Wesley’s Reflection on Authority and Authoritarianism
(Editorial Comment: This is Wesley’s detailed and lively unedited response to Ben’s sermon on “Shepherding Sheep” last Sun, May 26, 2013, at West Loop.)
Ben, I enjoyed your sermon. It’s really good. I find it worth reading more than once, carefully looking up all the Bible quotations. A theme that stands out is warning against “hierarchical leadership,” that is “the leadership style built on a chain-of-command social structure.” This warning can never be overstated. One of the main reasons I had hard time with my three sons growing up was that I exercised hierarchical leadership. Here is a Korean father, imbued with Confucianism, trying to raise three all-American boys. I only thank God for the relationship we have right now. It could have been much worse, even disastrous.
Believers or non-believers, the modern people must thank Jesus that heroes from the past, who were inspired by Jesus’ warning against hierarchical leadership, fought against tyrannical social structure throughout history. Non-believers must thank God for Jesus more than believers because they are more inclined to reject authority. It is irony that I have learned servant leadership in no other place than UBF, which many ubfriends accuse of hierarchical leadership. One of the messages that moved me most as I began Bible study in my college days was Mark Vucekovich’s Niagara summer Bible conference message on John 13, Jesus’ washing his disciples’ feet. As a young sheep I was so refreshed by the message that my experience could be described almost as shock. I did not even attend the conference because I was still in Korea. I was just reading his printed message. Here I am not trying to glorify UBF messages. It was just the word of God that touched me. But it is still valid claim that God uses, not only big name pastors or theologians, but even such a young messenger like Mark V, who was only in his early twenties, or even younger. (Obviously I am referring to your concern about ISBC.)
Sometimes I have some crooked thoughts and wish just a little bit of hierarchical leadership existed in Lehigh UBF. I am supposed to be the director. But I am actually close to being a janitor. If anything happens in the church, everybody assumes that Wesley will take care of the problem. The church back door breaks down quite frequently. Everybody assumes that Wesley will fix it. For remodeling work, people come in through the front door and linger a while and then go out through the backdoor. I call my directorship “janitorship.” (Of course I can work like a janitor, but act toward others like Kim Jong Il.) But who am I to complain? I thank God for everybody. Each is doing his or her best to serve God and build up the church. I haven’t seen anyone who works as hard as one American guy in our church. It is my constant struggle I work as much as he does, if not more.
Hierarchical leadership really doesn’t work. History proves it. Numerous tyrannical leaders in the position of power ruined countries and brought misery to people. The same is true with church as you described it so well. Is UBF more prone to hierarchical leadership than other churches? It’s very possible because many of us came from Confucius background. We have hard time being called by first name even by young children. I still call my friend Dr. Bill, not just Bill. Sometimes I grumble to myself because he calls me Wesley and I feel compelled to call him Dr. Bill. This is Mr. Confucius’ yoke that I must carry. Then what should we do? I guess we must keep learning from Jesus, take his warnings, read Ben’s message many times, and even memorize them. (This is also what Confucius’ teaching: Memorize great teachings and know them by heart.)
Now since I admit we from Confucius background are more prone to hierarchical leadership and we have been battered so much for that, I also want to say some benefits UBF people with Confucius background brought to Westerners, that are aligned with Biblical teachings. Predictably, one of them is acceptance of authority, which Koreans people find it easier than Americans do.
One of the most frequent phrases that ubfriends try to define ubf with is “authoritarian leadership.” (I always said why it is understandable.) And somewhat the phrase “hierarchical leadership” Ben used in his message seems to have similar meaning to authoritarian leadership. Now here is the monster we must watch out for–authoritarian leadership. On the other hand I think we must be very careful as we constantly give ourselves and others warning against authoritarian leadership. Here is why. Quite often the line between authority and authoritarianism becomes obscure, especially for those who are in the habit of resisting the Holy Spirit. People get in troubles, often very big troubles, when they confuse authority with authoritarianism. One good example is a group of rebellious Israelites in the wilderness, including Korah and Miriam—Moses’ own sister, who stood up against Moses. They of course accused him of authoritarianism. They said, “You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the Lord is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the Lord’s assembly?”(Num 16:3b) We know the end result of their rebellion. Here we see Korah and his group did not say they opposed Moses’ authority that was given by God, but that Moses had gone too far beyond the authority God allowed him to have. Their downfall was they did not know where to draw the line between authority and authoritarianism.
Compared with the amount of warnings he gave against hierarchical leadership, Ben allowed only very small space, two and half lines, for disciplining people who sin in the church. If people like Korah and Miriam had been among the audience, they would have very easily failed to get proper warning. I am not sure if Ben is planning to give another great message to help such people. Maybe he is. People who are eager to blur the line between authority and authoritarianism may be as dangerous as people who exercise authoritarian leadership, if not more. Just look at the society these days. Where is it going? I don’t think I am wrong to say that the major problem of Westerners these days is to deny any and every authority. They deny authorities one by one, those of parents, teachers, churches, and so on. When Westerners abandon all the authorities including the authority of God, its end result will be more disastrous than for Asians because the latter have had at least Confucius for centuries.
When I give the example of Moses, I dare not compare lowly ubf shepherds with him. I am just giving example of danger of confusing authority with authoritarianism. If anything, I would compare the lowly ubf shepherds who are rarely trained in theology–humble nurses, school teachers…, to a donkey, to be specific Balaam’s donkey. But you’d better watch out and not oppose them when they speak to you with God-given authority. If God gave Balaam’s donkey authority to give his master his words, why not these humble ubf shepherds? And don’t be so eager to oppose a ubf director when he speaks to you just because you suspect he is exercising authoritarian leadership. He may be actually speaking to you through the Holy Spirit. It was a humble house wife who spoke to me through the Holy Spirit, which brought about my conversion. She actually said that I was possessed with unclean spirit using the Bible passage from Mark 1:21-28. But I accepted it, which opened my spiritual eyes to see myself not only as flesh and blood, but as a spiritual being, who was in desperate need of God. What if I opposed her, saying, “You little woman, how dare you?” My destiny would have not been too different from that of Korah, who the ground opened it’s mouth and swallowed.
My warning against confusing authority with authoritarianism does not lessen the importance of watching out for hierarchical leadership. I am just saying that there is the other side of the same coin.
Ben, putting aside your great sermon, which I have a lot to learn from, I must add I was greatly disappointed with your ascribing ubf church’s generosity of helping my wife in her sickness to Korean hospitality, even alluding to Korean Airline hospitality. It just doesn’t make sense. I am sure all those who came to visit us were often busy and had hundreds of other things to do. How do you think they found strength to overcome their busyness and tiredness to come and visit us with food? Do you think that they remembered their mothers’ or grandmothers’ example of practicing Korean hospitality and deny themselves to come and visit us? I wouldn’t be able to do it myself. Maybe for a few days, but not for eight months.
Anyway thank you for your effort to study the Bible and give great messages to God’s sheep in West Loop Church. Several photos of West Loop Church on Facebook are lively and show that the members are doing well.
Still born free.
Wesley wrote:
“If anything, I would compare the lowly ubf shepherds who are rarely trained in theology–humble nurses, school teachers…, to a donkey, to be specific Balaam’s donkey. But you’d better watch out and not oppose them when they speak to you with God-given authority. If God gave Balaam’s donkey authority to give his master his words, why not these humble ubf shepherds?”
Suppose God has convicted me that many things that have been done within this organization, and still are being done, are offensive to God. And suppose I present that message to the organization’s leaders but they repeatedly ignore it. Would you say to them, “You’d better watch out”?
Authoritarianism says “I lied, but I did it by faith, so it’s ok:)”
Holy Spirit says “Repent & Believe God” (not self)
true faith repents of lies & tries to do better
Joe…good point. It only works on the side of UBF…everyone has to repent but the lowly shepherds…I like the words of Abraham Lincoln….this is paraphase….God does not chose sides, I am on God side….He is always right…
Mark…usually what a sheherd rebukes a sheep of is the same thing he does…Romans….yes repent and believe God
Joe, absolutely yes. You may be to UBF what Luther was to Catholic church, so to speak. It is my simple Christian conviction that truth eventually prevails. But if you want them to watch out when you speak, you’d better watch out yourself when you speak. Your burden of being right may be of more serious matter than theirs when you bring charges against them being offensive to God. In this kind of contentions situation the words of Gamaliel may be helpful both to you and them: “Then he addressed the Sanhedrin: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men.”(Acts 5:35)
Wesley, I wish I had a dollar for every time that ubf members and leaders have told me, “You have to watch out for how you say these things,” and, “You have to watch out that no bitter root is growing in your heart.” Countless times I have been told, “It’s not WHAT you are saying that’s offensive, it’s HOW you are saying it.” Somehow, the conversation always gets turned around to focus on style and speculation about my motives, and the substance gets avoided.
