I know this line of condescending thought very well. It is prevalent. And yet people think that students cut off the fellowship (stop having Bible study) because of this website. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I’m not the sure that this is entirely true. I think that this kind of mindset leads to interactions with students that are unnecessarily top-down in nature. And if these students are distracted by other issues in UBF, it’s because UBF has refused to address said issues in an adequate manner. The solution to the problem you stated is contained in your statement:

“What I mean is that we should struggle with the entire ubf’s problem.”

The degree to which we can help students to meet Jesus is directly tied to the UBF’s willingness or unwillingness to talk about these problems. Jesus says that he is the light of the world and that anyone who believes in him shall not remain in darkness. I and others here have personally experienced UBF shutting out this light. It is indeed very difficult to help one soul, especially when there are other forces at play tying your hands behind your back.

:) Love you DavidW!

Ben, I have 2 articles in mind. I want to first explain what I meant below in regard to Alan’s comment.

Joe, you are very close to what I was thinking. Actually Joe your comment is better than mine and I want to process what you are saying about the psychological aspect of this. Such a thing is fascinating to me. For now I’ll share my thoughts in my first article about this.

I’ll consider a second article later this week about the 5 qualities of ubf (which Westloop ubf has redeemed).

And UBF leaders and committed members are likely to dismiss Brian’s comments as absurd.

I’m halfway through this book http://www.amazon.com/Willful-Blindness-Ignore-Obvious-Peril/dp/0802777961 and it’s really helpful to explain why.

For example, in response to Brian’s point #3, UBF leaders will say, “No one is manipulating me. Everything that I do in UBF, I do willingly, by my own decision.”

From their perspective, that is true. They do not perceive themselves as being pressured or manipulated.

Experimental psychology has demonstrated that people are notoriously unaware of how they are being influenced, both in their opinions and in their perceptions of physical reality.

“The distinguishing feature of conformity is that it is implicit and feels voluntary.”

“The scientists concluded that the areas of the brain responsible for perception are altered by social influences… When asked in a debriefing questionnaire how they explained their conforming errors, the participants had no sense of having conformed; they believed that they has all reached the same decisions purely serendipitously. They may have thought that they’d made a free choice where in fact, they had not.”

Also, Brian, you may want to consider officially making your two demands from four years ago to the Ethics Committee, similar to what Joe did with his open letter.

I was trying to guess what Brian meant.

My comment about labels was meant to apply to Mr. Kim as much as anyone else. I was not denying your experiences or trying invalidate your conclusions about them but was trying to help the discussion itself to focus on the experiences. Please don’t try to label me because of your perception of what being in the “ubf echelon” means.

I am not sure what the MythBusters/Dr Who quote is.

Here is what I observed. Please make allowances for exaggeration and hyperbole.

Alan (a UBF leader) suddenly jumped in to the conversation and began by saying, “However it is done, labeling people or groups of people is often not useful in discussion or in understanding others.”

Later, Alan said that it was not meant to be “a slap in the face.”

Alan’s original comment could have been meant as
* a not-so-subtle rebuke of Brian for making offensive generalizations about Korean missionaries, or
* a not-so-subtle rebuke of mrkimmathclass for any number of offensive things he said, or
* both.

We don’t know what Alan’s intent was, because Alan didn’t say what he meant clearly or directly. Rather, Alan tried to stand above the situation, making a general statement about principles that was intended to instruct and teach others. Thus Alan, perhaps unknowingly, placed himself into the role of a teacher/leader/expert/disciplemaker, casting Brian and mrkimubf and anyone else within earshot as the student/follower/novice/disciple.

This is a technique that I recognize, because we typical Harvard graduates do it all the time. But if I learned it at Harvard, I perfected it in UBF.

Ever since UBF missionaries landed on American soil, they cast themselves into the role of teachers/leaders/experts/disciplemakers who were going to save poor Americans from our worthless, namby-pamby, lazy-ass compromised cultural ChristianityLite with their potent, high-octane, ultra-disciplined, paramilitary version of ChristianityPlus and remake natives into their image as world class spiritual Marines and Green Berets. That attitude of superiority has never been put aside, and in one way or another, it still present almost in every interaction that UBF leaders have with their members, former members and nonmembers.

“Sorry Brian, what I said what was not meant to be a slap in the face.”

Please take a step back for a moment… this comment reveals the heart of my issues with ubf trained people and ubf leaders in the ubf echelon such as yourself. All that is wrong with ubf and the one thing ubf needs to change to become a Christian church is captured in this one snapshot. This is the seed of hypocrisy that needs changing.

To our silent readers: Everything wrong with ubf and every single reason I say ubf is a harmful cult are summed up in that statement above made by the Vice President of UBF.

Let that sink in. If some people process this thought, I’ll come back and explain what I mean by this.

“Now I can say that it is useless to discuss here.”

Hasn’t that been your purpose all along? Your very first comment to us was a drive-by praise bomb on the first pro-ubf article we’ve had in awhile,and that is quite revealing. You steam-rolled the discussions into other articles just to show how anti-ubf some of us are here.

If any ubf person does not like the way I interact, then you should probably not have trained me so well! I am the result of 24 years of ubf training with one exception–I am no longer loyal or obedient to the Korean ubf authorities.

If anyone sees something inspiring or encouraging in my words, it is probably due to my connections with Christian pastors and my processing of my ubf training.

What Brian wrote probably sounds deeply offensive. It contains exaggeration and hyperbole, as human conversation often does. A Korean missionary could very well object to this, saying that Brian has exaggerated and because of that his comment should be dismissed and he should be ignored. A missionary could use this as justification for refusing to talk to Brian or to any vocal critic of UBF.

