I’m Christian, especially if you’re gay

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Not too long ago, I read a blog post entitled “I’m Christian, but not if you’re gay”. I write today’s post in response to the hatred and unBiblical ideas I’ve been reading since US President Obama made his remarks. Here is my explanation of my beliefs in regard to gay rights, as a straight, evangelical-leaning, conservative-leaning Christian.

I don’t consider myself “active” in the gay rights movement. I have been considering this issue only recently, which started after President Obama’s speech where he mentioned he supports same-sex marriages (a month or so ago).

Grace-first Theology

It is amazingly simple for me to be consistent with a grace-first theology. At the same time, I find that most people don’t understand me. Part of my grace-first theology is in agreement with the Catholic Church, some with Calvinists, and some with Baptists. But I’ve not found any systematic theology or church doctrine that completely describes what the Spirit has been teaching me. But I find that I now understand almost all Scripture and that the Bible has a consistent message. And I find much that I agree with in Spurgeon.

I’m not in agreement with either of these statements: “Homosexual practice is not a sin” and “Homosexual practice is a sin.” Neither blanket statement captures my viewpoint. The basis of my understanding begins with accepting the fact that same-sex attraction is an orientation that cannot normally be changed. And the foundation of my beliefs in this area are in the gospel of Jesus.

Orientation is not a choice

Even gay help groups like Exodus International freely admit that they’ve not met any gay person who chose to be gay. A person simply cannot choose their sexual orientation. The fallout from “ex-gays” is proof enough for me. Perhaps God does change a person’s orientation, but this will be miraculous and rare. This is a fundamental misunderstanding most conservatives have. They think that they can “pray the gay out” or “beat the gay out”. Or as a last resort, some think we should just let the gays die out.

I have a child-hood friend who is gay. We all could sense it since he was young. He went through gay therapy, but nothing worked. There are choices of lifestyle, but I cannot overlook the fact that there does exist a homosexual orientation that cannot be changed. There does not appear to be any “gay gene” but there is something psychological that cannot be changed normally.

What does the Bible say?

We who claim to believe the Bible must consider what Scripture says. I find only a handful of verses, six in fact, that explicitly deal with the gay issue. These are the infamous “six clobber passages” in the Bible:

Genesis 19:1-5 – We normally think Sodom=homosexual sin. But what does the Bible say the sins of Sodom were? The main sin of Sodom was arrogance, gluttony and failing to help the poor and needy. And the Bible says that Israel’s sins were twice as bad as Sodom (Jeremiah 23:14; Ezekiel 16:49-52). The sexual sin in Genesis 19 was homosexual gang rape, not strictly homosexual practice.

Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13 – These passages list all homosexual activity as a sin worthy of death. But it is part of the written code that was nailed to the cross (Ephesians 2, Galatians 2, Colossians 2). I believe the Scripture plainly teaches that all 613 commands of the written code were abolished on the cross. This is an apparent contradiction: Jesus says he did not abolish the law, Apostle Pauls says Jesus did abolish the law. There is no contradiction when we understand grace however. Jesus and Apostle Paul are both correct. Jesus fulfilled the Law, so he is correct when he says he did not come to abolish God’s Law and Prophets. God’s Law did not, nor will it ever, just disappear.  However, the impartial expression of God’s Law, the written code, has been canceled, as Apostle Paul clearly taught. If someone wants to enforce Leviticus 18:22, then they must also put adulterers to death and they must also consider eating shrimp a sin. The Bible clearly teaches (and Jews correctly understood) that ALL 613 laws must be kept if one wants to be justified under the law. The written code was only a temporary foreshadow of the grace who was to come, Jesus. So I say under the law (the written code), yes, homosexual behavior is a sin. But nowhere in the written code do we find that homosexual orientation is a sin. Those who accept Jesus find grace, not the laws in Leviticus.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 – The NIV translates the Greek word that Paul made up as “homosexual offenders”. The word is not the word Apostle Paul would have used if he was condemning all homosexual behavior. These verses do condemn offensive homosexual behavior, which would be behavior that is outside a committed, marriage relationship. I believe homosexuals should marry, just as heterosexuals should marry in order to avoid burning in sin. Sex inside marriage, regardless of orientation, is not sin. Promiscuity and all sexual behavior outside marriage is sin, regardless of orientation. So grace is not a license for heterosexuals to freely engage in homosexual experimentation. Nor is the opposite permitted. An interesting side note: How many of the sins listed in 6:9-10 were committed by King David? He was a murderer and an adulterer up until he died. And some have claimed David and Jonathan’s relationship was more than “just friends”. Yet David will be in Heaven (Hebrews 11:32-40). Moses was also a murderer (Exodus 2:11-14), yet Moses will be in Heaven. Elijah was a coward, but he will be in Heaven too (Matthew 17:3). Why? It is because of the grace of God, the only way anyone will be in Heaven. To twist 6:9-10 and say that all homosexuals will go to hell is simply incorrect.

