“I basically want to apologize for being such a dick; sometimes [I have] a false sense of bravado or something akin to that, which causes one to say things without thinking much about the recipient’s feelings. Anyway, that is par for the course in terms of public electronic forums, but I don’t want to continue to espouse such an attitude. But for the record, I don’t think that you are heretic (though I disagree with your stance on homosexuality) or out of your mind. I understand that you are going through a healing process and these blogs help you to sort out your thoughts and feelings. Also, for the record, I didn’t mean to insinuate that those who were hurt were largely at fault. Leaders should be held accountable as peoples lives are in their hands, to some degree. I’m sorry if I sounded like I was blaming the victims. I think that I was trying to say that people in general should not be so fearful as to give license for such damaging relationships to persist. But this is a hard thing to do given the dynamic of shepherd-sheep relationship.”

Or should I say “dookie jones” like your email address says?

Vitaly and I will pray that you never have to undergo dead-dog training in UBF.

> No, not everyone. Can we please stop with the black and white thinking? I mean UBF ideology (i.e. “spiritual heritage”) and the people I refer to are most UBF directors.

I’m the one making black and white comments?? Are you serious? You have been painting a black picture of UBF, aside from the things that you think are progressive in the ministry, IN ALMOST EVERY ARTICLE ON THIS SITE. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You’re so hell-bent on this quest to expose UBF that you can’t even judge your own actions or thoughts properly. I don’t deny any of the abuse that has gone on and I know what has happened in outside chapters, including the reform movements. I feel empathy for those people, but to go on some crusading quest to make leaders step down is not my call. You can’t even handle the fact that there are people like me in UBF that don’t fit your monochromatic picture of the typical abused sheep. All that you can say is ‘good for you’. That’s so lame; you’re tired of the white washing of the ministry reports but when someone has a genuinely good story and mentions that there are many more like it, you brain goes into either panic or indifference mode because it’s not something that you want to believe. You continue on though because clearly the Spirit is with you. You change that ministry, you man that keyboard, you post those blog entries and blinding speed. You’re the man, Karcher. Martin Luther 2.0 right here.

Thank you for your dialog! I have found dialogue to be the most helpful part of my spiritual journey, especially dialogs with people who think differently from me. Here are my replies:

“Nope, wrong, categorically wrong.”
> Ok, can we stop with the “all wrong” attitude? I am certainly wrong and right; as are you. I say several times on my blog that I don’t invalidate all of UBF entirely. Can we please be specific?

“This has not been my experience and I can name so many people who have not had this experience either.”

> Now you sound like me :)

“I got to date my wife in UBF (and I am not a second gen). I don’t even have a formal shepherd. I have been able to choose my ‘shepherd’ and have been mentored in a healthy way by several people. I have been able to largely make life decisions on my own; no one has ever ordered me to do such and such in terms of major life decisions; it has been more like a consulting process with prayer and guidance instead. Doesn’t sound like your typical characterization of a UBF member does it? Well I can name many others who fit into my type of category.”

> Good for you. Do you have any compassion on those who didn’t have such an experience? I know you are in Chicago, where Mr. Armstrong’s influence has helped cause a huge turnaround. Again I ask, do you know what has happened in 2011 in chapters outside of Chicago? Do you know what happened in India for example? Do you care?

“I have found that those who are controlled by others have actually played a large part in consenting to that. Think about, people are generally fearful and they would rather have someone make decisions for them rather than take responsibility for their lives.”

> This is profoundly flawed thinking. Your words heap more abuse onto the wounds that need healing. How can you justify such thinking?

“You have a way of not addressing things directly such as how in the world can you say that you are a Spirit-led critic of UBF if your information is so biased. And how can you make the statement that ‘ubf will be judged by Moses since that is what they believe in’. What the hell does this even mean?”

> It means that many in UBF have a flawed understanding of the gospel and rely on obeying the laws of Moses in some form.

“Are you basically saying that UBF (meaning everyone) acts as if they are under law rather than grace?”

> No, not everyone. Can we please stop with the black and white thinking? I mean UBF ideology (i.e. “spiritual heritage”) and the people I refer to are most UBF directors.

“Are you wrong or is the Holy Spirit wrong?”

> Well if the choice is between me and the Holy Spirit, of course I am wrong. Again, can we please stop with the false dichotomy and black/white thinking? By the way, if UBF life is so good, are you free to tell your chapter director that you are discussing these things with me? Why do you remain anonymous?

