To me, the Bible seems to bear the unmistakable impressions of (1) human beings whose culture and world views change from epoch to epoch as well as (2) God’s multifaceted wisdom and image. We often miss this perhaps because we feel that it’s safer to have a set definition of what Scripture is and how it came about and who God is. One of the greatest dangers that Christians (or anyone for that matter) can fall into is to fail to foster a mind guided by critical and informed thinking. That is where divisive fundamentalism, tribalism, sectarianism and antiquated and deficient views of God stems from.

The ancient Jews understood this. They had no issue with debating heatedly for hours and then leaving 2 or more opposing ideas on the table. Christians don’t seem to get this.

What makes this kind of dialogue impossible is the idealistic and self-centered thinking that insists on an extremist position.

In all my debates, I am quite open to being wrong. I have been wrong on so many things. But I make strong statements because that is how I learn.

If someone can persuade me to believe ubf is the glorious church they often claim, I will believe it and admit I’m wrong. If someone can convince me I am wrong about gay marriage, I will admit I’m wrong. But in either case, I demand to know why I’m wrong. For what reasons? That is my main concern. No longer will I just crawl into my hermit cave and sulk in self-pity. I will stand on what I say.

It’s the story of two people who were on polar opposite sides of the gay marriage issue and how through messy and painful dialogue they began to embrace one another. They talk about dialogue being “redemptive”, meaning that though two people may never fully agree on a particular issue, their interaction will ultimately make both more human, more empathetic and more alive. My prayer and deepest desire is for all of us, whether we are in or out of UBF, to be able to dialogue like this.

What I am finding is that coming “out” of ubf is very very similar to those who come “out” of the closet.

I further am delving into how the first churches walked through the wall of hostility of their time: the circumcision vs uncircumcision debates. They are our model. They did resolve the hostility. That is my claim.

I think that I am beginning to see where you’re coming from Brian. Accepting people where they are and rather than labeling them pejoratively for what traditionally has been seen as sinful behavior, walk with them through that particular journey in a loving and compassionate manner.

I like this: “The same automatic fear of having repressed problems uncovered will grip and bind Christians unless they are deeply assured that they are “accepted in the Beloved,”

This speaks precisely to the gifts our gender and sexual minority friends will bring to the church: safe places to process our genuine realities and narratives with deep assurance of love and acceptance as children of God and as the Bride of our Lord.

My primary claim is that our gay and lesbian and transgender and queer and intersex and asexual brothers and sisters are deepening the meanings of the Bride narratives in the bible.

My premise is a love-first theology of lambheartedness that begins with the following affirmations:

1. Authority of Scripture
I am not apostate. I have gone “outside the gates” at times.

2. Desire to please and obey God
I am not an anarchist. I do not have all the answers.

3. Value of moral fortitude
I am not an antinomian

4. Gratitude toward the church
I am not a sectarian

5. Love for all people
I am not a humanist. I value the Divine

Well put. So just let us to ourselves so that we can get all of our garbages out and when we’re finished you can come back and engage us with more of your illuminating dialogue.

Seriously, if lord helps me I’m no gonna engage here anymore. You guys commit the same mistakes that you accuse of us doing.

In fact, I suggest in order to help our angry brothers here to get back to functioning life. We those in ubf take moratorium for few years.

This way we can help angry members here to get back and start living lives. Otherwise discussion here goes nowhere. So now, because we are from ubf we don’t have the write to talk about our views on homosexuality. In that what some you are affirming.

I think the more people like me and mr kim engage here the worse it is for memebers.

More anger, fury, time spent in front of screen, like today I was pretty much nailed to screen.

I wonder whether, if you did not realize this all these years, and thought (or pretended to yourself and others) you were happy, then have you been actually happy or unhappy all the time? ;-)

“Many areas of the church … are full of desperately anxious and bitterly contentious people. Law without grace provokes sin …and aggravates it into some of its ugliest expressions… Psychoanalysts speak of the “resistance” patients have toward the discovery of traumatic material hidden in the unconscious. The same automatic fear of having repressed problems uncovered will grip and bind Christians unless they are deeply assured that they are “accepted in the Beloved,” received by God as if they were perfectly righteous because their guilt is canceled by the righteousness of Christ laid to their account…. God simply wants honesty, openness and a trusting reliance on Christ our Savior.”