Once a ubf leader told me (paraphrase), “You are not saying this correctly. You are being too disrespectful” So I asked him to correct me. I begged him to teach me exactly how to say the things I was trying to say. His response? Silence.
Wesley, you wrote, “Your burden of being right may be of more serious matter than theirs when you bring charges against them being offensive to God.”
Here is a sampling of messages that I have heard coming from the pulpit in UBF. Most of these things originated with SL, but they were repeated by many fellowship leaders and chapter directors.
* Americans are lazy and undisciplined.
* Americans are like vending machines.
* Americans are proud and rebellious.
* Americans are hedonistic.
* Americans have fallen man’s mentality. They have “their own idea” and they are full of “human thinking.”
* Prayer topics for “HNW’s” (high-minded North American women)
I was discipled in an environment that was rife with this kind of talk. As an American, I could have been offended. But I swallowed it. I was willing to accept a great deal of prejudice and judgmentalism and very shallow analysis of the American culture by people who didn’t understand it. Yet they presumed themselves to be missionaries and acted as if they had authority over me. And they never showed any willingness to have their beliefs or practices questioned.
So it now strikes me as odd that you say I have a greater burden to check myself when discussing ubf leaders’ behavior. I just don’t understand why you said that.
Wesley, charges against people does not offend God (it offends their religious pride); failing to address evil does offend God
Joe (Luther:), thanks for your courage to nail theses to the church door; some disregard theses, but boldness of Spirit is “contagious” generating wave of holy reform that can’t be stopped
(Luther Thesis 86 of 95: “Why does the pope, whose wealth today is greater than the wealth of the richest Crassus, build the basilica of Saint Peter with the money of poor believers rather than with his own money?”)
@wesley, while Gamaliel’s argument may indeed contain some wisdom, that event can become a weapon and used dangerously.
Consider the conclusion of that story:
Acts 5:40-42 “40 His speech persuaded them. They called the apostles in and had them flogged.x Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. 41 The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicingy because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name.z 42 Day after day, in the temple courtsa and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good newsb that Jesus is the Messiah.”
In that event, we see the Sanhedrin vs. the apostles. Gamiliel (a Pharisee) persuaded the Sanhedrin to let the apostles go. The Sanhedrin flogged the apostles and told them to stop talking about Jesus, then let them go. The apostles disobeyed the direction of the Sanhedrin and did talk about Jesus.
Are you implying that the Sanhedrin=exubf and the apostles=ubf? Or the other way around? Are you implying that we former members should leave ubf alone, being persuaded by you and James (Gamiliel) to “let them go”?
Bringing up this example is highly problematic in my mind, and was discussed once before in the old forums. Please clarify what you mean for us.
Brian, when I quoted Gamaliel my focus was only on two words: “consider carefully,” nothing else. Who is who? I don’t even want to think about it. I said “consider carefully” in the context of doing or saying something in the name of God, especially in this case Joe speaking to ubf elders and the latter responding the former.
And by doing that you are binding the situation to Scripture. This is unhealthy. I do this too and I’m trying to avoid doing it. But such methods of communicating are deeply ingrained in me. I quote bible verses and draw the readers in, which binds their situation or the situation being discussed to the bible.
My pastor rebuked me not too long ago: Why do you always put youself in the bible? We cannot take parts of the bible out of context and view ourselves as so invovled in the bible stories.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fFbmg8UL8w
There are huge differences between two cultures, east and west. Jesus is above all cultures. Even though one culture is not necessarily superior to another culture, Korean missionaries have great responsibility to humbly learn western culture for the sake of cross-cultural ministry.
James, this is very true:
“Even though one culture is not necessarily superior to another culture, Korean missionaries have great responsibility to humbly learn western culture for the sake of cross-cultural ministry.”
Americans are not superior to Koreans, nor vice-versa. But who came to whom as a missionary claiming to see? Americans are becoming anti-missionaries in Africa, taking a form of American Christianity and implanting it unfarily in Africa.
Koreans in ubf did the same thing around the world. Anyone who claims to be a Christian missionary has the burden of understanding and adapting to the host culture. There are ways to do this that do not deny who you are as a missionary.
Also, if we are only dealing with cultural issues in ubf, the issues would have been resolved long ago. I can work with all kinds of cultures. But cultural issues are only one small layer. The theolgy holes and the overprescribing of the bible for human problems are two layers of issues that are far more important to address than culture.
John 9:41 comes to mind when I think about ubf chapter directors who claim to see: Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.”
I agree Brian; I think SL took a shortcut (Greatness-seeking) that worked to inspire post-war Koreans to go out as missionaries, but backfired by bearing deformed spiritual fruit
There are some cultural differences between Koreans and Americans, but this does not explain away abusive relationships. Whether it is cultural or not, it is still sin. Every time I ever brought up what I felt were unhealthy leadership practices, it was dismissed as simply a cultural difference.
Yet, I was not allowed to be culturally different. Can you imagine the response from most Korean directors when American students reject Korean leadership and tell Korean leadership to deal with it because it is simply a cultural difference?
For me personally, the cultural difference argument is infuriating. It is often used to justify sin, unhealthy relationships, abuse, etc. and to resist changing any of these things.
What really needs to change is the culture of UBF. It has an unhealthy culture of its own that I believe is separate from either Korean or American culture. I think the reason that tension between Korean and American culture is cited as a source of problems is because in UBF culture American culture is denigrated constantly and Korean culture is glorified constantly.
namuehling, you’re completely right. The “cultural differences” excuse is wrong and a red herring. I can’t repeat it often enough: If the problems were cause by cultural differences only, then why have the reform movements of 1976, 1989 and 2001 all been started by Koreans? Likewise, if these problems were caused by cultural differences, why do we see so very similar problems in shepherding/discipling movements based in America?
Sin is sin, and abuse is abuse, no matter whether you’re a Korean or an American. The Korean senior shepherds of 1976 recognized and described the abuse very clearly, not so much different than an American of 2013. And I still haven’t heared one word of UBF to rehabilitate the people of 1976 and excuse for the abuse and evil teachings and inaccountability of Samuel Lee. We shouldn’t allow them to play stupid with us.
Thanks, Wesley, for a lively response to my sermon, which I thoroughly enjoyed reading. You wrote: “Quite often the line between authority and authoritarianism becomes obscure, especially for those who are in the habit of resisting the Holy Spirit. People get in troubles, often very big troubles, when they confuse authority with authoritarianism.”
When I came to the U.S. in 1980 I was surprised at the subtle or blatant rejection or disrespectful toward authority. But authoritarianism (in the name of authority) is not the (biblical, godly, Christ-like) way to get anyone to submit to authority. Rather, it is love, trust and humility.
You also wrote “Hierarchical leadership really doesn’t work. History proves it.” Well, we may not need to go so far, and can just look at UBF history. From 1976 till today, almost 100% of committed Christians who left UBF left primarily because of the authoritarianism of the top leader in any particular UBF chapter or nation.
Good words Ben. Here is a blatant exampel from 2013.
To whose authority would I submit to right now? In a heartbeat I would submit to Ben’s authority. He has earned my respect and trust. Even though his background is steeped in Eastern thought and I am steeped in Western thought, we can work together. Even though Ben is a ubfer and I am an exubfer, I feel as though we could do amazing Christain minstry together. My wife and I are glad to be an honory elder in Westloop.
Would I submit to Wesley or JamesK? No way. While I can respect you, it must be at a distance. You have not earned my trust in any significant way. And almost all other ubf directors remain silent, so I vieew them as dangerous to my soul.
Ben, yes “love, trust and humility” indeed. That’s what we want. Whether “our top leader”(a little uncomfortable expression) was authoritarian or not is really disputable matter. Only eight years after the War, when people were steeped into despair and fatalism and would not budge to get up, someone had to kick their butts. If God had chosen me to do it, I would have loved to do it myself. God would have had to work on me first to muster some courage.
Now time is different. Some UBF clowns so called directors or shepherds have imitated “our top leader” in a wrong time and wrong places. I would join you in kicking their butts also.
