The fourth most commented article with 266 comments on the original UBFriends is Galatians Set Me Free From Legalism. I wrote about how Paul, a “junior” rebuked Peter, a “senior” publicly. Paul then shared and circulated how and why he rebuked Peter in a letter to be read in all the churches (Gal 2:11-14). Today it is like sending out a mass email to everyone in the church to explain how a Christian leader made a big mistake! Basically, Paul pointed out clearly and in detail why Peter, the senior leader, was clearly in the wrong. In that strongly hierarchical Jewish culture, this was huge and unthinkable.
Based on this account, how do we “go back to the Bible”? My question is provocative, but it is practical. Also, I ask this question with a smile.
My short answer is that Christians, and in particular senior leaders in the church, should welcome being questioned, objected to, challenged and to be told and shown that they are wrong.
Are you comfortable to “go back to the Bible” by pointing out how and why your church leader is wrong? Will you be heard? Will your objection and rebuke be welcomed?
One of the key messages of the Bible is that God welcomes people who disagree and tell him that he’s wrong, and he takes their objections seriously. He could declare “Shut up and obey me because I’m in charge and you’re not.” But he welcomes dissent among his people. That idea is so fundamental that it appears in the name God’s chosen people (Israel): He wrestles with God.
Isaiah 1:18 comes to mind. When Jesus welcomes the weary and burdened to come to him (Mt 11:28-30), it seems quite obvious that he was likely invite some nasty fellows to come along and wear him out.
This is a comment from a pastor: “I absolutely agree with these two caveats: it must be done in love and for good reason. It is easy for church members to become overly critical of their pastor so that he just HAS to hear their complaint about the colors the elders chose for the nursery. I am blessed that my church is very loving, but I know other pastors who are bombarded on all sides by an overly complaining congregation. If the pastor is wrong theologically about a foundational point and you can prove it then yes! You must go to him, it is your duty to do so. Or if he is treating people in a sinful way then yes! You must confront it. But even in these, it should be in love. Anyway, Thanks Doc, I always appreciate what you write.”
That was a great article from last year, Ben. Your thoughts hit home with what most of us experienced at ubf. And at the same time you were able to poke our consciences, revealing our own legalism.
As I re-read that Galatians article this morning, this stood out to me: “In Paul’s day, Jewish Christians (the Judaizers) taught the Gentile Christians that in addition to believing in Christ they must keep Jewish traditions–circumcision, dietary laws, special days–in order to become ‘fully Christian.'”
Paul had the courage to call out Peter and the other Judaizers. He even cursed them. The arrogance and elitism displayed by Peter was clearly wrong, and Paul called him out. Peter would later accept this public rebuke.
I see a lot of myself (and the role some of us have played) in Paul’s actions, especially you and Joe.
And so it is time to once again call out the ubf leaders and rebuke them publicly.
The ethics committee at ubf and the senior leaders all know about the history of Samuel G. Lee from Ottawa. And yet they have the AUDACITY to cover up his abuses and INVITE him to speak as a main lecturer at a CHILDREN’S conference?!?
This makes me as mad as Paul.
Same with Peter Chang in Bonn, Brian. Even though kindergarten teachers and members testified about the problems in Bonn (beatings, child neglect etc.) and the case was an investigated by the state attorney, he was still invited as main speaker to the international conference, then made director for children education and then European and CIS director. It made me so furious at that time (about ten years ago).
http://ubfriends.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/webcbf.jpg
“The ethics committee at ubf and the senior leaders all know about the history of Samuel G. Lee from Ottawa. And yet they have the AUDACITY to cover up his abuses..” leaders can be, no must be told if wrong, otherwise God’s right ways are dishonored; audacity to cover-up abuse shows reality that committee has no sincere ethics only self-preservation & senior leaders have no proper leadership only self-serving objectives:
it announces loud & clear that all that matters to the organization is group gains, to the point of flaunting in followers’ faces that Samuel’s status in the group is far more important than an individual child’s safety..
“…they have the AUDACITY to cover up his abuses and INVITE him to speak as a main lecturer…”
Those who are faithfully defensive about UBF will categorically reject this explanation above. To some leaders, they did not cover anything up. In their minds, they dealt with it internally and took care of it prayerfully. In their own hearts they likely believe that he repented and has changed and will not keep doing what he had done in the past. Thus, he is fully qualified to speak at a UBF conference as well as continue his role as a UBF leader, since he is a faithfully loyal and fully committed UBF man.