But with some allowance for hyperbole, my observations and experiences agree with Brian’s statement. Some missionaries have been willing to listen and talk about these difficult subjects. But at the end of the day, their response (at best) is basically what Brian said: “There are two sides to that story…” I know one missionary who doesn’t do that, but he is no longer functioning as a ubf missionary. It might seem unfair to diss all Korean missionaries as acting like mrkimubf. But in my experience, his reactions are the prototypical, modal response (except for silence).

I didn’t say, “they don’t help” but they are “often not useful in discussion or understanding others.” But your counterpoint is well taken.

The United States has conducted a census every ten years since 1790. In every census, there has been a question about race, but the wording of the question has changed every time, because the meaning and perception of racial categories and labels is always in flux. One of the changes proposed for the 2020 census is the inclusion of a new racial category for Middle Eastern or North African (MENA). We published a notice about this in the Federal Register to elicit public comment. About 30,000 responses came in, with more than 96% in favor of adding MENA. This is a label that some people really want to apply to themselves, for good reasons.

Mr. Kim, it is not useless to discuss here on ubfriends, but, you cannot come here and demand that people not share their honest experience after being in and serving at a UBF chapter. If you wanted to know why people have called UBF a cult, just read the comments.

Mr. Kim, you have failed to answer many questions and in fact you jumped out and over to this article instead of answering questions about sexuality and sin.

People are giving you a lot of their time and energy – many of us are overlooking David’s article, which was actually his sermon!!!

Why does the label of cult bother you so much? Who do you think of when you hear that word? Shinchonji?

The fact is you keep emphasizing that UBF shepherds/missionaries teach the Bible. That may be so explicitly, but implicitly all UBF leaders teach their unwritten oral law and code. Most matters in life are met with imperatives and failure to comply with the story line results in shaming and/or training of some sort.

People have already made clear that the UBF Bible study is not satisfactory because of the proof texting to support campus mission and the UBF life styled community.

If you were going to ask, yes, I am in UBF, but I do see these issues as important and worth making a dialogue or because I too have experienced a lot of questionable things while in the ministry.

You are a high-profile leader of a high-pressure, authoritarian Korean-led group like ubf. AW, you are someone who can make great impact to this organization. So for you to say “labels don’t help” is a slap in the face.

I’ve learned so much from the gay and lesbian community in this matter:

What you are doing when you take labels away

1) making it harder to combat oppression
2) inhibiting communication, in the most basic sense
3) helping the people who think we don’t exist
4) contributing to heteronormativity (in our case ubf-normity)
5) telling us that we don’t deserve things that make us feel good

Aside from what we are calling each other, from what I know pretty much everyone commenting here is, by the grace of God, quite a decent person.

I empathize deeply with Mr. Kim, but Joe, Brian, Chris, Charles, Matt and others who have spoken out here are not wrong. And some of us, while genuinely trying to serve Jesus in UBF, are profoundly ashamed of some things that have been done in the name of UBF and really want to do something constructive about it.

Yea our 17,451 comments, 571 articles by 46 authors over 5 years equates to not being open to talk… our allowing you to come here anc call us blind, foolish pigs means and respond with you means we are not open to talk… good grief mrkim!

“I believe that many people already talked to you before and felt the same I do. Only one-sided talking and criticizing is not discussion.”

BINGO! Yep, the Korean ubf missionaries are SO predictable. They talked to me the same way you speak here. And yes it is only one-sided talking — YOUR side! ubf Koreans always say “There are 2 sides to every story.” And yet they are unwilling to hear our side. What they mean is there is the praise-ubf/good/godly side and the dark/anti-ubf/evil side.

Hmm… I guess I need to go directly to UBF leaders and talk to them privately and respectfully about the problems I have seen and experienced.

Never thought of that before.

Thanks for the helpful tip!

If ubf does not want to be labeled a cult then they should prove themselves to not be a cult. mrkim has only deepened the public perception that ubf is indeed a cult.

The starting point for ubf leaders would be to accept my two demands I have made repeatedly for 4 years:

1) Admit the abuse. Confess the wrongdoing that has happened in nearly all ubf chapters for decades.

2) Release the bonds. Declare that sheep do not have to obey their personal shepherds.

Then they should work on fixing the flawed un-Christian KOPAHN shepherding theology. Namely these 5 points to begin with:

1) Family neglect.

The first reason ubf is a cult is because they teach neglect of family. Using proof-texted ideas from the bible, they claim that it is more spiritual and pleasing to God to sacrifice your family and be mission-centered. ubf is now your family. Don’t believe me? Then try this. Share a testimony at ubf entitled “God’s will is to be family-centered. One word: I love my family.” And then skip a ubf meeting for a family event. You can expect to find many angry and sad faces when you return. To say you are “family-centered” at ubf means you are unspiritual, sinful and in danger of losing God’s approval according to ubf teaching. They further disrespect family by the requirement that every ubf shepherd must go through their arranged marriage process called “marriage by faith”.

2) Identity breaking.

The second reason ubf is a cult is because they are identity snatchers. They encourage you to adopt the viewpoint that your pre-ubf life is bad, sinful, unspiritual and the like. Your new ubf life is now good, holy and pleasing to God if you adopt the “Shepherd X” identity. To make a decision to be a ubf shepherd means everything to ubf people. Your pre-ubf identity is chipped away and cut out, meeting by meeting, until you lose touch with your authentic self. This is done in the name of self-denial and taking up your cross, strongly bound to more proof-texted ideas from bible verses. Dr. Hassan describes this as the cult identity, and it has just enough of “you” to make it seem real. ubf breaks you down through sleep deprivation at numerous conferences, continual indoctrination at daily meetings and repeated reminders of your shortcomings. Your identity becomes assimilated into the ubf community, as your life becomes intertwined with other members’ lives.

