashamed” based on Romans 1:16-17. Any serious bible teacher or pastor must know way more about Romans than those two verses.

I like your point Ben about considering the weight or emphasis of Romans. Considering the number of verses spent on a topic isn’t the be-all-end-all of understanding Scripture, but it helps. For example, the OT books heavily emphasis atonement. But the NT books barely mention atonement at all. That doesn’t mean atonement is not important, but it does mean we should be seeing the obvious point that Jesus is our atonement and that the NT speaks more about what to do in light of the atonement. If our preaching is hung up on proving or disproving various atonement theories, we probably are off track.

I think we need to continue to point out these flaws in our understanding, and the effect the flaws have had on us and those around us. I too fell into the trap of thinking that “younger brother” sins were worse than “older brother” sins. And yet it is nearly always the “older brother” type sins that really get God angry.

For example, Sodom and Gomorra were destroyed because of their older brother sin of mistreating the poor and needy. Ezekiel 16:48-50 would be a very good study to supplement Romans.

The epistle of James answers your last question very clearly: “My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism.”