As to what exactly took place and what remedial measures were instituted, if any, it is basically “NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.” Sorry.
Yes that is most likely how they think, Ben. But consider this: Why do they make a public announcement about the CBF teachers’ conference? This is a private event.
So if ubfers want to deal with this person internally and sweep it under the rug, then you are correct. It is their business. I really don’t care what they do within their messed up organization.
BUT when the publicly announce such a thing, then the public is involved. When they publicly claim to be a Christian disciple making ministry and publicly announce such a thing, it becomes public business.
In other words, if they want to be an abusive cult covering up such things and protecting only the abusers and not showing any love to the victims, then stay behind closed doors. Since they act like a cult, they should close themselves off completely and stop making public announcements.
The public must be warned.
wowser, probably same thing bishops used to say for decades until the weight of priest child sex abuse tilted too far (continued by internal dealings/moving around) becoming a slippery slope of litigation/resources funneled to lawsuits; undoubtedly that can only be the same destiny for ubf or any org that refuses to really deal with serious problems/cares less for the abused than the precious leader abuser..
I may be wrong here, but in my opinion some/many leaders in ubf function based on the past where what they say goes without much question or objection or challenge.
Now that it has become a cyber world of social media, this old mindset persists.
I think some really don’t understand that when you post something publicly it becomes a public matter, subject to the public’s comments, rebuttal, objections and rebuke.
Since some older leaders have little idea how to receive being corrected, some of them really don’t know what to do other than the two things most frequently done: silence or anger or both silence and anger.
They likely also consider that public comments are not worth their honor, their dignity, their prestige and their time to respond to you. After all, who do you think you are?
“They likely also consider that public comments are not worth their honor, their dignity, their prestige and their time to respond to you.”
Indeed, they will not respond to me, except of course to tell me every once in a while that I am demon-possessed and to go away with God’s blessings and move on with my life 🙂
The public however will listen, and already is listening.
Another thought is that UBF’s leadership structure has been and still basically is top down. Before the internet age this top down model is implemented and the objectors were basically shamed, shunned, marginalized or even expelled.
They can still do this, and perhaps still are doing so but in a more controlled fashion. But now those who have been put down has a voice through social media to express their displeasure and disgruntlement.
To this day, I don’t believe that UBF leadership is able to address this in a satisfactory manner, because it would absolutely require equality, fairness, justice and with all voices heard equitably.
This is very hard for a top down leadership style either from a sole authority or from a hand selected oligarchy that has been ruling virtually unchecked for 50 years plus.
It’s just too hard for some of them to relinquish their power and authority, which some believe is their absolute God given right, and allow the Holy Spirit to shake things up against their preferences.
And the natural result is that they have to choose a few people who will fit into that dysfunctional leadership model and indoctrinate them even more.
In fact that is what appears to be happening. Only 20 people are allowed to attend the next Leadership Development Workshop (LDW). They are focusing on seasoned ubf leaders and only those willing to be CME’d. This is all highly predictable.
I may be wrong, but “only 20 people allowed to attend” might also be because of a lack of interest, and not necessarily entirely because of restriction.
If I remember correctly, the initial goal was for 100 young, dynamic and promising leaders from the U.S. and Canada to attend with food, lodging and expenses provided for, or something like that.
Well, in this regard, you have to grant that leadership is rather flexible to adapt to the ever changing goals and situation.
I can’t wait for THE manual of how to raise disciples in the North American context! This will be an exciting new twist on how to change everything and still maintain the status quo… keeping the legacy of UBFism going for decades to come!
“The subject is discipleship. This will be the second annual workshop among three which we plan to devote to this subject. Attendance is limited to about 20 leaders who are engaged in disciple raising throughout North America, along with some senior staff. The purpose of this workshop is to promote a sound Biblical understanding and practice of Jesus’ principles in raising disciples in the North American context and to develop a disciple raising manual.”
source
By the way, I reverted back to the small picture style, instead of using Featured Images. Any preferences?