Romans 1:21-31 – The key sin here is idolatry. Idolatry is what gets God really, really angry, even more-so than sexual sin. God gave idolaters over to all kinds of sin, which included the promiscuous homosexual behavior. Again, I do not see a loving, committed same-sex marriage included here.

Jude 1:6-7 – In Jude, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah gave themselves over to “sexual immorality and perversion.” Genesis 19 is an example of such behavior. And they are not condemned to hell because of immorality, they simply serve as an example. Their key sin was arrogance and selfishness, and such sins were punished. It is only idolatry, going our own way (Deuteronomy 29), that condemns us to hell, whether we lived in the OT or the NT times.

Historical, orthodox views?

My viewpoints above may seem out of place with historical, orthodox Christianity. However, the “historical, orthodox” view toward the GLBT community seems to have started after the inquisition period, around 1200 or 1300. And full-blown hatred for gays has been a rather recent historical phenomenon. For many centuries, Christians didn’t seem to have such a problem with sexuality as Christians do today. I think also, after Freud, Christians became obsessed with homosexuality and sexuality in general. So I feel like I am in line with early Christians who understood grace-first instead of law-first theology.

In the end, the GLBT “issue” is mainly a human rights issue for me. Regardless of sexual orientation, are Christians supposed to preach hate and death? Some preachers in North Carolina, and elsewhere in America, have made a mockery of the pulpit.

How to live?

Regardless of anyone’s viewpoints on the GLBT community, homosexuals need to decide how to live. For me, I see the following. For the “GL” people, there are two viable options I see: celibacy or marriage. I believe these are the same two options for “H” people (heterosexual).

The “B” people are in a dangerous place from Scripture’s viewpoint. Perhaps they should be extended grace until they figure out who they are. The “T” people need extra love and discernment.

Get past it!

In conclusion, I suggest we get past the HGLBT issue (as Scripture does) by putting proper avenues for control and separation of church/state in place, making gay marriage legal, granting equal rights to the GLBT community and moving on to share the gospel of grace.

Has Freud deceived the entire Western world into thinking HGLBT is our primary identity? Could not two men embrace each other as friends without ridicule? Could not a man and a woman be dear friends without suspicion?

More reading that explains my viewpoints:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/health/dr-robert-l-spitzer-noted-psychiatrist-apologizes-for-study-on-gay-cure.html?_r=2&smid=fb-share

http://paradigmshift-jmac.blogspot.com/2012/05/lesbians-gays-and-kingdom-of-god.html

http://biblethumpingliberal.com/paul-abolishes-the-law/

http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/05/14/glbt-evangelism/

http://www.priestlynation.com/archives/1071

 

36 thoughts on “I’m Christian, especially if you’re gay”

  2. I think what Freud discovered later in his life, and how he modified his views on homosexuality, is the reality many Christians need to understand. His 1935 letter says plainly that there is an orientation that normally cannot be changed:

    “I gather from your letter that your son is a homosexual. I am most impressed by the fact that you do not mention this term yourself in your information about him. May I question you why you avoid it? Homosexuality is assuredly no advantage, but it is nothing to be ashamed of, no vice, no degradation; it cannot be classified as an illness; we consider it to be a variation of the sexual function, produced by a certain arrest of sexual development. Many highly respectable individuals of ancient and modern times have been homosexuals, several of the greatest men among them. (Plato, Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, etc). It is a great injustice to persecute homosexuality as a crime –and a cruelty, too. If you do not believe me, read the books of Havelock Ellis.