It brief, repressed anger is a suboptimal understanding of the marvelous gospel of the grace of God.

In my initial years as a Christian, I was for the most part (mostly inwardly) irritated, upset, intolerant, aggravated, frustrated, incensed at anyone who did not believe like me, live like me, think like me, prepare Bible study like me, teach the Bible like me, disciple others like me, and this list can just go on and on. In short, I was “Mr. UBF on steroids!” I think I was kind of a poster boy of sorts.

After 25 years, I realize that it was such an unhappy way to live. By God’s grace alone, God has helped me to be common (not elitist) and inclusive (not exclusive) and for the most part rather ignorant (rather than a know it all!).

As a result, I have been accused of being liberal, loose, licentious, relativistic, not absolute, overboard on grace (without truth), freedom (without limit), rest (and thus lazy), unconditional love (without “training”), etc, and I heard that I have become a man with no honor and “no face.”

But the amazing thing is that I’m as happy as on the day of my conversion and my honeymoon, as I often palpably experience the presence of God’s unfathomable grace that has nothing to do with how much I work, or how much I binge watch Netflix shows to overcome my current state of jetlag.

Though I’m not knowledgeable enough to comment on this LGBT issue, I love reading your comments! Keep it up.

I hear you Charles. Those are the reasons I refuse to “shop around” for a church. I couldn’t bear to sit through such things while I am recovering from ubf.

Our family happened upon a very Christ-centric, grace-based local North American Baptist Church. They are non-affirming but think along the lines of what you shared here Joe.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2011/09/01/two-smacks-max-1/

I’m very disappointed and put off by the worship experiences at the evangelical churches I’ve visited. Worship is missing. There are lectures, self-help / good Christian advice, political posting, performances, and celebrity preachers. There is often a lot of focus on how wretched people are or how troubled they might be (with references to floods, storms, and trials), and calls to “come back.” But celebrating, adoring, and being engaged in Jesus and his body, a not one-sided fellowship with other, is missing to me, both in face to face fellowship and in listening and considering Scripture and the world we live in today.

mrkim, since I made a good faith effort to answer your questions, I will now ask you something in return.

Is slavery (holding people as slaves against their will) a sin, or is it okay? How do you know, based on the Bible?

This is not a trick question. I really want to know how you would approach this.

I would suggest considering the “Redemptive Movement Hermeneutic” that William Webb suggests. Here is one link introducing the approach:

the Redemptive Movement Hermeneutical approach to biblical ethics

In any case, I reject most static approaches to the bible. Perhaps I will share an article or two on this. Note: Webb is highly non-affirming, but I love his hermeneutical principles and have tried to incorporate them into my processing of the gospel and Christian ethics:

“The primary aspect of Webb’s approach is unmistakably movement. Webb presents the RMH in opposition to what he calls a ‘static’ hermeneutic, which only considers the isolated words of the text.
For Webb, “Movement is (crucial) meaning.” He is particularly looking for change and improvement in the ethical systems of the covenant community, both in opposition to the ANE/GRworlds and the previous ethical systems within the covenant community itself. By combining these elements the interpreter discovers the underlying ‘redemptive spirit’ of the biblical text.”

In this current environment, it is helpful for me to step back from homosexuality and ask the less obvious but more fundamental questions that are lurking in the background, namely:

* What is the gospel?
* What is love, and how are Christians called to express it?
* What is a sensible way to approach the Bible (Old and New Testaments) and what is an appropriate way to understand Scriptural authority?

Rather than focusing solely on homosexuality and LGBT issues, I will talk about the bigger picture of what the Bible teaches me about human sexuality and marriage. I will not deal with questions of a more scientific nature (e.g. Are certain people born gay?) because I don’t think the Bible addresses those in any specific way.