Some Christian leaders don’t like to be told their wrong. We attended a Church a few months ago and the Lord spoke to me to speak up about a certain Pastor who was not preaching about Jesus but himself. I sensed there was something wrong with his preaching. I told him in private and he threw our family out of his church. I told him God sent me like Nathan to loving warn him. A few weeks after he threw me out he admitted that he was having an affair to his congregation. His church fell apart. I ran into him and told him that I loved him and praying for his family. God sometimes wants us to speak up. God led us to an amazing body of believers.
That is an unfortunate event to hear, Freedom. I like the quote I read recently, that the test of good religion is whether or not you can laugh at it or make jokes (I’m paraphrasing. Was this Chesterton?)
“Some Christian leaders don’t like to be told their wrong.”
I think most human beings don’t like to be told they are wrong. We like to think that we are right, at least about some things. It is painful to hear someone say “you are wrong”. Yet is it necessary for all of us to hear such a thing from time to time.
We cross the line into abuse when we constantly tell someone they are wrong, which is a double-edged sword both ubfers and ex-ubfers have to deal with.
Some older missionaries have a really hard time being told they are wrong especially if it comes from:
1. a younger person.
2. a native (non-missionary).
3. someone who has left ubf.
But they have less of a problem being told they are wrong if it comes from:
1. an older senior missionary leader.
2. their own children.
Sorry if this comes across as a broad sweeping generalization, something I know that I am often guilty of. So please feel free to disagree.
Well said Brian. Ben Toh it would help much for UBF leaders if they attended healthy churches and really went there to learn from others and let go of the twisted mentality that UBF is the best church in their world and begin to examine how they twist God love into a ministry of works and their worship of man rules. They need to embrace families and allow freedom.
That would be excellent, Freedom! But for the first 25 years of my Christian life in ubf, I never thought I needed to ever check out other churches, ministries or Bible commentaries.
It was because I believed that ubf is the best in ministry and messages, and has really nothing to learn from others. In fact others should come and learn from us.
Hopefully such a mentality may change.
The picture of the church presented in the New Testament is one body with diverse parts acting together in a high degree of interdependence.
The picture of the church I received from ubf was one person or family standing alone to build their own fellowship from scratch through heroic self effort and sacrifice, ignoring the presence of other Christians all around them. It bore little resemblance to the church of the New Testament. In fact, it was much closer to Juche (“self-reliance”), the governing philosophy of North Korea.
I like the new site! I wanted to write an article not long ago about engaging in meaningful dialogue, but I was never able to pin down exactly what to say. Thank you for posting this article, because it really got me thinking.
After my relatively short time in UBF (just about a year), it seems to me that the problem, at least for my chapter, wasn’t so much the unwillingness of the pastor to listen to criticism as it was the overall structure of the ministry, including the senior shepherds and shepherdesses. Actually, the pastor was by my estimation a very humble man with an honest heart for God, but it was the way the community was networked that was the problem for real communication.
Now I want to write an article about structure, but we’ll see if I ever get around to it!
Thanks Hertoa, and welcome back. We would appreciate hearing your thoughts in an article. Just click the “Submit an Article” link at the top of this page and your article will automatically enter our publishing queue (and kick off an email reminder to get it actually posted).
Leah Remini is a “2nd gen” Scientologist being born into the group. Her recent interview on 20/20 after 30 years in Scientology has similar echos of people’s stories who have experienced and then left UBF: the authoritarian leadership that controls and guilt trips their members, playing favorites, fear of leaving, being cut off after leaving, not able to adjust and move on after leaving, being bad mouthed after leaving, etc. Quite interesting.
seems man’s religions in general from catholic i grew up, to ubf, to other religions, have too often harmed (or even destroyed) sincere/vulnerable God seekers (either by accident? or on purpose for echelon benefit?) thereby leaving individuals to search on in religion/society (as i used to do) hoping to find godly help instead of human harm, or search out healing/help from God alone/directly (as i ended up doing..)
Mark: “…probably same thing bishops used to say for decades until the weight of priest child sex abuse tilted too far…”
This reminded me of the excellent movie Spotlight, which I just began to see.
Except for one case where a father sexually molested his own daughter over many years (that I’m aware of), UBF does not have widespread sex abuse cover up.
Of course, this case was never reported to the authorities, “handled internally,” and he is now back in Korea. Rumor has it that he is teaching in an all girls school!
Ben,
While it may seem ubf does not have a widespread sexual abuse problem, there are two big issues.
