Like you, I also do not think that the double edged sword coming out of Jesus’ mouth in Revelation is literal but symbolic, which is what idealist think about prophecy in general and eschatology in particular to be symbolic and/or allegorical. But I do think that Jesus’ return in the cloud is literal. For me to believe that there is no such thing as a millenial kingdom or the kingdom of Jesus is already fully established on earth would require much greater faith on my part, considering that the world plunges from bad to worse each second of the day. We can definitely attribute the pathetic condition of our world to bad people doing bad stuff and wish that once people start doing good stuff, the lion and the lamb will start playing together. But it is hard to think that things should be such bad under the rule of Jesus. Frankly, while trying not to ignore being a good follower of Jesus Christ, I would prefer a world where there is no injustice, no suffering and separation, no disease and death, if not now yet in the futue. Leaving hinduism would have been a loss had there been no such hope, and endless cycle of birth and death would be preferable depending on my karma.

I still am open to better doctrines and better hope. As I have stated earlier, I left ubf primarily because of its poor theology. And I believe that situations of abuse and authoritarianism are result of poor understanding about God and a poor hope. I have come to believe that people do not change (repent) becuase of repeated hammering of their past or present wrongdoings, but by seeing and experiencing God and his love and plans for them in new light. And this is something to do with practice of good theology and doctrines.

Thank you for your last response. Because of the opposite time zone of the globe we live in, it is hard to keep up with the to and fro process of reading and commenting on ubfriends.

My main focus regarding prophetic passages would not be how these passages are being fulfilled today or will be fulfilled in the future, or how they have been fulfilled in the past?

Rather, with prophetic passages, including Revelation, and the prophetic passages in the OT (such as in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekial, Daniel), my primary question is “what did it mean to their contemporary audience when they first heard it?”

With the prophecy about Egypt, Isaiah was telling the people of Judah to not trust and rely on Egypt because Egypt will be judged by God and ruined (Isa 19:1-15). Also, why would you trust Egypt when one day Egypt will worship Yahweh (Isa 19:16-25)?

So our contemporary application today is “Don’t trust the world but trust God alone, who rules history.”

Yes, it is true that my 35 years in UBF has caused me to “jump to application” (and perhaps to homiletics) BEFORE adequate and appropriate hermeneutics and exegesis.

My favorite quote about studying the Bible (out of context) is “a text without a context is a pretext for a proof-text.” And yet, I clearly violated this quote in this post!

That’s why I love it when people critique my sermons and preaching. The most scary critique of my sermons comes from my wife, before whom I tremble every Sunday after preaching, waiting to see if she gives me a “thumbs up” or a “thumbs down.”

Hopefully, MJ, if she’s at the service, would give and share her honest comments after my preaching. Yes, Gajanan, it would be on all of Isaiah 19-20 (entitled True Believers), beginning with the judgment, ruin and fall of Egypt (Isa 19:1-15), and not just on the “good part” of Egypt’s restoration, redemption, healing and salvation (Isa 19:16-25).

Here are some overall themes of Isaiah, which is virtually repeated in almost every sermon (chapter) on Isaiah: http://westloop-church.blogspot.com/2015/09/judgment-and-hope-trust-and-rebellion.html

Thanks again for taking the time to reading my post and giving me your feedback. It is truly appreciated.

“Otherwise, your manuscript looks like what most ubf Bible teachers and messengers do — avoiding what they dont understand and what seems to be controversial and prematurely jumping to make some application.”

Thank you for pointing this out, Gajanan. Thank you for mentioning the genre of this particular Isaiah passage: it is prophesy.

Superficial exegesis reads the whole Bible the same way, as if it’s all didactic letters, but it’s not. There are narrative parts of the Bible; there is poetry, exposition, and of course, there are the epistles. The epistles are the easiest to read and apply because they’re straightforward. But when one reads the OT, one understands that it is not an explicit instruction manual for everyday life. Looks at the story of Judah and Tamar or Naomi and Ruth. (Naomi told Ruth to go to the harvest floor after everyone was drinking and there were only men). This is not protocol action for engagement in any culture.

You also bring up the context and talk about Egypt currently,

“it makes sense as to how God is in control of not only the distant past but of the present and this makes us to trust him for our future and the future of the world — a much needed mark to be true believer. Not saying that the prophecy is already fulfilled, but perhaps it is being fulfilled or it is a foreshadowing about the future of Egypt that will find ultimate fulfillment at the return of Jesus.”

Prophecies are interesting because they can be literal, but they are also being fulfilled right now. The sense of time in Hebrew is very different. And often times when one reads the OT, one gets a sense that time is different. It’s not always a chronological retelling of history. Thank you for making the context clearer. Dr. B has more reading to do:) And us at WL are going to benefit from it on Sunday.

Just have to point this out… that definition is the exact opposite of Living Water. Modification of your daily life, however spiritualized it may be, cannot quench your thirst for grace and mercy. That is salvation by works and falls apart every few years.