####

I believe that Genesis chapter 2 has something important to teach us about God’s designs for sexual relationship. Jesus certainly thought so. A good case can be made that a lifelong, committed monogamous relationship between a man and a woman is a biblical norm. But it is also evident that many important people in God’s history did not follow that norm, and God seems curiously unconcerned about it. For example, the patriarch Jacob is the namesake of the nation of Israel. In Hebrews 11 he is listed twice among the righteous heroes of faith. Is he in heaven? I guess so. But as far as I can tell, Jacob never repented of his polygamous lifestyle, and God never challenged him on that issue. (In his context, I’m not even sure what that repentance would mean.) Many Christians will say that it is absolutely essential to marry someone who shares your faith. Marrying an unbeliever is considered to be seriously wrong. Maybe it is wrong. But many heroes in the Bible had interfaith marriages. Moses married the daughter of the priest of Midian, and Joseph also married the daughter of a pagan priest. There is no indication that either of these women first converted to their husbands’ faith, and God never seems to challenge them on that issue. Hannah (the mother of Samuel) was in a polygamous marriage, and God never told her to repent of that, and her husband is also portrayed as a good man. The biblical pictures of marriage are not easy to navigate. Until I have a better grasp of what is going on here, I’m going to refrain from taking strong positions on some of these things.

One thing I do see in the Bible: God seems willing to meet people as they are, wherever they are, and he wants to intervene in their own life-contexts. Sometimes God’s designs for people involve a radical change in their sexual expression and relationships. But sometimes God’s priorities for them seem to lie elsewhere.

Jesus is calling us to shed our binary thinking and sin-centric gospels. The triune thought fabric and grace-centric gospels are what change the world.

To repeatedly ask “What is sin?” is an Old Covenant mindset that still needs to be transformed. Might we move on to asking a New Covenant mindset question, like “What is God up to? What good or bad fruit is being born?”

John 9 is my favorite example of what I am trying to say.

Thanks for pointing out those prior ubfriends articles. Ben’s post about sin is very relevant to what I was hoping to discuss here. Ben wrote “But Paul’s point is not how horrible Gentile sinners are, but that the Jews–who were religious, moral and law abiding–were just as bad, if not worse!”

I was hoping to hear different worship experiences. What happens when we sinners come before a holy God with the cross of Jesus among us?

My gospel is becoming more and more powerful to me now that I am adding in the concept of holiness to grace and peace.

[Galatians 2]

I’m not making any hidden point. I want to process these questions to explore the gospel beyond the “deathbed repentance” ideas that are so often mixed in with the gospel.

I learned a lot by pondering the impasse the first century church had to face. Can you imagine facing the circumcision party?? Thank God we only have Democrats and Republicans in America to contend with!

The first church had this issue: Peter, John and James were siding with the circumcision camp (not strongly but they didn’t eat with uncircumcised Christians). They seemed to believe that we don’t judge the uncircumcised but we cannot condone their choice and should not have fellowship with them.

How in the world could you resolve the “be circumcised” group with the “no need to be circumcised group?” There is no more clear command in the Old Covenant than “be circumcised” to show yourself a true believer.

But the first church is our model. They saw that the cross killed the wall of hostility. They found common ground in the gospel of grace and the need to help the poor and needy. This is the way forward in any divisive issue facing Christians.

My agenda has nothing to do with allowing orgies or changing all non-affirmers into affirmers, but with finding Christian unity in the gospel of grace, the gospel of peace, the gospel of glory, the gospel of salvation and most of all the gospel of the kingdom.

Mr. Kim, I know that Brian and Chris and even others have been quick and ready to confront you, but none of their language is insulting. I would agree that they make you uncomfortable or even at times feel a little condescended to or patronized. You must keep in mind that for many people who are exiting or have exited UBF the communication felt exactly the same when remaining UBF members would speak up.

But on this topic what are your very basic positions?
What is sin? – Being homosexually inclined? or The act itself?
You say you must not judge, but how then would you handle a Bible student who confessed they were LGBTQAI? What kind of counselling would you give them? How would you pray for them?

If you read one of Brian’s articles in 2012, he did not even know how he would approach the issue. But, he did know how he would not approach the issue if confronted with anyone who still came to Jesus knowing the normative feeling about these sexual and identity issues.