3) Decision control.

The third reason ubf is a cult is that the shepherds at ubf manipulate the members (called sheep) to control and check their life decisions, such as who to marry, when to marry, where to work, where to live, etc. The supreme values of most ubf people are loyalty and obedience to the ubf authorities. The leaders take control of people’s lives. Some leaders are called directors because they are charged with directing the affairs of their own chapter or sub-community within the ubf network. ubf leaders live a scripted life. Going “off script” is rarely tolerated, especially for repeated offenses. ubf leaders have a very difficult time in any situation where they cannot control the outcome.

4) Culture destruction.

The fourth reason ubf is a cult organization is that they destroy the culture of the host countries they send missionaries to. They consider American or German or Mexican culture to be bad or at best only useful for propagating the ubf culture. Being Korean is not bad. There are many good things about Koreans. But ubf missionaries from Korea have made the big mistake of imposing their own culture onto the countries where they go. A survey of people in ubf once asked people to describe their own ministry in one word. The most repeated word was simply “Korean”. ubf missionaries tend to ignore their host country culture and often speak of being “re-charged” by going back to Korea for a visit. After several years at ubf, a member discovers that they speak with Korean-english, eat Korean food and value the Korean Confucian ideas of loyalty, nobility, authority, etc. They also find a great disdain for their own culture.

5) Abuse of all kinds.

The final and most important reason why ubf is a harmful cult is because many incidents of abuse have been covered over since 1961 when ubf began in Korea. It is surprisingly well known among ubf leaders that there are incidents of sexual abuse, physical abuse, financial abuse, spiritual abuse and authority abuse. ubf teaches “covering doctrine”, which means leaders’ sins cannot be discussed or challenged in any way. They teach the notion that it is your duty to hide the abuse or sin of a leader. This flawed theology is again proof-texted from the bible with almost no reality check with the thousands of Christian authors and preachers who would expose such teachings. ubf has created an environment where abuse is swept under the rug and corruption thrives under the pretty masks of the appearance of godliness.

Dr. Ben,
I am disappointed with you. Some of my friends spoke well of you but I believe that they don’t know you enough. You could point out my language but cannot see your team members’ behavior. I don’t understand why you use the name UBF for your church. Isn’t it deceiving innocent people? You should change the name if you think that UBF is cult.

what matters is: at any moment &/or in any respects that something is wrong/unhealthy it damages people, so it must be corrected immediately as of first importance…(like it should have been decades ago) or decades from now, many more can have been damaged/unrecovered…impotent discussion without change would continue which is exactly what no-intention-to-change transgressors count on to continue enjoying/reaping benefits of business as usual..

(applies not only to this, but generally to religio/educatio/politico/etcetero maladaptive operations)

https://psych.princeton.edu/psychology/research/pronin/pubs/2007%20Bias%20Perception.pdf

If not, please try to read and understand the abstract from the article. It’s not too difficult to understand.

####

Human judgment and decision making is distorted by an array of cognitive, perceptual and motivational biases. Recent evidence suggests that people tend to recognize (and even overestimate) the operation of bias in human judgment – except when that bias is their own. Aside from the general motive to self-enhance, two primary sources of this ‘bias blind spot’ have been identified. One involves people’s heavy weighting of introspective evidence when assessing their own bias, despite the tendency for bias to occur nonconsciously. The other involves people’s conviction that their perceptions directly reflect reality, and that those who see things differently are therefore biased. People’s tendency to deny their own bias, even while recognizing bias in others, reveals a profound shortcoming in self-awareness, with important consequences for interpersonal and intergroup conflict.

I hope you realize how ironic this discussion is given that Joe’s article here is asking some pointed questions. If ubf was not a cult, then we should be able to get answers to Joe’s questions.

Your lack of concern for ubf as an organization is appalling, and one of the reasons I resigned in protest. Everyone at ubf just cared for themselves and their own chapter except for Ben and Westloop. and Joe and Sharon–they cared for me, they cared for the organization. But the organization leaders don’t want to change. Don’t like the cult label, then do something about it instead of criticizing us (the very people trying to do something abou the cult label).

Do you think I enjoy the cult label? How demeaning is it to have to admit that I was a cult leader and stayed in a cult for 24 years? But I am happier and at peace now that I’ve come to terms with this.

We already discussed this topic ad nauseam in Ben’s article:

Are ubf Leaders Cult Leaders?

There are many cult-watch groups that have files on ubf for decades:

Information about ubf as a cult or a cult-like group

This one is the most clear to me:

“Shepherding/Discipleship teaching emphasizes the necessity of each “sheep,” or Christian disciple, submitting to a “shepherd,” or church elder charged by God with responsibility for the spiritual development of the sheep. The shepherd is in turn submitted to another spiritual elder, and so on up the chain of submissions to the “apostles” at the apex of the characteristic pyramidal structure that links both individuals and groups within the movement.

While Christian Growth Ministries, Crossroads, and Maranatha are among the most prominent of the shepherding organizations, there are many others. Most of these are self-contained; that is, they retain the internal sheep-shepherd structure, but may or may not include the pyramidal hierarchy that culminates in a nationwide or international organization. Among these groups are “Gathering of Believers,” led by Larry Tomczak; Carl Stevens’ “The Bible Speaks,” Hobart Freeman’s “Faith Assembly;” “Last Days Ministries,” founded by the late Keith Green; “University Bible Fellowship;” and “Champaign-Urbana Ministries.”