“Whether ‘our top leader’ … was authoritarian or not is really disputable matter.”
Wesley, sometimes I really get upset. This is definitely not a disputable matter. Samuel Lee definitely was authoritarian by all possible meanings of the word. If we can’t agree on that, I really don’t know on what we can agree in this world. What he did was authoritarian and wrong and evil, and the Korean senior shepherds understood and recognized it very well in the Korea of 1976, and later in the USA of 2000. No matter in which time and place he did these things, they were authoritarian and wrong. Have you ever read the letter of 1976? Do you really want to say the things described there were not authoritarian and wrong?
Also, I find it really mean of you to call UBF directors and shepherds clowns when they imitated the great leader. The whole ministry of UBF is based on imitation of leaders, it’s all the members in UBF ever learn. And when they faithfully do it, you blame them? Blame the real culprit, the one who set up the bad example and trained all others to follow him. Samuel Lee was the one who brought autoritarianism in the church, and now you turn everything upside down and say Samuel Lee was not authoritarian, and blame those who followed him? I don’t get it! It really makes me crazy to discuss on this level.
Americans got carried away (hippies free love,etc) partly in overreaction to autocratic government (Vietnam War,Watergate scandal,etc)
bad to be a rebel without a cause, but good to be a reformer with a cause:)
@wesley, Korah’s rebellion has many interesting twists, and that story too is highly problematic in the ubf context. Why? Because SLee used that story specifically against the reformers in the past, quoting that against them.
I find verse 15 to be key to applying that passage correctly: “15 Then Moses became very angry and said to the Lord, “Do not accept their offering. I have not taken so much as a donkey from them, nor have I wronged any of them.”
If ubf chapter directors can honesty say before God they have not “wronged any of them”, then we can accept that they are like Moses perhaps.
But if a ubf chapter director has wronged someone, then they have no right whatsoever to consider themselves as Moses and the former members as Korah who rebelled.
So in Korah’s rebellion, the issue was NOT authority vs authoritarinism. The issue was justice. Who was doing what was right before the Lord? Justice is not a cultural thing, though our cultural sense of justice does hinder our sense of God’s justice.
As Mark mentioned here, the issue was not whose side was God on, but who was on God’s side. Who belongs to the Lord? That is the question. Moses also said “You have gone too far!” They both thought the other had gone too far. The Lord decided. And it is the case for ubf too. The Lord will decide.
4 When Moses heard this, he fell facedown. 5 Then he said to Korah and all his followers: “In the morning the Lord will show who belongs to him and who is holy, and he will have that person come near him.p The man he chooses he will cause to come near him. 6 You, Korah, and all your followers are to do this: Take censerss 7 and tomorrow put burning coals and incense in them before the Lord. The man the Lord chooses will be the one who is holy. You Levites have gone too far!”
Brian, I agree: Bible interpretation/application is the issue. We need Holy Spirit help to avoid misapplying (like Joe tells us: stats can be used or misused).
Like Chris said, you can’t blame the imitators/responsibility lies with leader. Reform movements starting in ’76 were not trying to usurp SL’s power, they were questioning ungodly leadership acts. They were willing to follow him if he changed tyrannical ways. However, they could not in conscience continue to be silent/comply, becoming unintended accomplices
@Wesley, I use the phrase “top leader” as the head of any UBF chapter, and not just to SL, because the “top leader” may communicate that their authority should not be questioned, and must be followed and obeyed, or face some consequence.
This does not reveal Christ’s humility nor does it empower anyone. It primarily communicates this: “Everything in my UBF chapter must go through me.” Such a mindset will destroy UBF. Perhaps correctives are happening.
So what I am looking for in others, especially church leaders, is this:
1) Evidence of godly sorrow — “See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter.” 2 Corinthians 7:11
2) Marks of the gospel Jesus proclaimed — grace; peace; life (salvation); kingdom; glory of Jesus; forgiveness; fulfillment; freedom; rest; love; joy; justice.
Look for these and your eyes begin opening, both to see other people clearly and your self more accurately.
So if a leader or someone claiming to be a missionary shows me those traits, I will gladly submit to your authority and say “Yes sir!”.
But in the absence of these traits, I will be a rebel soul til the day I die, and a thorn in the side of those who claim to see and claim to have authority.
Ben, amen to “correctives are happening.”
Brian, your words like these:, “So if a leader or someone claiming to be a missionary shows me those traits, I will gladly submit to your authority and say ‘Yes sir!’.But in the absence of these traits, I will be a rebel soul til the day I die, and a thorn in the side of those who claim to see and claim to have authority” make me feel I should meet you sometime. I have never met you before. I hope to see “these traits” in you and gladly submit to your authority and say “Yes sir!” and vice versa. Isn’t it God’s sovereign plan to make one out of very different two?
“I have never met you before. I hope to see “these traits” in you and gladly submit to your authority”
Wesley, the difference is that people like Brian or me don’t claim to have authority over you or anybody else (except maybe some authority over our own kids). We don’t want you to submit under our authority. We just want you to do the right thing, because it is right, not because somebody with authority told it to you.
“Wesley, the difference is that people like Brian or me don’t claim to have authority over you or anybody else (except maybe some authority over our own kids). We don’t want you to submit under our authority.”
Exactly, Chris. Wesley, I’ll have a beer with you someday. You can have ginger beer if you want. But there won’t be any submitting to authority between us. And I know that we have met, or at least we’ve seen each other quite a few times at staff conferences or other conferences.
I did not go to the Lehigh dedication, but I can see you standing next to Dr. Bill in this photo at the bottom of the page:
new center dedication
“Ben allowed only very small space, two and half lines, for disciplining people who sin in the church. If people like Korah and Miriam had been among the audience, they would have very easily failed to get proper warning.”
Wesley you did not mention that Ben refers to Matthew 18:15-17. The message was about shepherding sheep and not about discipline, but it did address discipline in a biblical way.
Discipline should come from the Bible and not from preference. I remember having this conversation with a brother in the ministry many years ago. Biblical or preferential?? It should be possible to locate the grounds for discipline in the Bible. Old and New testament discipline was a consequence of rebelling against God. It was not a consequence of (un)consciously doing something that your shepherd did not approve of.
Although I appreciate Wesley’s sincerity, this counterbalance of arguments is side stepping the gross abuses that Ben, Joe, Brian and Chris have emphasized on many articles and discussions instead of addressing them. Not once has a discussion on ‘X’ abuse been formally handled in ministry. If it had Ben and Joe, as present members, would be the first to publish it here. As a result, everyone’s emotions are getting worse and the tension grows. Even I lost my nerve.
The list of gross abuses needs to be officially tabled. ‘X’ abuse and activity in the name of “discipline” must be declared unacceptable. Apologies are necessary, but actions to end the abuse are fundamental. I have understood that certain servants oversee mediation between chapter directors and church members in the event of problems. I even remember hearing about keeping confidentiality as well. If this is true, how successful has it been?
If an abusive director is off the radar because the chapter has no growing leaders or co-workers to communicate trouble than little can be done. If members are too afraid to speak up, the same. Knowledge of ongoing abuse that never gets the right attention is unacceptable. How far must a situation go before an abusive director gets disciplined? I will add, some have commented that directors don’t share testimony – that is their spiritual struggle. What proof is there that a director in need of counsel is receiving it? (None of us are righteous, nor are we superhuman.)
+1
Chris, if SL were authoritarian, let him be. I don’t know about you. But for me what mattered more than anything was that the gospel came to me through him (actually through his disciple). A holy saint would not mean a thing to me if he did preach the gospel to me. I would rather prefer an authoritarian who preached the gospel to me to a holy saint, who did not preach the gospel to me.
“Chris, if SL were authoritarian, let him be. … I would rather prefer an authoritarian who preached the gospel to me to a holy saint, who did not preach the gospel to me.”
Yepp, that is the “end justifies the means” theology of UBF I know so well. What you’re saying is: If you somehow can convince a person that the gospel came to the person “through you”, you can do any evil thing, it will always be ok. It is a wrong and disastrous argumentation.
By the way, I do not believe that Samuel Lee preached the gospel. At the most he preached a severly crippled and distorted and tainted gospel, a gospel that is so wrong that I think it would be better to have no gospel at all than these kind of teachings.
Wesley, are you saying that the message you preach is more important than the behavior you model? I think Jesus would disagree.