One, we just don’t know the extent. This is THE big problem all over ubf–we don’t know. Those who might know are too afraid to speak up or they speak up anonymously. This is the difficulty when examining all things about ubf.
Two, we DO know there is not just one case, as you presume. There were 13 incidents with at least 6 victims in New York ubf, which was reported to the NYPD. There are a few cases reported in the 150+ internet testimonies, if you read through them. There are multiple cases known in Toledo ubf.
At one time, many Catholics said the same, there are just one or two cases, but it is not widespread. They claimed there are just one or to bad priests. Well, we now that is not the case at all.
I have learned that when religious leaders admit “one or two cases”, it means there is a high probability that there are many more cases hiding behind the scenes. Mostly it means the leaders want people to stop looking for abuse so that they can get back to “loving Jesus”.
In regard to the movie, I am not prepared enough to watch it yet. It would make my blood boil, knowing all the unreported and improperly addressed abuse of many kinds at ubf.
probably not widespread, but unlikely singular as milieu breeds behavior; also if the outposts of the “Center” had episodic issue, one would wonder if Center was less prone (more spotlight) or more prone (less oversight)?
Hey everyone, if you haven’t noticed, we are now highlighting the 5 most commented articles in a featured slider at the top. Let me know if you would like to see something else featured there.
After some off-line discussions, I have decided it is time for another installment of the Karcher message review.
Yes believe it or not, I was able to stomach reading not one but TWO ubf lectures this week. It was a most depressing experience. But I think it is helpful to publicly discuss these supposed “world class messages”. Has the message quality improved in 2016? Or is it the same as in 1976? Stay tuned!
The comment section in the thread that you linked to reminded me of the epic discussions we had on the old site. I learned so much from those conversations. Thanks for supporting that site, Brian.
Yes, I enjoyed those conversations David! I enjoyed our discussions and I learned very much as well. I wonder if there is anyone left at ubf to have such intelligent and engaging discussions with?
I know for a fact that there are some there who are more than capable of engaging in this way. The problem comes when you want to discuss anything of substance concerning the ministry in a public forum. All of a sudden, mum’s the word for the sake of not hindering the growth of young participants in the organization, or something like that.
@David:
“I know for a fact that there are some there who are more than capable of engaging in this way. The problem comes when you want to discuss anything of substance concerning the ministry in a public forum. ”
I hope you are correct. I for one will ONLY discuss with ubf people publicly. Anything they say to me ought to withstand public visibility. The fact that they don’t debate me publicly demonstrates that their purpose is evil. If I ever talk to the ubfers again, it will only be in an unscripted environment where they cannot control me.
I personally wouldn’t subscribe to the statement that all who refuse to discuss these issues publicly do so out of evil motives. Some want change and they realize that speaking publicly would be counterproductive. But I don’t want to say much more about this. Tired of talking about this organization. I know that there are some really wonderful people there. I choose to see them as more than their affiliation with ubf, though that may play a significant role in their lives.
“If I ever talk to the ubfers again, it will only be in an unscripted environment where they cannot control me.”
That’s precisely the approach I’m taking these days. I try to talk with ubf members about non-ubf things; just relate person-person.
“I personally wouldn’t subscribe to the statement that all who refuse to discuss these issues publicly do so out of evil motives.”
Yea I suppose you’re right, I apologize for implying that. My point is that the collective, longstanding silence by the leaders is a kind of evil. The maddening silence that thousands of former members and former leaders experience is indeed evil. If they are world class leaders, have the true gospel, and really desire to help all people of all nations, why are they all so afraid of public discourse?
Hi Brian.
As your friend, I urge you to reconsider. If you publish more negative reviews, God will shoot you with arrows, as per today’s daily bread. You cannot defeat God’s servants.
God bless you.
#####
PONDER WHAT GOD HAS DONE
Psalm 64:1-10
Key verse: Psalm 64:9
February 9, 2016
First, those who sharpen their tongues (1-6). Men in leadership positions are vulnerable to attack. David is especially aware of the evil plans which crafty men devise against him. Satan is always seeking an opportunity to destroy God’s servants with words. He uses gossip, lies, half-truths, slander, etc.
Second, God will shoot them with arrows (7-8). God is wiser than men. No matter how much evil men encourage each other in evil or how perfect are the plans they make, they cannot defeat God. God will shoot them with arrows; he will turn their own tongues against them.