    By asking me if I can help [your son], you mean, I suppose, if I can abolish homosexuality and make normal heterosexuality take its place. The answer is, in a general way we cannot promise to achieve it. In a certain number of cases we succeed in developing the blighted germs of heterosexual tendencies, which are present in every homosexual; in the majority of cases it is no more possible. It is a question of the quality and the age of the individual. The result of treatment cannot be predicted.

    What analysis can do for your son runs in a different line. If he is unhappy, neurotic, torn by conflicts, inhibited in his social life, analysis may bring him harmony, peace of mind, full efficiency, whether he remains homosexual or gets changed.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud%27s_views_on_homosexuality

  3. I rebuke this applauding of sin. You reference Freud, who believed God was an illusion and was a man trapped in the iniquity of narcotic addiction later in his life, which added up may have led to his suicide. Barack Obama is a definite suspect as an elected image of Global finance and multiculturalism, the typical worldly lying politician at best and an abortion extremist. What was the last count? 46 million murdered. We’ve surpassed the Nazi’s and are nearing the Communists, stay tuned. Homosexuality is a sin. Typing rationally, consider its acts cannot even be performed without that which has been sexually perverted by man, much of which are products that come from factories. Homosexuality, and not slang gay (which defines happiness), takes the seed of a man meant for procreation and the pleasure given by God and uses it for carnal sexual desire. That is the reality. If proven one is born homosexual, it would then be proven to be a genetic disorder, for the body was not made this way by God, according to Scripture and self examination. It may also be a disease of lust. The Bible clearly speaks against this countless times, including Moses who stated that laying with another man is detestable (NIV).

    • Eric, homosexuality is one of thousands of topics not fully addressed in Scripture. I would ask, do you eat shrimp or wear clothes made of two clothes? Do you support killing disobedient children? If not, why not?

      The Law, as expressed in the Old Testament, was given to a specific people in order to create a specific culture for the purpose of foreshadowing Jesus (not for the purpose of creating a permanent Old Testament culture).

      And as far as the Bible addressing homosexuality “countless” times… I count only 6 passages.

    • Leviticus 18:22 “‘Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman.; that is detestable.
      1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
      In Deuteronomy, Moses even said don’t wear your mothers clothes and daughters wear your Fathers.
      Genesis 2:20-25

    • Eric, you’ve correctly mentioned 2 of the 6 (by the way I mentioned all 6 above in my article). Maybe instead of just quoting you could answer my question? Or explain yourself more?

      Are you proposing that we start enforcing Leviticus and Deuteronomy? If so, you might want to rethink your position because of verses like Deuteronomy 21:18-21.

  4. I just answered your question on how Biblical concerning the matter is. It states quite clearly. And yes I do believe we should make defined into law that marriage is between a man and woman and that this will not be allowed by any other interpretation and that we adhere to that Law. Homosexuality is of lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). If we look the other way, are we still then a Christ founded Nation? We are not a nation in Christ at this time, but hypothetically. We surely do not follow God’s word if we condone lawlessness (Luke 12:49-53). What about the family and the sacred bond between a mother and father and their children in God and the lessons of God they are responsible for bestowing upon their children? The Church defined marriage and in God it became. Homosexuals and their make-believe politico (communists, atheists, fools and heathens) fight this. Should the Church now deny Scripture and marry homosexuals? If that were to become, the Church would have no foundation and collapse and the government groupies could live in their Utopia, that could possibly involve them digging their mass graves after they are inevitably ‘passed by’ and then dare to defy.