Wesley,
What is the difference between proper authority in a church and abusive authoritarianism? How can we tell the difference?
Take a look at this 2010 picture.
Do you see the pain? I saw it, but almost no one believed me. The picture in the link was built with authoritarianism. But how would anyone detect that? How would you describe this picture if you knew nothing about the facts of what happened in 2011 and 2012, and the years prior to 2010?
“Just look at the society these days. Where is it going? I don’t think I am wrong to say that the major problem of Westerners these days is to deny any and every authority. They deny authorities one by one, those of parents, teachers, churches, and so on. When Westerners abandon all the authorities including the authority of God, its end result will be more disastrous than for Asians because the latter have had at least Confucius for centuries.”
Wesley, thanks for this article and your attempt to balance this discussion. But I have to take issue with the above statement. To me it is an oversimplification of the tension between individual liberty and governing authorities that has been essential to our nation from the beginning. I don’t think we are in a spiral downward at all. I think we are still working out this tension in remarkable and very positive ways. Yes, there is trouble when people are given freedom. That’s a price I am willing to pay in order to define and maintain basic human liberty as best we can. I read a very good book recently about Roger Williams and his struggle against the tyranny of the puritans in New England.(Roger Williams and the Creation of the American Soul) Yes, I mean tyranny. Most Americans are very aware of the overreaching acts of these early Christian “city on a hill” folk. They don’t consider those times the good old days. I’m glad for this. And many Americans are also aware of the overreaching authority of the moral majority as described in Tim Kellers book Prodigal God. I’m glad that Americans still struggle with this tension openly in remarkable and costly ways.
Hi all, thanks for your comments. I’d like to slow down the conversation a bit so we can ponder an important point Wesley is making: the “danger of confusing authority with authoritarianism.”
@Wesley: what do you mean by “confusing”? Do you mean when a person eschews all authority and does not respect any authority because he views all authority as being authoritarian (let’s call such a person “a rebel”)? It is certainly not good to rebel against legitimate authorities. In Scripture, the legitimate human authorities are parents, husbands, and civil authorities, and the ultimate spiritual authority is God and God’s word as supreme. Those who rebel against these legitimate authorities are disobedient and consequently they suffer and society suffers.
Or do you mean when a pastor confuses the authority of Scripture, which is God’s and is not possessed by anyone other than God, as a positional authority that he can possess? I am not aware of anything resembling “pastoral authority” in Scripture–can you show me where I’m wrong? So authoritarianism is not just the misuse, but more fundamentally, the misappropriation of God’s authority, which is God’s alone, to a person.
The rebel who rejects authority is wrong because he is rejecting the legitimate authorities established by God. But the pastor who misappropriates God’s authority is also wrong because he is attributing something to himself that belongs only to God. It doesn’t particularly matter whether he abuses this authority or not; personally assuming authority IS authoritarian.
You mention Moses; he really doesn’t belong in this conversation. Moses spoke exactly in the place of God. Rebelling against Moses was exactly rebellion against God. But now, all authority has been given to Jesus (Matt 28:18). There is no person like Moses who stands in God’s place and bears God’s authority. Jesus bears all authority, it is a spiritual authority, and it is exercised by the Holy Spirit in the hearts of God’s people to accomplish God’s decree in each person.
Pastors are the ones who must be warned against getting confused: they have no authority, but they possess God’s word which has absolute authority. Their labour is to proclaim God’s word so that sinners can understand it and abdicate themselves to God’s authority.
I’d like to hear everyone’s thoughts; am I off-base from Scripture?
Uh-oh, maybe listing “husbands” as legitimate human authority will land me in the dog house! Better bring some flowers home :)
+1
joshua:
“danger of confusing authority with authoritarianism.”
Yes I agree there are some valid point in Wesley’s statement that should be unpacked and discussed.
“It is certainly not good to rebel against legitimate authorities. In Scripture, the legitimate human authorities are parents, husbands, and civil authorities, and the ultimate spiritual authority is God and God’s word as supreme. Those who rebel against these legitimate authorities are disobedient and consequently they suffer and society suffers.”
Yes I agree with these things. I am not an anarchist, but to ubfers I might appear that way. I would expand your valid point futher by saying: there is a time to rebel against legitimate authority. William Wilburforce comes immediately to mind. If the legitimate authorities condone slavery, for example, something should be done to end slavery.
“Jesus bears all authority, it is a spiritual authority, and it is exercised by the Holy Spirit in the hearts of God’s people to accomplish God’s decree in each person.”
Yes!
“William Wilburforce comes immediately to mind. If the legitimate authorities condone slavery, for example, something should be done to end slavery.”
Yesterday I watched the movie “Amazing Grace” about Wilberforce with my family. There was a scene where the parliament finally seemed to agree that slave trade was evil, but then they still only voted for a “gradual abolition”. I looked at my wife and she looked at me and said “that’s so much like UBF”. I had exactly the same thought when I saw that scene.
Wesley, you’d better look for Jesus in the OT (Jn.5:39). Jesus is the one and only who has authority in the life of a believer. And there is no need even for a born again sheep to have a shepherd authority over him because he/she has Jesus the Shepherd and the Overseer of his/her soul. Don’t you know that Jesus made every believer a king and a priest? Any authority you mentioned as necessary is just an abuse.
Have you heard that when people preach the gospel they say, “You should accept Jesus as your Savior and LORD”? Jesus is the Lord. And if in a church there appear some other lords they are just deceitful abusers.
And can you find a difference between you and eg Ben and Joe as chapter directors? Haven’t you gone too far in your following Confucius that it is difficult to understand Jesus’ teaching about new life and Christian freedom?
It troubles me when Christians draw their understanding of authority primarily from the Old Testament. The OT laws and structures were just a shadow; the reality is found in Christ (Col 2:17).
Amen
Brian, Chris, I did not talk about me submitting to your authority but submitting to each other. It is my expression of mutual respect. By the way when my wife and I visited Ben and Christy, we brought Merlot. They had already salmon ready. It was perfect combination. It was the first time I really enjoyed wine. I am willing to try ginger beer with you. I have never tried or even seen it before.
It is difficult to enjoy wine without understanding even a little bit about the different varieties and how to properly taste it. In that respect, I guess it’s a bit like Christianity :)
Wesley, ginger beer has no alcohol. That is why I mix mine with Kraken…
Try Shiner Ruby Redbird. It’s a light summer beer brewed with grapefruit juice and ginger.
http://texasbeer.blogspot.com/2011/03/shiner-ruby-redbird.html
Wesley,
Sometimes I have some crooked thoughts and wish just a little bit of hierarchical leadership existed in Lehigh UBF. I am supposed to be the director. But I am actually close to being a janitor. If anything happens in the church, everybody assumes that Wesley will take care of the problem. The church back door breaks down quite frequently. Everybody assumes that Wesley will fix it
Last weekend our family visited Waterloo UBF, I saw great leadership amongst students and leaders. There was great respect, love and community. One student got up at the end of the service and announced a “Spring Cleaning” of the center. He did not display any hierarchical leadership nor any authoritarian style of leadership. What I saw was a leader who encouraged and motivated others to clean Gods house. He did not demand anything but asked for volunteers. He showed love and respect for everyone. He himself was going to be part of this project. That’s the difference.
You said: Predictably, one of them is acceptance of authority, which Koreans people find it easier than Americans do.
I would have to disagree on this. As an American, I and many others respect authority. We follow the laws, we obey our parents, our teachers, our pastors and we listen attentively and we process and learn from our mistakes. Many of us are professionals who love God and obey His authority in our lives and live accordingly.
Every nation(including Korea and US) has people who break the law or rebel against authority. Please do not confuse this with people calling out the abuses and injustices being done by people in authority. In this case Spiritual Authority.
Here is what I believe is different: In Toledo when our former Pastor was the director of Toledo UBF there were many meetings. One of the meetings was a Messenger meeting where most men leaders( both Korean and a few Americans) attended. When the Pastor would leave the country for buisness, many of the Korean missionaries would not attend the meetings but the few americans would still show up. Out of curiosity my husband asked one missionary why missionaries don’t attend when the pastor is not here, he said ” I guess missionaries are expected to attend when he is here” . Those americans who came to the meeting came out of their own convictions not out of obligation or fear of the person in leadership.
So would you want someone to be at your meeting or church out of obligation or fear? or would you want someone who wants to be there out of their own conviction before God?