CIS of NorthEast Ohio – shepherding problems

ubf has shown up in many newspapers and TV reports as well:

ubf in the newspapers

This is what I see happening.

Brian says, “UBF is a cult.”

mrkimmathclass thinks that what Brain says is too extreme. Brian must be too angry, too emotional, too biased. mrkimmathclass is willing to admit that UBF has some problems (without saying precisely what they are) but he thinks that Brian’s claim is so outrageous that it must be dismissed. After all, mrkimmathclass has been in NYUBF for a long time, he knows UBF from the inside, he knows that there are good people in UBF, so anyone who calls UBF a cult is not seeing things objectively and must be badly biased. mrkimmathclass is on the verge of leaving the conversation because Brian is so unreasonable and talking to him is like casting pearls to swine. But before mrkimmathclass leaves, he wants to know what Ben Toh thinks, because Ben Toh is still in UBF and has some credibility.

My question is:

Why does mrkimmatchclass think/know that he is more objective than Brian?

Seriously, I have lost nearly 15 people that I respected in the Lord. When I hear many Korean missionaries talking about their situation, none of them have ever said, awww, that is too bad. It didn’t need to happen that way. All of them have either ignored or “whitewashed” the situation. I even heard the wife of the director at New York tell me, when I was feeling bad that a shepherd in our ministry was not really treated well, tell me, “Some people just aren’t called (or don’t have the heart) for campus ministry.” This is such an understatement as to appear a complete lie or delusion, or at the very least, a deep disconnect.

And my friend, these were people I shared the truth of the Bible. They knew how to study it, and they could see that something was not right. And they’re gone. Many of them, through my personal relationship with them, I know to be more trustworthy than most “missionaries” i’ve met in this organization.

You seem to know math. In Math (or any research) if you ignore the data to suit your theory, you will be wrong. Any theory must come from the whole of data as much as possible.

I hope you will forgive me if I’m wrong, but not only me but a number of senior leaders in UBF are very concerned about the fact that so many things are looked over.

I urge you to try to listen carefully. Moreover, I fear that many are trying to keep you and anyone else from hearing.

At what point is a ministry immune to criticism? What is the formula?

We have a term, “Constructive Criticism.” It is expected that some helpful comments will make a person better.

The Bible says, Instruct a wise man, and he will thank you. Rebuke a fool, and he will hate you.

The problem is that many here have experienced that members, leaders and directors in UBF have more often than not been offended and extremely angry at criticism. So at what point should we say this is a problem? Or should we just ignore it forever?

Or, as many are trying to do, should we seek to be soooo goood that our own personal behavior will show everyone that ubf does not have problems (even though it does)? The flow chart or calculation for that point escapes me.

You say this doesn’t happen at your chapter (from what I can tell, your chapter has had issues, though)

You say you just teach the Bible and introduce to Jesus.

However, I know, personally, a number of people whom I trust in Jesus. At six specific chapters they have encountered the problems we discuss in this website.

I have heard their stories of how they tried to deal with the problems they encountered.

What they related to me sounds exactly the way you are talking to the ubfriends community.

UBF is sick. It needs help. It has hemorrhaged an entire generation of people about my age because of extremely combative reactions to reasonable criticism.

All of the ones I knew, I heard it was because of their lack of faith. However, when I actually talk to them, in their words, they have very real issues with how they were treated, but were not allowed to discuss it.

I’ve experienced this same treatment in my chapter, seen it at regular conferences, and experienced it as well national staff conferences. I’ve seen tinges of it in Africa, Europe and Asia.

And still you keep redoubling your efforts to make a fool of yourself by insulting everyone whose opinion disagrees with you.

You may not have met Dr. Lee, but the way you are discussing things is extreme and full of anger and judgment. I’m sure you learned this was ok from someone. It’s not really. At all. Then I hear stories that this kind of thing was also happening around him. From people who saw it.

If I tell you the truth, it’s because I love you.

If I stop telling you the truth, it means I’m praying for you but you lost me.

Do you agree with him? Are we cult?
I want to hear from you.

How do you think of Brian’s comment?
He has been talking this way all the time.

Praise God that some of these adults escaped. Yes they are adults and can make their own decision. You cannot control them.

If you don’t like the cult accusation mrkim, then don’t act like a cult. Got talk to your ubf echelon and demand they do something about the cult label from more than 8 cult watching groups for the past 50 years.

And maybe you should properly address the issues related to why leaders also left your ministry.

Why care so much about a new bible student who has no commitment to your ministry when long-time leaders just left your ministry? Why don’t you listen to those people who just left? Then you will know the source of your problems.

This website is nothing more than a mirror. Do you see garbage here? Do you see pigs here? Do you see stupid people here? Then you are looking in the mirror. Wake up.

That’s why I wrote “both sides” in quotes, which is expedient, though not prudent, as you correctly pointed out. Recently, I explained my stance and position to a friend, which involves embracing “both sides” as best I can:

“Over the years I began loving differing and dissenting and opposing views and perspectives, welcoming critical thinking, and I especially wish to learn to live out and practice the position of tertium quid, which to be honest is tough and not easy. I believe that this tenuous position is necessary to keep in step or “in line with the truth of the gospel” (Gal 2:14).

Ben, I’m not sure about people being on sides, at least a perceived “anti” side. I think it might be better to say that there is a concern for others and for each other.