Third, all mankind will fear the Lord (9-10). When God defeats the enemies of his servants, all people will fear God’s name. The wicked will tremble, and the righteous will rejoice in the Lord and take refuge in him.
Prayer: Lord, protect your servants from Satan’s attack. Let all mankind fear you and proclaim your mighty works.
One word: Ponder what the Lord has done
Thanks for the warning 🙂
I’m not afraid though, since the only one who would be shooting me with arrows is SL, and he is dead.
Brian, you asked, “Has the message quality improved in 2016? Or is it the same as in 1976?”
My spontaneous response is that UBF messages have basically inclined to be imperative driven. Some common ones are:
* just obey
* write testimonies
* deny yourself
* take up your cross (of mission)
* live a life of mission
* give your life
* be thankful
* don’t complain
* no dating
* marry by faith
* feed sheep
* engage in one to one Bible study
(I’m sure you can add to this list.)
To the UBFriends audience, it could be:
* shut down the (damn) website!
* move on with your life
* don’t be bitter (or negative, or critical, or play Satan, etc).
Based on the daily bread it is:
* don’t you ever dare criticize any SERVANT OF GOD!
Oh yes, I missed one glaring imperative: WORK HARD(ER)!
I was trying to figure out why I felt so disturbed after reading the DB on Psalm 64. Thanks a lot, Joe, for posting it!
I realize that it is because UBF Bible teachers and leaders put themselves in the “hero’s position.” So in this DB they are the hero David–the servant of God–who was getting lied about and slandered.
Their presumptuous assumption is that anyone who dares to say anything against the hero–the UBF leader/shepherd/missionary–is automatically Satan whom God will oppose.
Therefore anyone who says anything against the “servant(s) of God” in UBF is always wrong and they are going to get it from God!
It hardly matters at all whether what is spoken or written is true or not. As long as it is against the hero, the servant of God, it is wrong.
Is this why I was so disturbed and perturbed by reading the DB?
“Is this why I was so disturbed and perturbed by reading the DB?”
I don’t know Ben. Perhaps you are just perturbed in general! In any case, I am Satan…it’s the only thing I excel at… 🙂
Yeah, somehow I seem to give the impression that I’m generally perturbed! But I often think of myself as a generally very happy person … simply because of the grace of Jesus that is always before me.
On Sunday I was especially happy because the creaking “old guy” beat the brash “young guy” in the Superbowl!
Ben, you are right. The hubris of people who read Bible passages and reflexively put themselves into the hero’s position is very disturbing.
What I found even more disturbing, though, is how the author of this DB page impugns the character of God. He or she paints a picture of a God who is ready to shoot down and kill everyone whom the psalmist regards as an enemy.
This is a very bad way to approach the Psalms.
Psalm 64 gives an accurate account of how the psalmist prayed. It shows how the psalmist envisioned God. But it doesn’t necessarily give an accurate portrayal of God himself. Since the earliest days of the church, thoughtful Christians have understood that the Psalms do not always show God as he is. Throughout the Old Testament, aspects of YHWH’s character are being discussed, debated, and sporadically uncovered. Misconceptions about YHWH abound. But when Jesus comes on the scene, he reveals exactly who God is, leading people to reinterpret the Old Testament and see it in a new light. The person who wrote the DB page doesn’t understand this. He or she took the Psalmist’s description of God at face value and portrayed him as a vindictive tribal deity, nothing at all like the Christ of the gospels.
If Jesus spoke to this psalmist, would he say, “Stand back so I can shoot all your enemies”?
No. Jesus would say, “Love your enemies, because I love them. Think of your enemies the way that you would like them to think of you.”
@David, this is an intriguing statement to me: “Some want change and they realize that speaking publicly would be counterproductive.” Why would speaking publicly be counterproductive? Maybe I am not understanding the kind of change some are seeking.
I’ll attempt to answer Brian’s question: “Why are they all so afraid of public discourse?”
1) English is often not their primary language.
2) Some from an honor shame culture feel that it is dishonorable to be publicly critiqued or disagreed with or challenged.
3) Fear that their public statements would be misconstrued and attacked.
4) Unfamiliarity and discomfort with social media and even emails!
5) Generally not in favor of being vulnerable and transparent.
6) A firm belief that they are “protecting” UBF from undue and unreasonable scrutiny, in their opinion.