I must add that the longer we were in ubf, many of us conformed and lost our own convictions. I also attended meetings out of obligation or expectations coming from our leaders . Which I now realize the unhealthiness of it all.
I say this as my reality and what I experienced, not trying to bash anyone.
Martha:
“Last weekend our family visited Waterloo UBF”
Awesome. I want to publicly point out that Penn State, Waterloo and Westloop are excluded everytime I speak against “ubf chapter directors”. That is my list of the 3 redeemed ubf chapters. I hope that list grows.
“One of the meetings was a Messenger meeting where most men leaders( both Korean and a few Americans) attended.”
Yes I attended that meeting out of a sense of duty. Duty to obey is why I did everything in ubf. The worst part of that meeting was the personal training a select few received after the meeting was over. If you were the “chosen one” you would have to stay up at the center all night or until 2:00 am or so “working” on the message which meant typing or sitting in silence while the director slept (by the way I will not call any director in ubf a “pastor”).
And I’m glad you brought this up. Koreans have a sense of obeying authority only if there is first loyalty. If there is no loyalty, there is no need to obey in the Korean mindset. So that partially explains why the Koreans didn’t usually show up if the Korean they were loyal to was not present.
But in my American mind, I believed that I should show up no matter who is leading or who was present. So American sense of obeying authority is actually more healthy and closer to Christ’s ideas– to obey for the sake of justice and not to be partial to favoritism.
This is something a Korean missionary to America MUST recognized: America, for all her flaws, is rooted in Christianity. Korea is not.
Joe, about your comment, “Wesley, are you saying that the message you preach is more important than the behavior you model? I think Jesus would disagree,” I am not talking about the message DL’s disciple preached to me but the fruit she(indirectly DL) bore in me, which I think is weightier evidence of God’s work than her(or DL’s) behavior that others try to judge.
About “It troubles me when Christians draw their understanding of authority primarily from the Old Testament. The OT laws and structures were just a shadow; the reality is found in Christ (Col 2:17)” I absolutely agree with you. I think it is very important. I am so glad that you made this comment. Jesus said when he was lifted up he would draw all men to himself. The source of his authority rests in his crucifixion. Only when our lives reflect the cross of Jesus do we have any spiritual authority.
Sorry if I sound stupid, but who is DL?
DL = Dr. Lee. SL = Samuel Lee.
Some people call me DB (Dr. Ben) or BT (Ben Toh) or DBT. :-)
For the record, Ben, when and where did SL get his doctorate? Did he do any coursework for it? Does the institution have any credible credentials?
I don’t remember where or when (?90s), but I believe it was for his commentary on Romans.
Ben, I remember that, sometime in the late 80’s or perhaps early 90’s, he received an earned doctorate (as opposed to an honorary one?) in hermeneutics from an institution that no one had ever heard of. The story that circulated was that, when the faculty read his Romans material, they were stunned at its quality and immediately granted him a doctorate and asked him to come and teach at their college (which he declined to do). Perhaps I heard that story from you!
I wonder if there is any independent verification of that. As you know, many of the stories in circulation about SL were originally told by him and then accepted by everyone as true.
I personally don’t give a hoot whether he had a real earned doctorate or not. If it was a mail-order deal (pay a few bucks, get a diploma) I don’t mind. But for our own sake, we do need to be as truthful and objective as possible about him and his achievements and the achievements of UBF. For so many years, I was told over and over that his lectures and Bible study materials were the best, that they were so awesome, and so on. It was a huge source of pride for us. But strangely, no one else in the world outside of UBF seemed to think so. There were no hordes of people out there clamoring to learn from us. And when I honestly thought that SL’s lectures weren’t so good, I quickly learned to keep those opinions to myself and say that they were wonderful as everyone else did. Gradually it dawned on me that this was a real-life manifestation of The Emperor’s New Clothes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes
Oops, I forgot that Koreans care so much about titles. Our federal changellors in Germany Merkel and Kohl had Dr. titles too, but the never were called “Dr. Merkel” or “Dr. Kohl”.
As far as I know, SL had even 2 Dr. titles, one “Litt. D” a “honorary” tile granted by his former college in Korea after he gave them a donation (from our offering moneys) and the second from “Bethany Bible college” in the US which is run by a Korean. The book book “Name It and Frame It” wrote about them: “… they show many signs of being a degree mill. Sources of faculty credentials are not listed, the chancellor and president appear to be father and son, and their degree requirements are far short of those at accredited institutions.” The dr. title that Samuel Lee and all UBF is so proud of is worth nothing except for blinding people for the obvious fact that Samuel Lee was illiteral in theology. By the way, his lectures also showed clearly that he was illiteral in history and that he had no rational and scientific mindset. Therefore I refuse to call him “Dr.”.
And yes, I was told the same story that people in some university were so amazed by his Roman bible study and his “invention” of the “inductive Bible study method” that they spontaneuously gave him a Ph.D. Reminds me of the stories told about Kim Jong Il like that he was the world’s best golfer.
To me, his emphasis of his “Ph.D. Litt.D.” only tells me that he was an impostor. He claimed to have both authority (from God) and recognition (from the scientific community) which in reality he both did not have.
Chris, thank you for providing these details. I also have qualms about giving SL the title “Dr.” because, although he did have a somewhat inquisitive mind, he was not a scholar in any serious way. Serious scholarship requires peer review and careful response to criticism of one’s work.
This morning I read an article by Roger Olson that describes the phenomenon pretty well. Olson wrote:
“Many years ago I was visiting some friends of my family. The husband’s grandfather was a spiritual mentor of many members of my own family. When he found out about my interest in theology as a scholarly pursuit and discipline he scoffed and pointed me to some books (booklets, really) written by his grandfather—a patriarch of our faith community. I had heard his grandfather’s name all my life—from my parents and relatives. So I sat down and began reading the books. The first one I opened argued that all the divisions of Christianity came about as a result of the Constantinian takeover of Christianity. Before Constantine, the author argued, Christians were united around the gospel and there were no major or serious divisions. They were all in one accord and of one mind and faith. Well, after reading just a few pages I knew the man had no knowledge of the history of Christianity and was not qualified to do theology. I silently put the books back on my new friend’s shelf and said nothing to him about it. I knew he would not be able to handle the truth about his grandfather.”
The full article is here:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2013/05/what-is-theology-and-who-does-it-part-3-final/
Dr. Joe (I know yours was earned, from Harvard no less), I think you should get comedy comment of the month award for “The Doctorate”:
..from an institution that no one had ever heard of…they were stunned at its quality and immediately granted him a doctorate…I personally don’t give a hoot…If it was a mail-order deal (pay a few bucks, get a diploma)..
suddenly even I have hope to obtain an honorary PhD:)))))
Proverbs 17:22
A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones.
I feel happily healed: that’s what we need, a “Good Humor” healing ministry
Thanks, Mike. I’m glad you could see humor in my comment.
After I got my degree, ubf members invariably began to call me “Dr.” I know that they meant it as a sign of respect. But to constantly include that title in my name was and is strange, because I never have and never want to define myself by my degree status.
My mother never attended college. She married shortly after high school and raised 13 children. One of the valuable life lessons that she taught me was to show respect to all people and judge them by their character regardless of their education or social status. Indeed, that is one of the characteristics of the kingdom of God — that all people are valued because God values them. That lesson has always stayed with me. I have a 20 year-old son with mental disabilities who will never even earn a high school diploma. It is challenging to build a relationship with him. It is not easy to value his contributions to my family and society and church. But value him I must, because God values him.
This is part of the reason why I think ubf needs to dispense with honorific titles ASAP. It is not a matter of eastern versus western values. It is a matter of gospel values. The church needs to go the extra mile to value everyone not for what they have accomplished but because of what Jesus has accomplished. The constant use of titles reinforces hierarchical thinking and role-playing that makes it nearly impossible to reveal who we are and to relate as friends and human beings.
In the summer of 2010, I delivered a conference message about the church based on Acts chapter 2. Here is part of what I said.
Are we willing to become part of a community where our standing and honor in that community is not determined by how old we are or how we look and dress, or where we went to school, or by our own human standards or rules or anything that we have accomplished, but only by what Jesus Christ has done for us? Are we willing to welcome anyone into our community and give them standing not based on what they have done but on what Jesus Christ has done for them? If the answer is yes, then I say to you: Welcome to the family. Welcome to the real church. Welcome to the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.
That message was not received very well.