Nope, wrong, categorically wrong. This has not been my experience and I can name so many people who have not had this experience either. I got to date my wife in UBF (and I am not a second gen). I don’t even have a formal shepherd. I have been able to choose my ‘shepherd’ and have been mentored in a healthy way by several people. I have been able to largely make life decisions on my own; no one has ever ordered me to do such and such in terms of major life decisions; it has been more like a consulting process with prayer and guidance instead. Doesn’t sound like your typical characterization of a UBF member does it? Well I can name many others who fit into my type of category. I have found that those who are controlled by others have actually played a large part in consenting to that. Think about, people are generally fearful and they would rather have someone make decisions for them rather than take responsibility for their lives. Also, people tend to make idols out of any and everything. That goes with ministry and people. I think that you are a classic case of one who idolized ministry. Since idols are not perfect, they fail us. I think that you got a rude awakening when the version of UBF idolized came up short. That’s a tough break; I think that realizing that people are flawed has helped me to sort through and bear with a lot of b.s. in this ministry and in life in general. Of course, this does not justify abuse, but it at least leaves room for personal healing and possibly reconciliation. I know some people who have left who are simply unwilling to be consoled. Whatever, this is moot. I’m waiting for your counter-response and denial. You have a way of not addressing things directly such as how in the world can you say that you are a Spirit-led critic of UBF if your information is so biased. And how can you make the statement that ‘ubf will be judged by Moses since that is what they believe in’. What the hell does this even mean? Are you basically saying that UBF (meaning everyone) acts as if they are under law rather than grace? Really? I can tell you that this is categorically untrue in my chapter and others as well. How did the Holy Spirit inspire you to make an erroneous statement like that? Are you wrong or is the Holy Spirit wrong? Again, awaiting your denials, refutations and skirting around my questions.

After learning of yet another good family leaving ubf recently, I just have to say, “Good Lord, man, when will it stop? How many more families have to leave?”

I tell you what, if I find out this family was hurt in any way…

“I want to apologize for using such blunt statements.”
> Apology accepted.

” you make accusations which are informed by outdated information..”
> Outdated? I make my comments here based on what has been going on from 2011 to now. Are you aware of what has happened in Toledo? in Taiwan? in Kiev? in various house churches around the US?

” The truth is that everyone’s experience in UBF is specifically unique to them because no two people share the same identity.”
> Each person is indeed unique, I agree. But there are common abuses that have been experienced in UBF by many hundreds of people. Have you been through the “marriage by faith” process? Do you realize your UBF shepherd views his/herself as your “parent”? Are you prepared to check every life decision with your UBF shepherd? Are you willing to commit your entire life to the authority of your UBF chapter director?

> Also, I don’t speak of the good side of UBF much here because UBF does that themselves. They ONLY speak of positive stories about “giving God glory”.

> I hope you realize that almost every “sheep” in UBF starts out with an extremely good experience. It is only after about 5 to 7 years when the challenges and training really sink in. And God forbid you ever want to leave or raise questions about UBF authority.

> You mentioned the word “critique”. I would agree that a Spirit-led “critique” would indeed be fair and balanced. I only use that word rarely here because I am not critiquing UBF– I am criticizing UBF ideology.

You stated: “Tell me of one pastor who would see that as a healthy statement.”

Well, John Piper uses such statements. And I do indeed believe that I am one of many people being used by the Spirit these days to transform UBF ministry.

For example, here is a quote from Piper:

“…verses 4 and 5 go on to show that there is another utterly crucial thing that the apostles needed in order to be the most effective instruments in the hands of the living Jesus. They needed to be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

And while staying with them he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me, for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Source: http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/you-will-be-baptized-with-the-holy-spirit

It might be hard for readers here to comprehend, but this blog is truly a small part of my life. My family’s journey is so much bigger than this blog.

Most people also don’t understand that I am a critic of UBF not because I hate UBF, but because I love UBF. One of the hardest things for me is to see the organization I devoted so much to sit back and ignore the public image problem or to address the problem by self-praise or removing criticisms.

But I am glad to hear people like you are speaking up and sharing your mind. An organization that can learn from criticism is surely on a path to better things.

“Even if the whole premise is flawed, you can still pick out some healthy ideology.”

> Fair enough. There are indeed some good things ubf people have done. I don’t invalidate my entire ubf experience. However, if the whole premise is flawed, as you say, I see no way to “pick out” some healthy ideology. How would you pick out something healthy from a flawed premise?

“For instance, God does use the one-to-one construct, at times, to help people in the process of discipleship. It’s called a mentor relationship, something that can be seen in the Bible, throughout history and in the modern secular world and church (not just UBF).”

> Correct. There is such a thing as a one on one mentorship. There are many differences between mentorship and ubf 1:1. Mentoring is rarely demanded to be a lifelong commitment. Typically, people choose their mentors but in ubf the shepherds always choose their sheep. Also, the claim in this presentation is that ubf 1:1 is God’s way and the best way. No mention of normal healthy mentorship is mentioned. Notice how “1:1” is not really defined clearly or fully?