I appreciate that you keep coming back to dialogue, but it is important not to get too emotional before you even know where Brian or Chris stand on this issue. As for me, I am where Brian appeared to be in 2012. I want to keep dialogue and an open door for such people in that situation. They are not condemned to hell. I cannot articulate any better than that at this time.

I won’t deny that I really felt like ripping off a litany of swear words, but the Spirit restrained me. This time.

Again, I’m wondering if you realize how you are responding. I’m simply commenting about your own choice of words that accuse and insult others as stupid, immature, pig, hateful, etc. I’m simply pointing it out.

Now in your comment and response, you are accusing me of blaming you or being bothered by you. I’m not blaming you. Honestly, I’m not bothered by you either.

I’m simply pointing out what you are doing based on the insulting words you use to describe others.

I’m NOT saying this. But to illustrate my point, what you are saying is like someone saying to you, “UBF missionaries are stupid, childish, immature, hypocrites, self-righteous wife-beaters who act so holy in church while they are too proud to humbly learn proper English after leaving Korea for several decades.” (Sorry! I will never ever say this to anyone, but I’m simply trying to illustrate my point to help you understand what you are doing and saying based on your offensive comments.)

What you are saying (with your insulting, accusing, demeaning comments) about Brian, Chris, Joe, Matt and others is exactly this.

Joe,
I wonder your opinion of homosexuality. Is it sin or not? Is it God’s choice or human being’s choice to be LGTBs?

I’m simply wondering if you realize what you are doing based on your own words.

You have called/accused/insulted various commenters on this website as “stupid,” “immature,” “pig,” “hateful,” “angry,” while each of the people you accuse and insult as such respond to you kindly, graciously and charitably without using any of the offensive insulting demeaning language as you.

Jesus said, “I am gentle and humble in heart” (Mt 11:29). I wonder if you ever think or consider whether or not what you have expressed in recent comments reveals Jesus’ gentleness and humility.

And, Paper beats rock.

I see a permanent impasse for dialogue with Mr. Kim and anyone else. I think it’s very important to understand the background from which everyone is approaching this topic: ie. intolerance because it goes against God’s creation and plan… or openness to struggle with the best or most suitable way to include LGBTQAI in a Christian context…

That being said, I almost feel that this needs a part two or at least a more clear definition because it has strayed way of course from Brian’s intended article.

Here are two of Brian’s previous articles, maybe they can help clarify to readers his position-changing position on the subject.
http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/05/14/glbt-evangelism/
http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/03/book-review-god-and-the-gay-christian/

Here is a unique article by Yohan Hwang:
http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/06/17/lgbt-marriage-and-singleness/

Here is one of the many articles from Ben about sin:
http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/11/23/misunderstanding-sin/

Anyway, when I read the juvenile insults I felt like there is greater problem at understanding the point for all of this. I just get the feeling that no one is fully catching the position from each person. I suppose, it is supposed to be an all or nothing argument.

Later, in personal conversation, he told me that he was unable to continue the active dialogue on UBFriends, not because he didn’t want to, but because he didn’t have the necessary stamina. He said that the conversations with us were very taxing, consuming every ounce of his mental and emotional energy, because he was so unaccustomed to the environment, and he also needed to constantly look up terms in the dictionary and other sources just to understand what we were talking about. And he said that the vast majority of UBF missionaries wouldn’t and couldn’t ever engage us in dialogue, because (these are almost his exact words) they have been in UBF for so long that UBF is all they know, and they are incapable of discussion outside of the UBF environment.

Brain, don’t show your immaturity and stupidity. Your bible interpretation sucks. Don’t do it. Pearl hurts pig!!!

http://www.theonion.com/articles/college-encourages-lively-exchange-of-idea,38496/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview%3A1%3ADefault&recirc=college

This exchange with Mr. Kim reflects poorly on the quality of UBF missionary training. Within UBF environments, social interactions are so carefully controlled and dissenting opinions are so effectively suppressed that, no matter how long you are there, you never learn how to engage and communicate charitably with people who disagree with you. This is why some missionaries behave so badly when they are challenged. If they dare to venture outside of the UBF bubble, they are shocked to discover that people are no longer deferring to them. There is no longer a critical mass of missionaries around them to maintain (what they call a “spiritual environment” but is really just) an atmosphere of strict control. Very soon, they feel that they are being treated with gross disrespect, because no one is bowing down to them or humoring them or recognizing their honorary titles and positions. An environment where everyone is equal, where no position or viewpoint has an a priori privilege, feels to them like a hostile place. So they respond with hostility, and then blame everyone else for being so hardened and unreasonable and stupid and angry and so on, and then leave the discussion with an air of self-righteousness, vowing to never engage the critics again.