On this site, I fully believe that people are willing to listen to your pain and concerns, even if they seem to be the opposite of what many are talking about here. I think that many here would gladly welcome a wider diversity of opinions. But you have to express yourself in a manner that is not confrontational or adversarial. If you treat others as if you value what they have to say, then they will genuinely listen to your concerns as well and be more than willing to dialogue with you.

2. It is the continuation of #1 and mixed with many conversations before.
I am sorry that I used such languages. I am not a great Bible teacher. But still, I have desire to serve God as much as I can. But when I experience these things, I determined to involve. And there are many things people misunderstand about us. Of course, I heard also about some bad things in ubfs. But I don’t agree with the method you guys are using here.

Brian,
I want to say that we are not loyal to the church building or organization but to Jesus, our Lord. As you are a critical and independent thinker, many of us are too. We are not following leaders blindly. We are not professional Bible scholars. But we try to study Bible, understand God’s will and follow His Spirit. I hope you may understand this too.

I want to ask you a couple of questions as respectfully as I can; my intention is not offend you, rather I want to understand where you are coming from.

1. You don’t like the fact that some bad things are said about UBF on this site. I understand why you get emotional about this, but my question is, for the sake of understanding those who may have been legitimately hurt or turned-off by some in the ministry, why can’t you put aside your passion for defending UBF? The commenters here asked some very legitimate questions about why you liked this letter. Why can’t you just simply state what that was? Furthermore, if UBF is God’s enterprise, then why do feel so strongly that you need to defend it?

2. Why the need to call people stupid, pigs and so forth? What on earth is that accomplishing? As gospel ministers, we are to accept all kinds of persecution and being reviled for the sake of reaching out to others in God’s love. You are actually behaving as the one who is persecuting here. Do you not realize this? It’s ironic that you are decrying this website as evil, but you are directly contributing to that through your tone and accusations.

Why so much anger?

“Otherwise, you guys also need to respect prople in ubf and make this site to be a good one to improve that many people can see and learn.”

“But, if you guys keep doing this way, this website will turn into bad one and used only for anti-ubfers, not for friends of ubf.”

So the only way to be good and to learn is to respect ubf? And if we keep an open, honest, community where people can ask about the gospel and work out Christian theology and share their genuine viewpoints, we will just be a bad website run by unfriendly anti-ubers?

Why is it that the only thing ubf missionaries care so deeply about is whether a person is loyal to ubf or not?

Once I asked a Korean ubf missionary about the Calvin/Armenian debate. He said that debate doesn’t matter. What matters is to go fishing. What asked what do we discuss then? He said just be anything to everybody. Whatever someone believes, you believe the same thing. Just keep doing one-to-one bible study.

What word would you use to describe such a thing? I use the word cult.

I especially appreciated the thoughtful and articulate comments by peter and gc (welcome to peter, and welcome back to gc).

At some point in the future, I may post a detailed response to anonymous and to Augustine Sohn. But I won’t hurry. It took almost two months for me to get responses from them, so I hope I can be forgiven for taking my time. It’s better for my emotional health not to be deeply involved in these discussions right now. It’s part of the necessary process of letting go.

Thanks also for being charitable in your responses even when you disagree and are making a rebuttal and an opposing counter-point.

Maybe UBFriends is inclining to being a gentler and kinder website… :)))

I pray that God willing such discussions may be the norm and may happen in more and more UBF chapters openly and publicly, rather than just online here, or in “secret private conversations” that are not privy to others in the church.

After all the Bible–both OT and NT–discusses and reports in detail about shameful stuff publicly for the entire church to read, and uses language that would even cause UBFriends to blush!

Happy Sunday everyone!

The hypocrisy runs deep. Like Driscoll, I think some ubf leaders may actually want to get caught in some twisted pain-of-conscience manner.

The NY situation ought to be cleared up by a call to the local police. The pain and consequences of not doing this are more harmful than the superficial appeasement of covering up the sin.

What I haven’t been able to comprehend with the recent burst of action here is exactly what you have hit on. All pro UBFers should realize that the severity of pain felt by people still in and certainly out of UBF was most likely not the abuses alone. However, waking up one day to realize that the people you made a priority for and grew to love and care, the only people you kept close to you…threw you out in more than a manner of silence. It’s worse than being put through training of any kind. How many people have shared stories of cutting off friendships or even family relationships for the misplaced importance of the UBF anti-“community”?

I mean, what sort of comments are expected here anyway? I know people come and go from here – I am an example…but does every comment require a 2-3 sentence opening of how the person once loved the chapter they were at and the shepherd that taught them? Not only would that be sickening after 5 minutes, but it would undermine the point of website communities such as this one.

While in UBF everyone in a public meeting must sit down and shut up lest they be looked upon as some crazy mental patient. Only in private meetings can speaking up be moderately effective at best, and even then you are only in a position to object to the situation. There is no change or problem solving to later take place to resolve an issue – that is of course unless I am forgetting the formally arranged meeting of leaders which leads to nothing but dissatisfaction with the people involved.

Blogs such as this one do give a needed outlet for people to process what they experienced and also let out some steam. My first comments were full of uncontrolled emotion etc…and eventually, I needed to step away for over one year before even checking back in. I do apologize to Chris for losing it online some time ago. I mean that honestly, I had to consider Chris when I returned here one week ago and I can sincerely say sorry for the online exchange shortly before I dropped out. At that time I needed to stop seeing, thinking and talking UBF….