Thanks for that comment, Joe.
James 2 comes to mind: Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
I think you can as well replace “wearing a gold ring” with “wearing a PhD title” in this passage.
By the way, James 2 also says But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
+1 @Brian: “America, for all her flaws, is rooted in Christianity. Korea is not.” Americans default to justice, righteousness, honesty, authenticity. Koreans default to loyalty, faithfulness, conformity, (outward) obedience.
When West Loop UBF began on Jan 4, 2008, I shared this with our fellow Christians:
1) The first rule of WL is that there are no rules.
2) Whoever comes to WL comes because they want to, and NOT because they have to.
3) Have fun serving God.
4) Do whatever you want!
5) When you want to do something at/for WL, you do not need to ask me for permission, approval or blessing. Just DO IT.
As far as I can tell, after 5+ years, we have not fallen off the cliff. This surely is nothing but the sheer grace of God.
+1 Ben.
I highly recommend reading about Roger Williams.
“With absolute faith in the Bible, with absolute faith in his own (puritan) interpretation of it, he nonetheless believed it “monstrous” to compel another person to believe what he or anyone else believed, or to compel conformity to his or anyone else’s beliefs. His enemies called him a firebrand. They feared the conflagration free thought might ignite. They lacked faith in the ‘Sword of God’s Word.” They feared being challenged, and having their world, under challenge, disintegrate. They feared chaos of freedom, and they feared the loneliness of it.
Williams embraced all that. Freedom, he believed, was worth it, worth his life and worth far more than his life…..he said, “Having bought Truth deare we must not sell it cheape, nor the least graine of it for the whole World, no not for the saving of Soules, though our owne most precious.” For he knew that to believe in freedom and liberty required faith in the freedom of thought, of conscience.”
Sorry if I sound like I’m slamming….just some food for thought. I do see parallels in the struggles that Williams had with the Massachusetts Puritans who abused authority. I think we all need to ask ourselves why we are afraid of freedom. I think it’s at the root of the confusion you speak of Wesley as much as anything else might be.
…and regarding “rebellion” against authority in modern times I think we have to look deeply at the causes. When the younger brother rebels against the Father, isn’t it at least in part because he isn’t drawn to the “slave mentality” of the older brother? I would say the moralistic or abusive older brother who might be in the form of parent, teacher, pastor bears a lot of responsibility.
Wesley, you wrote: “I am not talking about the message DL’s disciple preached to me but the fruit she(indirectly DL) bore in me, which I think is weightier evidence of God’s work than her(or DL’s) behavior that others try to judge.”
When the Spanish Conquistadors came to the western hemisphere, they “converted” native people to Christianity by force and violence. Some enduring Christian communities were established, and some natives came to genuine faith in Christ. But I would ascribe the fruit to the Spirit of God, not to those guys.
That is an extreme example. I’m not saying that SL = Conquistador. But my point is that God often works despite the actions of people, not because of them. God will often make good happen in the midst of bad actions. But bad actions should still be identified as bad. Otherwise you can justify nearly anything. And that is what we have done in ubf, again and again.
Joe, many talk about DL. If anyone thinks he knows him, I probably know him more. I had lunch with him almost every single day more than ten years. I sat with him every Sunday second worship service for the same period of time. When people judge him through secondary sources of information, I get so frustrated. I feel that my best friend is being slandered and humiliated.
Wesley, I am not judging merely based on secondary information. I heard and saw many things that he did firsthand. I experienced him too. On many occasions I saw him overstep the bounds of what a pastor ought to do. While he helped many people, he also hurt many people. I’m sorry if these discussions make you uncomfortable. But these discussions have to happen. And they will.
wesley, glad you enjoyed lunches funded by donors:)
—-
“…secondary sources of information…”
—-
Those are also called *witnesses*, and there are more than a few who have testified.
Sibboleth, witness hadn’t occurred to me, but you’re right. How easy it is for eyewitnesses/primary sources to be misunderstood as secondary sources.
Jesus’ Resurrection was testified by appearance witnesses, but Jews who didn’t feel like believing made up some cockamamie story that his body was stolen
Perhaps like Wesley, I am probably the most sympathetic and have the most favorable attitude toward DL compared to others on this blog, probably because I would see/meet him several times a week for over 20 years, sometimes even 7 days a week. He also attended my fellowship meeting at UIC every week almost without fail for 20 years. He was really quite a funny, perceptive, likeable, spirited, joyful man who connected with you in ways that few people could.
This is NOT in any way to defend, support, justify or rationalize any of his authoritarian abuses, boundary breaking, or lack of accountability, but to simply support perhaps what Wesley is trying to express.
To perhaps countless UBF loyalists, SL is like their own loving dad, whom they love and respect dearly, sometimes even more than their own dad, who might be aloof, disconnected, or simply AWOL. Few sons and daughters would “go after” their dad for his faults, especially after his death, but would rather think of him and remember him in the most favorable light, even if it is likely to be biased, unbalanced, and lacking in objectivity.
This is perhaps a most sensitive, delicate, difficult and uncomfortable area of navigation as we proceed.
Ben, I believe the vivid memory SL is the reason why UBF has been so slow to address the problems that have kept it from being healthy and fruitful.
I did not start out talking about SL. As you may recall, several years ago I began to urge ubf leaders to discuss why so many longtime ubf members were unhappy and ready to leave the ministry. Many of them did leave. The problems were never addressed, never even discussed. No one ever wanted to do any serious evaluation of ubf’s culture and methods. Gradually it dawned on me why they were so reluctant to discuss things that were so vital to the future of the ministry. It was because, even without mentioning SL’s name, anything unflattering that was ever said about ubf was instinctively taken as a criticism of him, and criticism of him was strictly forbidden. SL was the 500 pound gorilla in the room. Everyone felt his presence but no one would acknowledge it. The fear of talking honestly about the things he did was (and is) keeping ubf frozen in time.
And the refusal to talk honestly about SL has made it impossible to create a culture of ethics and accountability. When chapter directors treat their members in an abusive manner, it has proven very difficult to impose discipline on them in any real way, because many of the things that those chapter directors do are things that they learned by example from SL. How can we discipline people for wrongdoing while we continue to heap praise on the legacy of SL who did the same things?
I have no personal vendetta against SL. But like it or not, an honest evaluation of his legacy and practices are the linchpin to meaningful change and growth. The longer we refuse to talk about him in an honest fashion, the longer this organization will stagnate and decline.
And I realized the memory of SL makes it very difficult for ubf leaders to learn from other sources.
Ben, I remember someone telling you, “Why do you hurt us so much by talking about the things you learned from Rick Warren? Why don’t you talk about the things you learned from Samuel Lee?”
In a strange way, learning directly from non-ubf sources was considered to be showing disrespect to SL.
For many years, I could not learn from Christian books. On the rare occasions that I read them, I could not hear what the author was trying to say. Rather, I mostly scoured them for evidence to prove that ubf was in the right. My defensiveness about SL made it very difficult for me to grow in my faith. But when I dropped that defensive posture, everything changed. It was as though a whole universe of possibility suddenly opened up.
Joe, this needs to be highlighted: “On the rare occasions that I read them, I could not hear what the author was trying to say. Rather, I mostly scoured them for evidence to prove that ubf was in the right.”
That was exactly my experience. My conscience bothered me the whole 24 years in ubf. Instead of learning, I suppressed and denied reality, fabricating my own personal KOPHN narrative, leaving my “self” behind.
So in the old Voy forum discussions, my heart would race and my mind would nervously scour the forum for some shred of support and justification of my ubf ideology. I had seen the living Word of God and heard Him speaking through the bible, but I desperately searched high and low to find justification for my ubf lifestyle. That sparked my fearful and fervent “Tom Cruise” days of online defending of ubf.
In the end, I found that my defenses were a farce. I could no longer keep integrity between my fantasy image of my life and the reality all around me. The explosive forum discussions caused me to reconsider my ideology and drove me to godly sorrow.
Now I can calmly and peacefully express myself and share my honest reactions without fear.
Yes, Brian.
When I read “Emotionally Healthy Spirituality” by Peter Scazzero (which James Kim just reviewed) I was struck by the author’s description of the false religious self, the religious mask, that people wear to hide their true selves. I realized that my faith had become very superficial because I was not coming to God as the sinner that I was. Rather, I was trying to play the fantasy role that ubf gave me. Not only had my relationship with God had become superficial, but my relationships with essentially everyone else were superficial. I was wearing a very thick mask. Defensiveness about UBF was a huge part of that mask. It was only when I dropped my defensiveness and became more honest about what I had actually seen and experienced in ubf that my mask finally came off and I could begin to relate to God and others as the person I really am. I could experience the love of God as I never had before. And I could experience fellowship and friendship with people as I never had before.