Did you ever consider why Jesus said not to throw pearls at pigs? Pearls hurt pigs. Throwing pearls may cause the pigs to return the favor. We know Jesus does not want stone-throwing in His kingdom. Perhaps He also does not want pearl-throwing?

I’m willing to start all over and reset this conversation. You are welcome here. I very much appreciate the fact that you shared your pain here.

Maybe we could go back to my first question on the other article. I was not asking rhetorically. I really want to know what you liked about the anonymous response to Joe. Many of our readers had issues with the letter, including me. What did we miss?

Here, you guys can curse at and judge anyone, nothing happen to you but someone say against you, you cannot bear it and say all kinds of dirty words.
No wonder that ubf leaders don’t respond to you guys at all. Do whatever you guys want. But remember people are not stupid as you guys are.
I admit that I was wrong to have hope that you might be reasonable to listen.

Congratulations, Mr. Kim, you are embodying the very thing that I have been combatting in my service to the Lord for the last several years!

Things like this are what concerns me about raising children in this organization.

Your position is obvious, but your complete lack of respect for anyone who doesn’t worship Dr. Lee has blinded you to the fact that Christ’s blood has purchased all of us.

We have a responsibility as Christians to call out un-Christianlike behavior–the same responsibility you claim to be taking up. Yet you refuse to acknowledge that anyone else can take it up against you if you are walking in the wrong way.

God have mercy on your soul for the way you treat people who belong to him.

“If anyone doesn’t have the same opinion with you, you call a cult.”

Many people have different opinions than me. There are in fact several ubfriends commenters who are non-affirming and probably would like to have a civil dialogue about LGBTQIA issues. But that is rather tough to do with your interjections.

mrkim, it is not that I call everyone who disagrees with me a cult, it is just you and the ubf organization that I call a cult.

http://canyonwalkerconnections.com/romans-127-28/

In the other thread you wrote, “That is why I say this site is full of garbage.” Why then didn’t you expect pigs?

This isn’t the first time I’ve heard a UBF Korean missionary unable to hold a conversation and try to get out of it by using Jesus’ words to call the other party a pig and elevate themselves in preciousness.

You asked about this: “They are still arguing about the issue. Can some ideas of a few scientis decline the authority of the Bible?”

My answer is no. It does not matter what science or medicine finds out. Sin is sin. Abuse of sex, excess of sex and abuse of authority, all kinds of abuse are wrong.

Science and medicine and all kinds of study does not change that. Such study however needs to help shape our interactions with each other. As our knowledge of humanity increases we ought to revisit Scripture and learn and grow.

I suppose you can chalk up my faulty bible study to 15,000 hours of world-class ubf training over 24 years :)

I do believe the original bible writers were inspired deeply by the Holy Spirit.

I do not believe all the bible translators since 1900 have been equally inspired. Many of them were inspired yes, but some of them are not so inspired.

No I don’t know how to be completely free from all sins. Why? Because that is not possible. You and I and all people will die with sins in our blood.

What are you depending on Jesus to do?

Your way of dealing with sins is to ignore them and just hope for forgiveness in the future? That is not Christianity. That is more like an Eastern religion way of dealing with sin using Christian terms.

“How do I know the answer? Do you know how to completely be free from all our sins? That is why we depend on Jesus and his blood. That is the way we deal with sins. How about you?”

This answer tells me you know nothing about how to be a Christian pastor. Your thinking is very non Christian.

No I do not agree with this thought.

>> How do I know the answer? Do you know how to completely be free from all our sins? That is why we depend on Jesus and his blood. That is the way we deal with sins. How about you?