God desires mercy, not sacrifice. The Law is no longer your supervisor. The only way to have new life in Christ is to drink of the grace He offers.

What is the gospel? UBFism
What is the Living Water? UBFism
What is the church? UBFism
What is a disciple? UBFism

Ugh.

I turn to Spurgeon for my starting point now:

“The Grace of God is like water in no less than eight senses.”

Living water is grace. So simple. And yet so powerful. Surrender to grace, 100%.

“It will soon be your turn to die. You, too, must gather up your feet in the bed, and meet your father’s God; God grant that you may then be found right with Him. Little do I know for whom these sentences may have a special bearing, but they may have a bearing, dear Friend, upon you. I see some of you dressed in black; you have had to go to the grave mourning because of others. That black will be worn by others soon for you, and the place that now knows you shall know you no more forever. Oh, by the frailty of life, by the near approach of the Master, or by the certainty of death, I pray you see to it that you breathe the prayer, “Lord give me of Your Grace.” The Lord help you to pray it. Amen.”

The Water of Life – Charles H. Spurgeon

In other words, the living water is the “new life” in Christ. In other, other words, the living water is dropping all forms of worldly enjoyment and living ascetically for the UBF mission, only allowing yourself to find enjoyment in UBF activities. At least, that’s what it is in application. In explanation, it is almost too complicated to pin down.

This is NOT cute!

Thanks again for taking the time to communicate, dialogue and have this conversation with me and with our ubfriends community!

First of all, it is not clear why you wanted to focus on marks of true believers. In fact reading your manuscript took me back in time to the very last ubf conference I attended. The conference attempted to study the book of Daniel. Any serious reader of Daniel would have known that book of Daniel is prophetic, speaking about world history through rise and fall of empires until the second coming of Jesus and the millenial kingdom. But… messages of that conference completely overlooked the message Daniel wanted to convey and focused on character building from the life examples of Daniel and his friends, such as a resolute faith, spiritual purity, a committed life of prayer(especially the early morning gathering), not bowing down to life threatening pressure and above all to be bible teachers for kings (campus students who are the future leaders). I am quite sure that only these same emphases of character building and commitment to a cause continues in ubf in the name of studying Daniel. I felt the same after reading your meditation on Isaiah 19-20.

The introductory verse itself makes it clear that these two chapters are prophecy, especially when the Lord comes to Egypt riding on swift cloud. You have alluded to this event as “in that day,” but what realy this day is about? It is neither the plans nor desires of the people of Egypt to be true believers by learning to fear God, nor by their allegiance, nor by speaking Hebrew, nor by making altar for the Jewish God. It is the Lord’s coming with an uplifted hand agaist the Egyptians (Isa 19:1;16-17) that they will perhaps know him and become believers as a nation.

Your complete ignoring of verse 2 through 15 in ch 19 looks more like an attempt to avoid contorversy and maintain political correctness. But perhaps if you reflect these verses in the light of the large scale protest in Egypt against the Morsi government at Tahrir Square (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012%E2%80%9313_Egyptian_protests ) it makes sense as to how God is in control of not only the distant past but of the present and this makes us to trust him for our future and the future of the world — a much needed mark to be true believer. Not saying that the prophecy is already fulfilled, but perhaps it is being fulfilled or it is a foreshadowing about the future of Egypt that will find ultimate fulfillment at the return of Jesus. Otherwise, your manuscript looks like what most ubf Bible teachers and messengers do — avoiding what they dont understand and what sees to be controversial and prematurely jump to make some application.

Perhaps we can also think about the present situation of the Nile river here (http://shoebat.com/2015/03/23/the-nile-and-the-euphrates-are-drying-up-both-rivers-are-in-the-news-and-both-rivers-are-in-the-bible-an-inevitable-famine-is-plaguing-the-muslim-world/ ) in the light of this prophecy.

Regarding, Egyptian learning Hebrew, it can also be said that they will agree on many accounts. In fact, in spite of some ups and downs, Egypt is the only nation around Israel’s border with which Israel has a lasting peace treaty. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt%E2%80%93Israel_relations )

True believers will rise in Egypt “in that day” but some of the greatest revival in that part of the world is alredy happening in Egypt in our days. (http://www.christianpost.com/news/christian-revival-in-egypt-includes-revolution-story-69403/ ). I think there is no better example of allegiance then 21 Egyptian christians choosing to be beheaded at the hand of ISIS for their faith in Jesus rather than surrendering to Allah and the Sharia law at gun point. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_kidnapping_and_beheading_of_Copts_in_Libya)
I feel that without making the context clear it will be hard to make any lasting impact in the hearts of your adudience. Sorry, if my comment is longer than your article.

To put this in contemporary context, it is like Americans submitting to Koreans and speaking “Konglish,” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/09/23/marks-of-true-believers/#sthash.hiFm1MQT.dpuf

If you want to learn how to speak Konglish, this video is highly recommended. Speaking good Konglish is an excellent way to get promoted to become a UBF fellowship leader or conference messenger.