But I will say, that indeed we do need to be a little more patient with those still in UBF who want to see the good things. I don’t fully disagree with a couple of comments made by the obvious Korean contributors online. It is not a friendly place, however, if you will engage with people here then you must play by the open rules and transparency. None of us are overpowered by the walls of a UBF building while on this blog. We don’t need to be nice to UBF people on account of fear for consequence. We lose nothing at all and for many our lives have already gone through so much change that it is unlikely anyone will feel any remorse for an honest or even harsh word said in an online exchange.

If anyone has been rude and hurtful here I cannot see it. I can see raw emotion for sure – but that comes from abuse and continued denial and cover ups and silence, manipulation etc…I should not, nor should anyone else here be forced to repeat the good that they experienced at UBF, the time spent in UBF is a testimony to that alone. It led for many to become leaders and pseudo chapter directors in their own right. I will say that Pro UBF people are rude and hurtful online here because there seems to be a belief that you still maintain some superior authority over the readers here when you speak. It is not full of raw emotion, but a self-assured arrogance that you are God’s servant speaking to God’s people and/or unbelieving heathens and that all of the open sharing amongst the ex-ubfers is clearly against God and from the devil.

Yes, for UBFers, UBF is “by definition” “God’s ministry” or “the work of God”, and UBF leaders are “the servants of God.” Consequently, sin is defined as “not doing enough for UBF” or “not being obedient.” All other sins are considered minor (fellowshipbible gave the example of drowning yourself in a sea vs. stopping UBF mission).

Certain things are unthinkable for long-time UBFers because their mind frameset and laguage has been reduced – and in my view that’s a side effect (if not the whole purpose of) the way how you live in UBF, listenting to UBF sogams, 1:1 teachers, lectures, messages, mission reports, prayers etc. day in and day out. Your mind learns a restricted language and frameset for thoughts. I’m not saying this because I see this clearly in the way UBF members express themselves, I’m saying this because I have experienced this in myself after a few years of UBF. The effect already kicks in after a few weeks or months. We liked the testimonies of newcomers so much because they were so fresh and frank and different, but after a few weeks, they started to conform and sound like everybody else in the group (because they want to belong to the “inner ring” as forestfailyou pointed out).

Anyway, I think it’s possible to break out of this narrow box of thinking and start seeing clearly again and calling a spade a spade again. It’s a process. Some say it takes nearly as long to get out of as it takes to get in, and I would agree. I definitely needed several years, much reading and talking with people outside (former members and members of “ordinary” churches) to be able to see through all of it, think clearly again, and be myself again, not how cult experts would call it my “cult self.”

All it needs I think is a love for the truth that goes beyond whatever group or ideology we’re currently in, and some remaining conscience. UBF has severly burned my conscience I must say, but there were still some sparkles of conscience alive. At the sunday assembly when my wife and I publicly announced that we would leave UBF, we could not sum up all our reasons very well, and it would have taken too long. All we said was that our conscience did not allow it any more. This was during the time of the 3rd reform movement, when around us we only saw lies, cover up, propaganda, play-acting, defamation of reformers – no Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of truth. If you love the truth, you will be willing to question and test everything, including your fundamental assumptions and loyalties.

If this conversation causes hurt or pain, maybe it’s time to face that. Many of us here have had to do so in enabling and participating in UBF ministry for years. Just because you think this website is garbage doesn’t mean to treat others as such.

Consider that the majority of those who speak up hear have at least a decade of service in UBF under their belts. The collective experience of the regular posters here spans decades and countries. We are not unfamiliar with the subject at hand. We are not speaking about gossip or hearsay. We have seen firsthand the issues presented here.

Now you may have seen or experienced some kinds of reform at a chapter or individual level. But what is wrong in acknowledging the hurt of others beyond your own daily living sphere?

Time doesn’t heal all wounds. But we know that by Jesus’ wounds there is healing. Therefore we have no reason to hide or close our eyes or turn our ears from what people have to say.

I’m speaking very generally here, but my experience has been that many missionaries in leadership positions weren’t interested in discussing culture apart from Korean culture in terms of contextualizing the gospel. Whatever misgivings Americans might have with perceived Korean culture were brushed off as spiritual problems of American culture or individuals or shot down as potentially racist. So it wasn’t just cultural insensitivity, but denial of the incarnation of the Word and the example of his apostles.

What I found painful was the dishonesty: to the “mission” of “serving” and raising disciples and leaders from native students. At critical times, it was the best interest of missionaries that was served first and foremost. It’s perfectly fine to demand sacrifice of natives–and nothing is sacred. But asking a missionary to consider changing something to fit the culture, to remove the awkwardness caused by doing things the way “it was done in [their] chapter in Korea,” and so on, is off-limits.

The perception is that entitlement, cultural superiority (masked as the better, most holy way of doing things), and deception accompany the missionary to the mission field. Now, I saw a few Korean missionaries that were not like this at all. But from those in leadership positions, for the most part, this is what was seen. It was so sickening to hear how a missionary was always required at a meeting to “control the spiritual environment” no matter the seniority or experience of the American shepherd also assigned (if one was assigned at all). Add to this how many missionaries didn’t speak of sheep or shepherds as brothers or sisters, but as their spiritual children who need to be treated like actual children, rather than adults. I was even told that the next director was chosen in large part because only a senior Korean missionary could be received and listened to by the other missionaries in the chapter so an American director was out of the question. How then can there be communication, understanding and love?

Yes, it’s ironic that we do not see sin in us but make every effort to find sin in students as if their sins are huge that we should go out and help.
Only sins we can think of as long time ubfers (korean missionaries) would be like being lazy, not going on campus for fishing, yelling at my kids, not loving husband or wife? if goes a little further, helping a bible student with a business mind?