I ask you again the same question because you avoided it. Do you agree that Apostle Paul mentioned in Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6 homosexuality as sin but we shouldn’t judge sinners?

You just ignore it because you cannot answer it and say that I manipulate and I am a cult.

Could you answer me?
Should we obey God and His words or the opinions of a few scientists?

1. You insinuate that I hate UBF just because I say UBF has commited serious sin. With the same logic I could insinuate that you hate gay people because you say they are sinning. Am I right?

So stop equating criticism or calls to repentance with hate unless you want that to be called driven by hate yourself, when you call young students and gay people to repent.

2. You claim that we’re just “gossiping”. Did you ever hear the concept of “witnesses” who should be heard? We have a lot more than two or three witnesses. Let’s discuss concrete issues, some of which Joe has listed on this website. What about the forced abortions by Samuel Lee? Are they just gossip? In fact that have now been confirmed internally even by Sarah Barry and Mark Yoon. But unless UBF officially admitted these crimes, it’s very convenient to keep on claiming this is all “gossip”. That’s why I’m adamantly insisting that UBF needs to publicly admit that these things – and many others that have been pointed out by reformers – have in fact happened. If UBF keeps lying about its own past and covering it up, they’re not a church, but a cult, even if they change outwardly.

Your cult manipulation techniques no longer work on me. You continually skip over my questions, dictate your own idea and then ask me wild questions of your own.

If you want to have a discussion here, you are going to have to start by continuing our conversation we already had.

You said “homo sex” is sin. If that is so, then my question remains: “How does a person stop being a homosexual? What would repentance look like for them?”

The bigger question is how do we deal with sin? If you would like to share your thoughts on that, please do so. If not, then Joe’s article above is highly relevant.

I am not joking around. There are many issues that need to be discussed here. For example, If you want to talk about sin then we should be talking about the sin of authoritarianism as Chris pointed out or perhaps more relevant, the sin of molestation.

They are still arguing about the issue. Can some ideas of a few scientis decline the authority of the Bible?

Read more: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2015/04/the-problem-of-irrational-unteachable-christians/

For the sake of argument, let’s assume homosexuality is a sin. (Please stop using the term “homo sex”. That is a Konglish word that means nothing to me. You are in America so please use English.)

How does a person stop being a homosexual? What would repentance look like for a gay or lesbian or transgender or intersexual person?

Are you aware of the DNA research regarding chromosomes? Do you realize that at least 30 combinations of XX and XY chromosomes have been observed in human beings? Where do these people who are XXY or XXX or X fit into the “male and female” binary structure?

“And Apostle Paul clearly says that homosexual is sin along with stealing, murdering, being greedy and etc.”

Why do you think Paul clearly says this is sin? What verse are you referring to?

This is a fascinating topic! And the very topic that got me so excited about the bible, the church and theology again! The gospel is so amazing.

Here are my sources.

The best, most comprehensive study on the history of the word “homosexual” (including medical, religious and secular history) is my new friend Kathy Baldock’s book. If you read “Torn” this the next book to read:

Walking the Bridgeless Canyon

Here is a great theological/academic source:

An Argument against the use of the word homosexual in English Bible translations

Even the anti-gay folks know this fact:

CARM – first use of the word homosexual in English Bible translations was in 1946

I see a fundamental flaw in the idea of “We should help them to repent of their sin and come back to God.” John 16:8 says this is the job of God, of the Holy Spirit. We are not to convict people of their sin. I have tried this, and it does not work.

Why do we think we can usurp the role of the Holy Spirit? I have no intention to “lead ubf leaders to repentance”. I will speak up but it is up to the Spirit to cause repentance. Why have ubf leaders not repented? Well the answer for me is that the Spirit has not poured out repentance yet.

This is now gets into the amazing, all-surpassing effervescent gospel that I rarely gave a second thought to while under the yoke of ubf training. I tended to dismiss the question “What is the gospel?”

Jesus said we must surpass the righteousness of the Pharisees to get into the kingdom. How can we do that?

But this is fascinating. Do we need to repent and clean ourselves up before receiving the grace of God? I say no, grace is grace. Grace moves us to repent but grace first makes us clean as we are.