7) They prefer the perspective from the hunter’s position and do not wish to hear the hunted lion’s side of the story.
I’m sure there are more reasons. In my opinion, this is not likely to change anytime soon, barring a supernatural miracle.
Ben, you forgot the most obvious reason.
Because the truth about what has gone on / does go on in the organization is deeply embarrassing. They really don’t want to admit it. Nor do they want to deny it, because they don’t want to get caught telling bald faced lies. Keeping silent is the option that seems least bad. But it causes a great deal of inner turmoil (Ps 32:3-5).
“English is often not their primary language.”
That has never made them feel uncomfortable preaching from the pulpit, scolding people and making Bible study with them all in English language.
You’re right Joe, I didn’t think of that reason.
Perhaps all the reasons for not wishing to have any public discourse can be summed up into only two reasons: FEAR and/or SHAME.
So silence comes from fear and/or shame of:
1) Admitting the truth.
2) Not being as smart and articulate as Joe, Chris or Brian!
3) Being shown and proven to be wrong.
4) Being HOT: honest, open, transparent.
5) Having to answer to juniors, subordinates and ex-UBFers.
6) Being sued.
7) More people leaving.
One (Two) Words: Be strong and courageous (Josh 1:8). Speak the truth (Eph 4:15) because Jesus is the truth (Jn 1:14; 14:6).
I think fear of legal consequences and fear of the fact that no one actually knows what they’re doing are really big players.
That’s why you make a constitution with some articles to make the playing field open and fair.
One of the first things I learned in teaching is that you have power as a teacher, and you have to make ways for people to come to you with real issues. If you don’t make a clear system of feedback, people can’t/won’t let you know.
The North America Coordinator came to our ministry (one of the last of his friendly visits) and asked (not at WS but later with just the missionaries and me) if there were any problems that we wanted to discuss.
You have to make a way for people to address problems not in front of their leaders. The way he did that is that he doesn’t see any problem with the status quo.
Any developed organization these days understands that you just can’t ask people to talk about the problems they have with their superiors. You have to make a system to receive real issues and find out the truth and deal with them.
They’re afraid because that rabbit hole just keeps going and going . . .
Chris, you see things from many angles, which is very good: “That has never made them feel uncomfortable preaching from the pulpit, scolding people…in English.”
That’s a very good observation, which you had mentioned before. I think it is because being on the pulpit preaching, scolding, rebuking, giving direction is basically scripted, and from a position of authority, which does not welcome any objection or challenge.
But in an informal public forum they perhaps feel naked and helpless. Then they can only “win” by humility, appeal, reason and logical arguments, and not by any top down hierarchical insistence that they are the leader who must be listened to and obeyed.
Mr.C says very wisely: “…make the playing field open and fair.”
But, but, but, the senior top chapter director’s voice has to absolutely prevail and “rule over” younger, proud, inexperienced, upstart wanna be juniors who need to be clearly taught so that they know their (lower silent) place in the ecclesiastical hierarchy.
This kind of authoritarian control, by the way, are direct results of people applying Buddhist and Confucian principles in life with no real empathy.
A lot of my students from countries in Asia often act terrified of me. Students who finally figure out the American style of education (with all its faults) find themselves learning more, growing more, developing more, because they’re actually learning, and not becoming a subservient automaton of an authority figure.
I teach freewriting in my class and some students, it literally takes them 6-8 weeks to realize they can write anything and that it’s more fun when it’s real and authentic.
There are just an abundance of lessons that American students/leaders could share with these lovable missionaries.
St. Benedict admonished his Abbots and leaders to listen to the newcomers, because sometimes Christ speaks through them to humble the leaders!
Ask me to throw off the tyrranny of materialism, escapism, and over-indulgence of the USA culture, ok. Sounds good.
I think God has called UBF to america to crash against the rocks (real believers and people called among them) so they can see that they too need to throw off the chains of Buddhist/Confucian teaching.
To some older people, not necessarily just in UBF, they have become so set in their ways that it is virtually practically impossible for them to change.
In my opinion, the authoritarian hierarchical culture of UBF is rather rigidly inflexibly non-negotiable. It often seems that some of them would rather UBF be shredded and decimated, rather than them “coming off their high horse” or not having their say or their way prevailing over anyone younger or junior to them.
As always I hope I’m wrong.