We think that we have given up the power the world defines long long time ago so we have nothing to repent. But I see that it is not we have given up the power the world defines. We just replaced it with another power our church defines. It is like changing to another token. Before understanding and recognizing this, it would be very hard to see sin in us and call that as sin.

I wish I have better English to make my point clear but am sure that you guys are good at understanding Konglish.

God help us.

God save us.

In Korean culture, Buddhism and confucianism remain strong. According to this, if I do something (many thousands of things!) for you, you ought to have respect and listen to me. This way, children are indebted to their parents, communities are indebted toward each other. It is understood and responded to.

Americans, on the other hand, want to know what they will owe before you give it. If you give it, you give it freely. This is painful and hurtful to every missionary I’ve met in UBF. A simple course in American culture or intercultural communication would have solved so many of the issues. (which leads many to the question, why didn’t this get figured out long ago?)

Korean missionaries give freely, with an inescapable desire to see something good come in return. Not to themselves (hopefully), but to God. So very many Americans turn away from this, because the expectation is pretty obvious.

Then the pain sets in. When the pain gets too great, a missionary ends up doing something hurtful to someone. Other Korean missionaries recognize the problem and give grace and acceptance. To Americans, though, this gives a public view of secrecy, covering up. To other Korean missionaries, this develops a sense of entitlement to inappropriate behavior, and even more, to ignore people who complain about this behavior, or labelling them as painful people.

The good people get caught between the bad people and the people who wouldn’t touch all this with a ten foot pole.

If you think about it, we can forgive everyone.

But if I truly repent, I must stand against “business as usual.”

You said, do you know that when Jesus died on the cross, he forgave all sinners?

But does that justify Pilate? Does it justify the Romans who killed him?

His death on the cross does not justify sin. It justifies all who renounce sinful ways and cling to Christ.

You say you are not Dr. Lee, but we treat you like him. This can’t be factually true, but you can feel it.

I did not abuse people, but people who were abused are persecuting me at my school. Not because of the gospel, but because some missionary or shepherd treated him/her as Dr. Lee has done.

Shall I thank thee? I thank God.

Shall I claim I suffer for the gospel? I suffer for Christ, but not because of the gospel yet.

Shall I look past such actions (and there are so many)? My friend, they are nailed on the cross.

So please don’t take them down again.

Exactly. But this idea was not your own. UBF incessantly instilled this way of thinking deep into everyone of us. Your shepherd is the “servant of God”, the “visible representative of God”, who gives you “direction” or “orientation” in minor and major life decisions. You don’t need the Holy Spirit, you don’t need a conscience, and you don’t need to even think much if you have such a personal shepherd. You just need to obey. On the one side, it makes life easy. On the other hand, you need to totally give up your own personality and responsibility. UBF makes people think this is Biblical “self-denial”, so you even think you’re spiritual, but you’re just confused. After a while, I was totally unable to discern the motivation out of which I was doing things. I was totally unable to discern, was it my own idea, was it an idea that has been implanted into me by indoctrination, was it something the Holy Spirit or my conscience told me, was it something I did out of false fear of men or God, or just to avoid all the fuss that would be stirred up if I do not conform. I became totally immature and stopped reflecting what happened around me and with me. That’s also a fruit of UBF.

No, that is not a flaw. What we claim is that UBF has at its root and core a certain set of mind control practices, and a set of unbiblical beliefs (essentially Shpherding/Discipling with a Confucianist flavor), invented and refined primarily by Samuel Lee. This has been coined UBFism, and it inevitably leads to spiritual abuse. The UBF system makes sure through weekly 1:1, sogam sharing, Sunday messages, conferences etc. that every member is deeply indoctrinated with UBFism. Therefore we see the same kind of spiritual abuse in every UBF chapter, though of course to various degrees. But no chapter is free from it. We are not talking about the individual sin of UBF leaders in individual chapters. We are talking about the whole system of UBF which is flawed. What needs to happen is that UBF repents for promoting cult-like practices and unbiblical teachings over 50 decades. The individual sins that happened, like the misappropriation of money by Samuel Lee, falsification of photos and history, and even enforced abortions, are only expressions of the flawedness of the system. They are only the symptoms of a deeper spiritual problem, namely spiritual pride and authoritarianism that has been driving UBF from the very beginnings. UBF has to repent for promoting and living UBFism, not the gospel.

The symptoms make it very easy to see that there is a flaw in the system. This should motivate you to look for the roots of these problems. And no, the criticism will never end, until clearly admits that they have been following an unbiblical paradigm.

Many who have followed this unbiblical paradigm have recognized this. They were able to repent, like Bob Mumford, one of the leaders of the movement in the 1980s. Why oh why is it so difficult for UBF? Yes, indeed, UBF is a very unique ministry in it’s stubborn unrepentance.

How do you know? There has not been any official, public apology and admission of guilt of UBF since over 50 years. And that’s exactly the problem. It’s sounds strange how you say “it will never be enough” in this situation.

A big part of the pain was equating approval of my shepherd with approval of God. I never decided that it was true, somehow it just formed the way I understood things. It caused me a lot of pain consequently.

” that proved to me, that you no longer care if ubf repents or not. That is what Brian you have said a while ago. am i right?”

You are correct. As I said before I don’t give two sh–s about whether ubf repents or not because my life is far removed from their organization.

Chris seems to still care that they repent, and I say kudos to him.

But no I don’t care. I do care about the “sheep” of ubf who contact me and want to understand what they are experiencing. I write for them.