“Granted, many in UBF have misused this, but there are also healthy examples within UBF of how this has led to the genuine growth of one’s faith.”

> Many have indeed misused this. Why? Because lifelong, obtruse, forced authority over another person’s life is prone to being misused. The ratio of healthy ubf 1:1 to unhealthy is certainly heavily weighted to unhealthy. How many thousands of people who did indeed have genuine faith in ubf end up leaving, shipwrecking that faith or become wounded with emotional and psychological problems? My guess is that ratio is 100 to 1. For every 1 healthy ubf 1:1 relationship right now, there must be 100 other unhealthy relationships that disintigrated or went bad.

“Also, the author says in slide 36 that the central focus of Bible study should be the gospel (although I would more precisely say Christ). But I’m sure that you have a negative response for that as well.”

> This does sound good. How does ubf define the gospel?

“You have to keep in mind too that because some objective good has been done through UBF, the author probably has in mind passing on the good fundamental core values of the ministry, not the authoritarianism, sectarianism and so forth.”

> I agree. No one in their right mind starts out wanting to pass on the authoritarianism, etc. But the longer you are in ubf, the more you succomb to doing so. Lording over others becomes a normal part of your ubf life after about 5 to 7 years.

“But you know, I can’t even be sure of this, because guess what, we weren’t even there to hear the author give the presentation. So you are making grand sweeping generalizations without even knowing the context, tone, or additional ad-libs that unpacked the presentation slides.”

> How long were you in ubf? How many ubf presentations have you heard? I heard many hundreds. They are all the same in the end: praise God because ubf is so good. It also does not matter what the presenter said. The slides say enough. ubf likes to twist things around with verbal communication so that you don’t notice how bad their theology really is. Finally we have some documentation.

“I know that you have over 24 years experience in the ministry, but you simply don’t have the vantage point to know exactly what is going through these people’s minds or what God is currently doing.”

> And ubf does know what God is doing? I used to only be able to hear my shepherd’s voice and the “ubf voice”. Now I can see and hear God far more clearly than ever before in my life. I am being mentored properly now in a healthy church and it is amazing hear what God is saying! God’s word to me regarding ubf has been: Stop.

“This is so unhealthy, I don’t even know how you have time to keep up these blogs and get any actual work done. How is your worship life? Do you have any genuine joy in your Christian life apart from sitting on the throne as judge, jury and executioner of UBF ideology and its flawed leaders?”

> Perhaps it is coming across as unhealthy to you. But this is very healthy and helpful to me. My worship has vastly improved since leaving ubf. There is SO much I want to teach ubf people if they would listen! I am not the judge, but I am a critic of ubf. ubf will be judged by Moses’ words, in which they trust.

“But I understand, 24 years is a long time to be in one particular milieu. You need to unpack your thoughts and heal and perhaps steer others away from it so that they won’t be wounded like you were; I get all of that.”

> Yes, indeed.

“But I just can’t imagine how this is helping you when you have such a limited vantage point and one sole side of the story from others who were wounded.”

> Really? A limited vantage point? You don’t know much about me then…Some have said they learned more about ubf from me and other former members than they ever did from ubf itself.

“And if some leaders did personally apologize to you but not publicly, why can’t you be happy with that?”

> Ah yes, be happy and go away silently. James Kim wrestled with that, as do all former ubf members. I won’t be content with that because of the 3 prior reform movements. UBF has heard all this for 50 years and still little or no repentance at the top. They are starting to listen now but only because I and a couple others are forcing the issue continually. I am not seeking an apology. I am seeking repentance and redemption, which can be only brought about by the Holy Spirit. Right now I am an instrument in the hands of the Spirit to facilitate this movement.

“You feel a deep need to be vindicated over and over again as if this is your true security and satisfaction. But you know what brother, Jesus paid it all. It won’t help to crucify UBF repeatedly because that is not where your true healing lies.”

> Fair enough. Good points.

“That is why Jesus told us to love our enemies; yes expose falsehood and preach the truth, but at the end of the day, rest in God’s vindication of your soul through the once and for all sacrifice of Christ. Let God win in the end.”

> God will wil in the end. That victory does not depend on me or on ubf. I do not consider ubf people as enemies. I speak up out of love for them to know the truth and face the facts about their situation and their ideology.

“Also, do you realize that if you are wrong about any of the assessments that you are making, you will be held accountable before God?”

> I’m not afraid. Yes my words will be accountable. I will gladly stand before God on judgment day with flawed theology, failed understandings, misspoken words. But I will NOT stand before God without speaking out against injustice, loving all people as best I can and sharing the gospel of Jesus.