1 John teaches that there is no fellowship without light. There are still many leaders who want to bury all these things about ubf and SL. Their refusal to come out into the light of open, honest admission about what really happened is stunting our fellowship in profound ways.
“It was only when I dropped my defensiveness and became more honest about what I had actually seen and experienced in ubf that my mask finally came off and I could begin to relate to God and others as the person I really am.”
Ditto. And I must say that was the single hardest thing I’ve ever done. It was so painful. I melted as I took of my mask and saw my self as I was, as in a mirror. It was truly like death, like a kernel of wheat falling to the ground, like dying to my self.
Thank God for people like Chris and the others who left who challenged my mask!!
btw, Chris: Your wife makes a good point about leaving the ubfriends discussions, but I am SO thankful for your input. You have been a faithful minister of Christ and His gospel to me and to many here. I hope you have the strength even after 10+ years of this stuff to speak!
feels like we took “The Love Boat” to “Fantasy Island” to be the “Survivor”
@Joe. UBF has become quite insular over 50 years that it is an anathema to seriously learn from non-UBF sources. Some have regarded any critique of UBF as a great sin against what God has established in UBF.
@Sharon. Sorry that I “cheat” by reading a review of “Roger Williams and the Creation of the American Soul”: http://www.christiancentury.org/reviews/2012-10/original-separationist
In Massachusetts Williams “opposed government-mandated church attendance and loyalty oaths because he believed that these practices improperly mixed church and state. Williams’s views were not helping him to make friends with his fellow Massachusetts ministers. By 1635, Winthrop, with support from the clergy, had successfully banned him from the colony. There were some in the Massachusetts leadership who wanted to execute him.”
“Anyone who reads Roger Williams and the Creation of the American Soul will need to come to grips with the fact that it is Williams, not Winthrop, who best represents the historical roots of the religious liberties that citizens of the United States enjoy today.”
It seems that throughout church history, what church leaders were most afraid of is FREEDOM, which is the most wonderful doctrine in the Bible. Yes, freedom can be abused. But trying to control people from abusing their freedom removes the unique distinctiveness of Christianity.
I believe that if UBF leaders begin to truly give freedom to all her members, UBF will become a far more loving, healthy, gracious church with freedom in Christ and freedom in the Spirit as the foundation of our church, rather than trying to enforce “UBF core values” on the next generation of UBFers.
Yes, it is freedom in Christ that distinguishes Christianity. Years ago, I witnessed the conversion of a Muslim woman from Iran. As a child, she wanted to love and worship God. On her first day at school she decided to wear perfume because she knew she was going to learn how to talk with God and wanted to present herself to him well. She was severely chastised. In Christ,she found one who loved her and accepted her worship. But shortly after her conversion, she had to leave our church. She said that the same spirit of oppression that she experienced in Islam began to plague her as she tried to live in fellowship with us. We need to hear her story!
I am similar to Ben and Wesley in that I knew SL for many years and have a generally favorable perspective towards him. Perhaps those of us who were considered loyal to him saw his best side.
However, for all of the good that I experienced, there were also elements that were uncomfortable at best. We need to prayerfully and humbly deal those issues, acknowledging and apologizing for any sins committed while binding the wounds of those adversely affected.
The most important matter is that our faith must rest in Christ alone based on the Bible. And our deepest gratitude is to God for his amazing grace to us in Jesus Christ. No loyalty to any human being even approaches that since all of us are sinners and in desperate need of his mercy.
I’m glad James and Wesley are commenting and posting here even though many who come to this site may not agree with them 100%. It makes for interesting and useful dialogue. It would be wonderful to hear from more of our Korean missionaries to continue to advance the discussion.
+1
+1
“I knew SL for many years and have a generally favorable perspective towards him.”
I only met SL 4 times, for a total of about 2 hours combined. One time I prayed with him in private for about 30 minutes, before I went to Russia. Another time he stopped by breakfast with SB and me and a few friends.
In those 4 hours, SL gave me numerous imperatives for my life. One was: “Marry a woman 1 inch taller than you so you will be a man of vision” (that came true and I have a vision :) So I too have a favorable opinion of SL as a person.
But in regard to his teaching that enslaved me I have utter disgust. When I was baptised by full immmersion in 2012 at our new Baptist church, the pastor told me just before I went under “You are free from the teachings of one man.” It was most liberating. So now I can remember the good memory of SL and also say that I don’t give a rat’s patookie (do rats have patookies?) about SL or his teaching in regard to how I live my life. I am no longer bound to such teaching.
“I’m glad James and Wesley are commenting and posting here even though many who come to this site may not agree with them 100%. It makes for interesting and useful dialogue. It would be wonderful to hear from more of our Korean missionaries to continue to advance the discussion.”
Ditto. Why in the world did I ever think Christ-following was about gathering around those who appeared to agree with me 100%? Out of 7 billion people only I agree with me, and that not 100% of the time :)
My wife told me about her only encounter with SL. It was at a conference when the obligatory picture was taken and she happened to stand next to him, and then he very rudely pushed her away because he wanted to have another girl stand next to him.
I never met SL personally, but saw him several times at conferences. I rmember his bad pronounciation in his “announcements” and stupid remarks like that the Germans lost the war because they thought too much instead of shooting (with which he wanted to imply that we should simply obey UBF and be busy without thinking). I also remember how I though that it sounded like he was mocking God when he was singing the Lord’s Prayer. (Even though at that time I did not yet know any negative things about SL.)
So people have mixed experiences with SL. To some he was friendly, to some he was rude, some he ignored completely, and some he offended and humilitated in extreme ways, even publicly. Sometimes he did all to the same person at different times. So, if he was friendly to you, or seemed to tell spiritual things or do good things at times, what does it matter?
What do you say about these things?
* He preached from the pulpit that people who do not obey his commands will suffer a bad fate, get ill or even die a horrible death. I can quote suche passages from his sermons again, if you don’t believe. They even have been published by UBF in the 1990s.
* He refused to be held accountable even when severe allegations were brought forward against him in 1976 and 2000. His answer to the reformers concerning accountability was “God will punish me if I did anything wrong.”
These are behaviors which are typical for cult leaders, and they are not diminished by whatever personal account you have with Samuel Lee. Please address these problems instead of telling us that you “knew SL better than we do”. We heared this stupid defense so many times. To me it sounds like if Eva Braun defended Hitler by pointing out the sweet and nice things he told to her and how friendly he was when they were alone.
And I remember how SL said to the Russian delegation after a ISBC that Stalin was a good shepherd for Russian people. He said that Russian people dearly loved Stalin and readily gave their lives for Stalin defending Stalingrad. It was a moment of cognitive dissonance for me. Stalin was very anti-christian and literally killed thousands of Christians especially baptists. Jesus is the good shepherd not Stalin, not Stalin-like ubf missionaries.
Vitaly, I am not surprised. I remember SL referring to Ho Chi Minh as a positive example of how to inspire people.
“The most important matter is that our faith must rest in Christ alone based on the Bible. And our deepest gratitude is to God for his amazing grace to us in Jesus Christ. No loyalty to any human being even approaches that since all of us are sinners and in desperate need of his mercy.” Amen. Hallelujah!
@aw “Perhaps those of us who were considered loyal to him saw his best side.” On occasion, I also saw the other side, which terrified me and everyone else in UBF who knew him. For decades, I deduced from this that fearing a senior mature servant of God should be “normal” for every godly Christian, in that it equates to me fearing God.
Today, however, I believe that according to the Bible I should fear God only and fear nothing else and no one else (Prov 29:25; Lk 12:4-5; Ac 4:19).
Thank you Ben, you understood the situation most correctly. You said, “To perhaps countless UBF loyalists, SL is like their own loving dad, whom they love and respect dearly, sometimes even more than their own dad, who might be aloof, disconnected, or simply AWOL. Few sons and daughters would “go after” their dad for his faults, especially after his death, but would rather think of him and remember him in the most favorable light, even if it is likely to be biased, unbalanced, and lacking in objectivity.”
