Maybe this faith is what many leaders are lacking? Not only in UBF but in others as well? When I married (famously, infamously?) by faith, leaders in my ministry were more worried about the details than I was. I discovered a lot about the nature of the ministry I didn’t know.

Yet at the same time, I became insensitive to the pressure others felt and, though they were my friends, I reasoned myself into looking the other way.

Now, my marriage by faith, really was, by faith. I really did give it to God, not man. So in spite of all the bad and good of it, I realize that God has indeed been with me in it all. Might not have all been there, but God is “working it”.

Now, standing up for what is right and saying, “No.” Obviously, unhealthy leaders treat this negatively. I can’t help but feel that there is a great lack of faith to think that a person “below” you in the church could draw a line, or boundary, and completely forget that god might be training “you” through them, as god sent them, though you want them to follow you, since God sent you to them?

anyhow, sorry for the double post, I look forward to reading this book “soon.”

“Here’s a “bad is wrong” mindset from a recent UBF report that says, “Asia is like a spiritual wasteland and is full of idol worshipers…” Doesn’t the one who wrote the report not realize that the church can also easily become a spiritual wasteland of Pharisees and be full of those who worship their own church rather than be loving and embracing toward idol worshipers, as Jesus was?”

In a recent message (written at the headquarters and repeated by a leader in another chapter) we heard the Honorable Dr. S. L.’s phrasing, “Sheep are helpless and stupid and without a shepherd, they will die.” Excuse me, it’s actually a paraphrase.

Anyhow, for a ministry that calls Bible teachers (or any leader, if you’re lucky!) a “shepherd” and any Bible student (or anyone who comes, if you’re lucky!) a “sheep,” this is a really careless statement.

Especially since Jesus’ “shepherd” heart was for people who were more or less regarded as stupid and cursed by the religious establishment. Man, who wants to even come close to walking that fine line?!

Paul said, I celebrate my weakness and rejoice in it, because there God reveals his power and glory.

Anyhow, thanks for sharing about this book. I’ve been pondering some of the things you mentioned regarding it recently, myself!

We see the good and the bad poorly when we only try to define right and wrong. We see the good and the bad much better when we surrender to grace and accept love. This is the only way I was able to navigate the last four years.

So by doing what was wrong (and you knew it was wrong), you discovered goodness.

So yes I agree with your caution above–we need to stop redefining words. Good is good. Bad is bad. Righteousness cannot be redefined, and Christianity does not have the monopoly on righteousness. But when we talk about morality, the right/wrong of something, and whether something is a sin or not, we ought to pay attention to what Rohr is saying. There is no longer a sacred/secular divide when we come to the cross. God sends rain on the righteous (good) and the unrighteous (bad).

Perhaps I am to much of a simpleton, but I am understanding these things far more clearly than I ever did in the past when I only considered right/wrong behavior. In my mind, the gospel Jesus preached frees us from a righteousness bound by the entrapment of morality and enables us to form a new morality based on love.

My goodness no longer depends on making the right moral choices; my goodness is now dependent upon the love of God. Showing this love toward others/enemies/etc is the primary message Jesus brought to us. From the start, Luke 4, Jesus’ message was one of liberation and grace that surpasses the morality-based righteousness the teachers of the law had enforced.

So then Jesus was not an antinomian but he could eat and drink with prostitutes. Jesus was not preaching licentiousness but he could make wine for dozens of people to get drunk and be happy.

For me it is my relationships with girls. Many Christians teach that it is bad to date and be intimate with people before marriage. And for my part I regret that daily. But on the other hand it taught me that society has inflated the idea of intimacy and dating and relationships in general. That has caused young Christian men to put super high expectations of women (like I did once upon a time ago). But for my part I know from my experiences that this is an inflated view. So God used that and I thank him, but I wish I didn’t have to learn that way.

Sin separates us from God, and it is grace that despite this we have a relationship with him. But I don’t think sin belongs.

“Does it make sense that “right is bad and wrong is good”?”

What you present here makes sense, yes. I would not make this into an absolute however. Normally the right is the good. What you are uncovering here, in my mind, is what I call the intersection of morality and righteousness. (I am seeking a better word for “righteousness” but that word works for now).

When we focus only on morality (the right and wrong) we are prone to miss many things and harm many people, including ourselves. We need to consider morality alongside righteousness (the good and bad) of something or someone or some group.

Sometimes “right” is bad. For example, it is right (moral) to attend a weekly church service. But for some, for certain times in their life, attending a church service can be bad for them.

One thing that really disturbed me at the end of my ubf time was how strongly the leaders emphasized “right is always good”. In other words, they kept insisting that every negative thought or action is bad and to be condemned, while every positive thought or action is good and always to be celebrated. This simply is not the case.

Jesus knew this well. His gospel is founded on understanding these things. Love and grace are the keys to unlocking these truths. How can your righteousness surpass that of the Pharisees? How could bible study be a bad thing?

Do you have a “right is bad and wrong is good” story? – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/01/20/when-right-is-bad-and-wrong-is-good/#sthash.LuC9FFvv.dpuf