“Ultimately, people will find true healing through Christ and the indwelling of His Spirit.”

> Indeed and amen.

Here are my initial thoughts:

First, it doesn’t take me much time to blog my criticisms of UBF, as I can do that rather easily.

Second, I am reading 3 books currently and rethinking my entire faith on my other blogs, such as this blog.

Third, I will continue documenting my post-ubf experience. My goal is not to change ubf, I certainly can’t do that. I will tell my story and provide a safe place for others to connect and share from around the world if they choose to do so.

Fourth, my purpose here is to cause ubf people to think. They’ve already written me off and would only accept me if I became a loyal ubf man again.

Fifth, I publicly defended ubf profusely and hurt many people by it. I blog now to undo that defense.

Finally, I am happier and more peaceful than ever before. I am finding my “self” and expressing my words and my thoughts for perhaps the first time in decades. So my thoughts are raw and unfiltered. But that’s who I really am. My six blogs reveal my true nature and until I embrace that fully, I won’t find God’s healing.

You mentioned “pray for your enemies”… I do not consider ubf an enemy, but something I truly loved and people I still consider as friends. I think wounds from a friend are better than hidden love.

Peace and blessings. Feel free to share anything here. This is an open mic.

For instance, God does use the one-to-one construct, at times, to help people in the process of discipleship. It’s called a mentor relationship, something that can be seen in the Bible, throughout history and in the modern secular world and church (not just UBF). Granted, many in UBF have misused this, but there are also healthy examples within UBF of how this has led to the genuine growth of one’s faith. Also, the author says in slide 36 that the central focus of Bible study should be the gospel (although I would more precisely say Christ). But I’m sure that you have a negative response for that as well.

You have to keep in mind too that because some objective good has been done through UBF, the author probably has in mind passing on the good fundamental core values of the ministry, not the authoritarianism, sectarianism and so forth. But you know, I can’t even be sure of this, because guess what, we weren’t even there to hear the author give the presentation. So you are making grand sweeping generalizations without even knowing the context, tone, or additional ad-libs that unpacked the presentation slides.

I know that you have over 24 years experience in the ministry, but you simply don’t have the vantage point to know exactly what is going through these people’s minds or what God is currently doing. This is so unhealthy, I don’t even know how you have time to keep up these blogs and get any actual work done. How is your worship life? Do you have any genuine joy in your Christian life apart from sitting on the throne as judge, jury and executioner of UBF ideology and its flawed leaders? I can’t imagine being able to write such one-sided vitriol as what’s found on this site and still maintain a healthy relationship with God and others that is not steeped in self-righteousness or an overly critical outlook. I could think of a million other positive things that I could do besides maintaining such a lop-sided critique of an organization such as this. But I understand, 24 years is a long time to be in one particular milieu. You need to unpack your thoughts and heal and perhaps steer others away from it so that they won’t be wounded like you were; I get all of that. But I just can’t imagine how this is helping you when you have such a limited vantage point and one sole side of the story from others who were wounded. And if some leaders did personally apologize to you but not publicly, why can’t you be happy with that? You feel a deep need to be vindicated over and over again as if this is your true security and satisfaction. But you know what brother, Jesus paid it all. It won’t help to crucify UBF repeatedly because that is not where your true healing lies. That is why Jesus told us to love our enemies; yes expose falsehood and preach the truth, but at the end of the day, rest in God’s vindication of your soul through the once and for all sacrifice of Christ. Let God win in the end.

Also, do you realize that if you are wrong about any of the assessments that you are making, you will be held accountable before God? I could say a ton of things about my enemies that may seem true, but if they are not, then they are basically lies because the concept of a half-truth is an oxymoron. God will not send me to hell for this, provided that I am in Christ, however he cannot mocked. If you are sowing to the desires of your old way of life, you will not reap anything good from that. Sow to the Spirit instead; pray for your enemies. Pray for the Holy Spirit to convict the hearts of UBF people. If the Spirit so moves, we might actually see widespread public repentance in UBF one day. I can understand how your blogs may be comforting or informative for some, but only to a degree. Ultimately, people will find true healing through Christ and the indwelling of His Spirit.

I think this presentation demonstrates the Confucian threads woven into the UBF fabric.

The concept of “li” or “the proper way” is revealed in the slides about UBF 1:1 being God’s way of salvation.

The concept of “hsiao” or “family honor” is revealed in the opening introduction and the labeling of UBF bible teachers as parents.

The concept of “chung” or “loyalty to authorities” is revealed in the slides about the purpose of knowing 1:1 – to pass on the UBF heritage as an inheritance from the first generation. Those in power in UBF demand such an inheritance, and this presentation shows the acceptance of the demand.