UBF is like a close knit family. Everybody knows everybody even after it grew to be a big international organization. SL was like a father figure, dearly loved and respected by many of his children especially by most of loyal Koreans in UBF both in America and Korea. In fact many people met Jesus very personally through his labor of love and prayer. I also agree with Alan that he made some mistakes and crossed boundaries. It is fair to say that he is good and bad and ugly like everybody else.
Recently we elders met a former missionary in Chicago and heard a painful story of SL’s mistreatment toward him. We sincerely apologized him on SL’s behalf and even invited him to give us a lecture in the process of healing and reconciliation. It is our hope and prayer that we may continue to do this kind of work of reconciliation one at a time in God honoring way. Through these processes of healing, apologizing, reconciliation, I believe God will be honored among us.
One of the reasons why many older Korean missionaries are silent was because the huge differences between the East and the West.
EAST says WEST says
Be contemplative // Be diligent
Accept what is // Seek change
Freedom of silence // Freedom of speech
Meditation is important // Articulation is important
Marry first then love // Love first then marry
Love is silent // Love is vocal
Focus on other’s feelings // Focus on self and needs
Cherish wisdom of years // Cherish vitality of young
Search inside of yourself // Search outside yourself
For truth: meditation and ethics // For truth: Data and analysis
The truth is given, it does not have to be proved // The truth needs to be proven by all costs.
James:
“Everybody knows everybody even after it grew to be a big international organization.”
This is misleading. In ubf, everybody knows about everybody. This is something MarkY and I discussed in our 3 hour coffee shop visit a year or so ago. We knew each other’s names. We knew each other’s faces. And we knew the ubf stats: chapter, rank, length of service. But did we know each other as brother in Christ? No! We admitted that we knew nothing of substance about each other.
It is the same with many others. I became much better friends with MarkO/MarthaO during and after leaving. I have a real friendship with JoeS/SharonS/BenT/ChristyT after leaving. Friendship and fellowship in ubf is much more shallow than even beer buddy fellowship. This is the reality all ubers know. Would we be kind and flattering toward each other? Yes. But were we friends?
I love being away from ubf! I got to meet ATK in person and have dinner with him and rebuke his message! I got to spend several hours with you James, the president of ubf! I get to speak freely and be myself and rebuke and repent!
“EAST says WEST says”
While that video gives some insight, it is a shallow representation of both sides. Both are far richer and deeper and more complex. I am a human being, and I fall into East sometimes and West sometimes; we all do. I am sick of the shallow ubf judgments of entire nationalities! Let’s be real and just be ourselves, whatever that may look like!
east says west says… ))
The Bible says, “And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many”.
Why does East say these things to West through ubf missionaries, James?
In the Russian version of Pinocchio, Pinocchio (when spiders were trying to teach him obedience) says something like this, “Spiders! you better teach your own little spiders!”
It sounds well, “Поучайте лучше ваших паучат!”
I am late to this discussion. But, does it really matter what the East or the West says? But to me, what Jesus says really matters and adherence will affect my eternity. And this is what Jesus says:
MT 23:8 “But you are not to be called `Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. [9] And do not call anyone on earth `father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. [10] Nor are you to be called `teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ. [11] The greatest among you will be your servant. [12] For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
I think, against the revealed will of Jesus, when we make a fellow Christian our “father” or “mother”, this leads to serious problems such as spiritual abuses. The role of a father or mother in the life of a Christian is reserved for God and no one should take that place, so that the child of God listens to and follows his/her Father in heaven.
I am surprised by how UBF directors try to become “father” to their members by deciding everything on behalf of those they are suppose to help hear the heavenly Father’s voice for their life decisions. They also get upset if someone tries to hear and follow God’s leading apart from the usual director’s channel. It upsets me when some people are even decorated with title such as “Father” and “Mother” in UBF. By giving them such positions, don’t we also inherit their spiritual DNAs?
i guess it’s in the human nature to over-elevate selves, but brothers & sisters all are we: big bro Jesus intercedes with the Father & Spirit helps/guides
AbNial, I have never felt comfortable calling Samuel Lee my spiritual father. The fact is that I was a Christian long before I met him, and I will remain a Christian no matter what becomes of my relationship to UBF.
In November 2010, I attended a meeting of the North American senior staff. There was no open discussion at this event. But near the end, each of us present was allowed to make some brief remarks. I thought about my remarks very carefully and wrote them down. This is what I said, which I still stand by today. (Except that now I would think twice before calling him “Dr.”)
When people talk about the spiritual heritage of UBF, I hear them using terms like fishing, one-to-one Bible study, manger ministry, soldier spirit, self-support, marriage by faith, etc. These are essentially the principles and methods developed by Dr. Lee. Many feel attached to Dr. Lee. He was an influential figure in our lives. But he was not the only Christian who influenced me.
Reflecting on my life, I found five people who deeply influenced me. First, my mother, who raised me and my twelve siblings by faith in God alone. Second, a Catholic priest who befriended me and prayed for me during my freshman year at MIT; it was through his influence that I read a Christian book and committed my life to Christ. Third, Sarah Barry, from whom I learned to respect and interact with Scripture. Fourth, John Armstrong, whose writings deeply challenged my sectarianism and opened my mind and heart to interact with the Body of Christ beyond UBF. Fifth, my wife, who has taught me countless things that other people could not; through her I am experiencing the love of God in new and wonderful ways.
Please forgive me, but I cannot identify Dr. Lee as my spiritual father, nor can I identify myself as the fruit of UBF. I have drawn much spiritual nourishment from UBF, but I would not be the person I am today without those other influences. This is why I will never see myself as simply a UBF man, and why I cannot get excited about dedicating my entire life to promoting UBF-specific values. To do so would be to deny my true roots and heritage.
I am not alone in this. America was a Christian nation long before UBF missionaries arrived, and a “typical” North American person in UBF will have significant spiritual influences in his or her life outside of UBF. To strongly press the principles of UBF upon us is to divide us from ourselves and from one another.
Our common spiritual history didn’t begin with Samuel Lee and Sarah Barry in 1961. It began with the apostles on the day of Pentecost. Our true inheritance is not methods or principles, but the gospel of Jesus Christ. To identify anything else as our inheritance, however good those things may be, produces spiritual confusion. God is jealous, and he does not like it when we steal glory away from his Son and place it on something else. Jesus alone is the gospel; Jesus plus something else is not.
I believe that if UBF’s leaders are able to clarify our spiritual heritage as Jesus Christ alone, God will be pleased, and many of our members will be deeply comforted.
UBF always downplays any non-UBF spiritual roots. We hear little about the work of Sarah Barry and the Presbyterian church who reached out to Koreans, but much about Samuel Lee. I remember a life testimony that “my sheep” wrote for a UBF conference. He was a medical student and wrote about how much he admired and learned from the nun-nurses in the hospital where he made an internship. My chapter director let him share his testimony in front of him before he was allowed to share it in front of the group. Then he told him to discard several passages in his testimony, including that passage about the nun-nurses. The chapter director wanted to give all glory and credit to UBF. Some years later several “rebel sheep” left our chapter, including “my” sheep which made me very sad. When I visited him and spoke with him about why he left, he told me that a pastor had warned them about spiritual abuse and manipulation in UBF, and he gave me that and several other concrete examples. I couldn’t object because I knew what he said was true.
Joe, I agree with you on the personal and country history level. ubf tried to position itself in Russia as if God had never been to Russia before 1990 when ubf missionaries at last came to us. I can see some problems of the Orthodox Church in Russia but they are of a different (not as big as in ubf) level. Orthodox priests also lost much of people’s trust like ubf leaders, but they don’t abuse. In Russian “good shepherd” is the same with “kind shepherd”. And Orthodox priests act really kindly. And I personally was influenced by an Orthodox priest long before ubf. He baptized me. He didn’t say much but he proclaimed to me, “God has forgiven your sins”. It was so liberating, a fountain of the Holy Spirit in the soul! It was a sunny day. I went home looking to the sky and thanking God. When I mentioned this and other facts of non-ubf influence the director always told me “to take them out of the sogam”. Yes, I was even given new names in ubf to lose my own identity as a human and as a Christian.
Last year I visited a museum devoted to the Russian history before the communist revolution. The last Russian tsar was killed along with his family in my home city. Communists also tried to remake Russian history. I learnt a lot in the museum about the tsar. And you know I would submit and obey him as the authority from God and I would fight for him and for my country. He was a very good tsar and in a sense a good shepherd for the people.