So to me, repentance is never “repent of your sins”. Can anyone find where the bible says “repent of your sins”? It is amazing to me that this is not the bible’s teaching. The bible teaches “repentance” and “forgiveness of sins”. Where did the “of sins” get added onto repentance?

Repentance stands alone. To repent is to change your mindset to that of grace. To repent is to desire mercy not sacrifice. To repent is to change your mind from a spiritual director who governs the moral conformance of other people.

Mr. Kim gave the classic example recently, “We should help them to repent of their sin and come back to God.”

Yet when we, here, or in our ministries, attempt to help UBF leaders “to repent of their sin and come back to God,” we are labeled as attackers, complainers, bitter.

Maybe we learned the wrong way, from UBF. How many students leave because they can’t deal with the methods of bringing sin out for repentance? Don’t you realize that this is exactly how people feel when you take the assumption of their sin?

Why do you say that homosexuality is a sin? Do you know the history of that word and that it was first added to the bible translations in 1946? What about before 1946, was homosexuality not a sin then?

“Whatever I say, you are ready to attack.”

It is called a conversation, mrkim. I understand that in your Korean mind and ubf ideology a question = attack.

But you have to understand that this website is a public discussion forum. We will have questions or comments about anything said here.

I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am trying to have a conversation to understand you. This whole thing recently started when I asked a simple question: “Why do you think this is the best article ever?”

I still would like to know why you think that way. But all you did was say that I am a blind fool. Then you went off of all kinds of other topics.

Our readers deserve to know, mrkim, that you are a Korean ubf missionary. They deserve to know that your shenanigans here are the standard operation procedure for Korean ubf missionaries.

I put up with such foolishness for over 20 years. I enabled the Korean ubf ego. I translated the words of Korean ubf missionaries over and over again until they sounded palpable to my American ears and to other “sheep” so they could accept you.

I am fully convinced the only reason ubf is still here 50 years later is because many of us were Balaam’s donkey, silently enabling your authority.

But I was the fool. I let you Korean ubf missionaries ride my back like Balaam’s donkey.

And then I spoke :)

SUMMARY REBUKE OF KOREAN AUTHORITY IN UBF

The reason is because there are gay and lesbian and bisexual and transgender and queer and intersex people at ubf.

Some of those who reached out to me for help are both gay and at ubf. Imagine the pressure this creates, to feel the oppression of gay people and the oppression of ubf. My heart aches for them because suicide seems like the way out at times.

We already know there are numerous cases of ubf people who committed suicide before or after leaving/being kicked out. Add being gay on top of that.

mrkim is correct about one thing. He said “We shouldn’t hate or judge them but embrace them as Christ did.” I agree. We should embrace and love our gender and sexual minority friends and relatives. They have much to teach us. Their sexual and gender expression is not sin and not something to repent. Our treatment of them is something straight people need to repent.

Jesus spoke of male and female, yes, but right after that Jesus spoke about 3 different kinds of eunuchs. The first person the gospel was witnessed to in the first church was the Ethiopian eunuch and Philip said nothing about the Old Covenant regulations. Eunuchs do not exactly equate to our modern notion of homosexuality but my point remains: the bible and Jesus recognize that there are genders outside of “male and female”.

I might write another book entitled “Hey white straight guys, you are not in charge anymore!” The wineskin of gender binary is bursting all around us. Women can be pastors and leaders of all kinds. Gays and lesbians and transgender can be pastors and leaders of all kinds.

I heard the most amazing sermon from a transwoman last week. I heard about how gifted trans people are with empathy, and that they make supreme worship leaders.

I have so much more to say. If anyone wants to know my thoughts on this topic, let me know. I have a 4 part seminar prepared.

lol, yea but that’s ok because I’m apparently a heretic going to hell in a handbasket. At least I’ll have all my gay and lesbian friends with me!

But seriously, I hear you Charles. I haven’t actually returned to church yet. My heart was just so moved by worship. That’s really what I was hoping to discuss here.

I spent 5 days worshiping and studying and listening and learning with gay, straight and lesbian Christians. It was so amazing. I learned that Galatians 3:28 is indeed the reformation vision of the kingdom of God.