I think every ubf Korean and every ubf “native shepherd” and “native shepherdess” ought to read Jeremiah 23:1-3.

“Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!” declares the Lord. Therefore this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: “Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done,” declares the Lord. “I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number.”

Enough for what?

Can ubf apologize enough to make me shut down ubfriends?
Can ubf apologize enough to make me stop writing books?
Can ubf apologize enough to make me shut up and go away?
Can ubf apologize enough to make me take down my priestlynation site?
Can ubf apologize enough to praise ubf and submit to their authority?

No.

But we have already shared what an actual, genuine apology from ubf leaders would be accepted here. Read our open letters (there are many) and you will see what we want.

Primarily the kind of apology we want is rather simple.

We just want to see someone in the ubf echelon face the facts about their organization and theology, like Abraham:

“Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead.” Romans 4:19 NIV

If ubf wants to survive this generation, they need to face the facts that 8 cult watching groups have files on them. They need to face the fact that KOPAHN shepherding theology has and is abusive.

Westloop Church has done this, and they are amazing Christians!

I personally thought it was a great post. When Chris stated that his goal is to help ubf repent, and i tell him of the things we repented,reformed and etc. i did not see praise God statement or any of that. Bashing continued on. that proved to me, that you no longer care if ubf repents or not. That is what Brian you have said a while ago. am i right?

That being said I benefited greatly when I studied the Bible, I studied the Bible in UBF the credit goes to the Bible study not to Samuel Lee. Praise to God for blessing us with his word but may no glory go to Samuel Lee for misleading us with claims of his words having greater authority than the words “thous shalt not kill.”

I believe part of the pain that shepherds feel is that all their hard worked efforts were wasted. However there is another part of pain that I may not see, and that’s their own personal reflection between God on what happened. They might’ve lost their 100th sheep, whom they thought was the breakthrough in their ministry. Maybe they feel like their failure represents the failure of God’s plan for their life. Everyone has a great feel of failure, it’s maybe one of our biggest fears. However I will never know what shepherds really feel because my relationship with my shepherd was largely superficial. It was largely defined by the activities we did together. I suppose this is where the gospel comes in, and God lets us ask ourselves: is this all my life is? There has to be something more. This is how I try and imagine what UBF leaders feel. And of course, there’s so much they don’t know about their own sheep, just so much.

You are all free to share your pain here on ubfriends. If you do that, share your pain, we are ready to listen. If you just say “ubf is glorious!” then yes it is difficult for us to listen to you.

By all means, share your pain with whatever raw emotion you have. I think in fact you are doing that now, and for that I am most thankful.

Your comments show two themes that were so distressing to me at ubf.

1) You think in binary terms, either “all lies” or “all truth”. I am a critical thinker, and always have been. But the dichotomous thought fabric ubf teaches blurred my vision and stunted my growth for much of my adult years. Now I’ve abandoned binary thinking and embraced more of a triune thinking. Is there not a third way?

2) You repeatedly dictate my narrative for me. Perhaps I am doing that to you as well, for that is how ubf trained me to be. In any case, you cannot impose your idea of what I’m doing onto me. Maybe you would dare to listen to some of the things I’ve said?

“when Jesus died on the cross, he forgave all the sinners”

This is worth exploring more. Yes the gospel is about forgiveness of sins. Does not that forgiveness compel us to godly sorrow and repentance? How is the gospel related to repentance? Shouldn’t we repent?

I am not joking around mrkim. I would like to know what the gospel is?

That question is also what sparked my leaving ubf. But no, leaving ubf is not the gospel. My leaving ubf caused me so much pain and heartache, and stirred up much controversy. It was painful because I left something I loved, a group of people who loved me and whom I loved dearly. I hurt many people by my leaving.

But the separation had to happen so that I could find myself and breathe again. If there had been any way to stay at ubf and keep my conscience clean I would have.

But the burden of my sin of breaking into James Kim’s house in 1990 and stealing his belongings was too much of a burden for my conscience. Everyone I spoke to at ubf about this, except for two people, dismissed me or laughed at me or condemned me for asking that very question: What is the gospel? If the gospel is Jesus should not I confess my sin of breaking into a family’s house in the winter? I was told to shut up and go away because I was possibly demon possessed.

So in an ironic way yes it is indeed funny that I am now talking about the gospel and loving the Christian church and even in this silly conversation. But God does new things. God’s Spirit compels me to love you enough to keep talking and at times to be silent.

“What is perhaps the most fundamental difference, what could be at least in my opinion, is the understanding of the gospel between those in UBF and those who couldn’t stay anymore.”

I would love to discuss this question here: What is the gospel?

mrkim, what is the gospel?

Just a quick story about criticism and a proper Christian reaction. One reason we don’t criticize our churches is often because our churches are Christian and handle criticism well.

For instance, our prior pastor preached at two Sunday service times. Often he received criticism in between services. What did he do? Well, sometimes he changed his sermon in between based on the new perspective he gained. Sometimes he did not change anything because while he understood the criticism, it didn’t change his sermon. Always he checked what was said with other elders/pastors. (Hint, yes a Christian church normally has a pastor team, not just one spiritual director)

My point is that Christian pastors accept feedback, process it with independent thinking and prayer, check themselves with Scripture and other believers, and strive to discern what the Holy Spirit would have them say and do.

These “nominal, Satanic” Christian pastors (as ubf Koreans call them) are highly compassionate, well-trained and very well versed in multiple theological constructs. They are keenly aware of how they differ from other Christians and work for unity (most of the time) and to offer their unique gifts to the body of Christ.