    • Eric, I mean, could you answer my question above: “I would ask, do you eat shrimp or wear clothes made of two clothes? Do you support killing disobedient children? If not, why not?”

      In regard to churches, I think churches should be allowed to make their own decision. If they don’t want to marry gays, so be it. My main point is churches should not condemn gays to hell just because of being gay.

      And I further think that the state (government) should allow same-sex marriage as a means to counter promiscuity. Many countries, including Canada, already allow this.

    • “I would ask, do you eat shrimp or wear clothes made of two clothes? Do you support killing disobedient children? If not, why not?”
      I don’t understand, or know what the first part of the question asks, but when I am around disobedient children, I usually walk away, especially when they make a lot of noise. Only God condemns homosexuals to hell and that is after their death. I cannot bend Scripture, nor do I want to. I am satisfied with God’s word and how incredible it works in my life. Scripture does not change, because I have my own desires, belief, or ideal. I believe these are God’s commands and that I must humble myself to them, for He is All Knowing and All Mighty and it is not unreasonable for me to accept that it is His way we are to seek, especially after all He gives me in everyday of my life I live in Him. If it says in Scripture that homosexuality is as in sin as Adultery, is it reasonable for me to expect that a Church ought to defy its Commandments on Adultery under God and that if they do not allow my lifestyle it is Just under God for me to open a Church that exempts my adulterous practice and spares me financially from divorce? An argument that could be made, is now that women are more openly allowed to Minister in a Church, why not homosexuals marry? If a woman speaks in a Church it is on behalf that she was not allowed to speak, or Minister in Church and this defied the Hierarchy and a woman’s place in consideration to a man’s and where God’s authority rested. However, this goes into the hierarchy between a man and a woman. This can be comparable to there not being stoning today of homosexuals, in that it is a change in the times and what is acceptable in God. If a homosexual is married it still remains an unnatural act and in its essence defines sex between the same gender moral, though not genetically fee-sable, defining now God made us to be only pleasure seeking in our nature and the ability to conceive a child and the bearing of a child to a mother and father completely irrelevant (excluding sin of adultery and pre-marital sex and the becoming of a widow) and the act of sexual intercourse only to serve our sexual gratification and that all love does not vary. Therefore, if I am a tree-huger and decide one day it is acceptable for sexual relations between I and that tree to be law, I can approach the Church and demand they allow this as marriage, or just the same if robots become able to give humans sexual gratification (which is radical challenge to God in what the purpose and meaning of being able to procreate is, for it is written we are to grow in Him and be fruitful and this is why Jesus said we will not know of marriage in His Father’s Kingdom making its purpose here more clear). If the part fits and the machine works, and its God’s will, I don’t have much to question. I believe one reason that God may have made the creation of a child pleasurable, or when Jesus allowed consummation of sexual relations between a man and woman in their marriage, was entirely to give an incentive for making children among men and women, for God loves children and the more, the merrier-er. The Bible consistently defines the importance of family lineage the Apostles call for celibacy is not an anti-baby policy.

    • Eric, I take it you are not married?

      You said: “I believe one reason that God may have made the creation of a child pleasurable, or when Jesus allowed consummation of sexual relations between a man and woman in their marriage, was entirely to give an incentive for making children among men and women, for God loves children and the more, the merrier-er.”

      Sex is far more than just for procreation. If you don’t believe that, go ahead and tell your future wife that she is just a baby-machine. Let me know how that goes for you… That’s just about as bad as telling your wife (as UBF people do), “Honey, you are my cross to bear…”

  5. Hi, Brian! I believe that mutual Christian dialogue can help to come to the right understanding of God’s truth. I read your article some time ago but didn’t want to discuss first and didn’t want to put my opinion into English for it takes time. I am in agreement with the statement that “Homosexual practice is a sin”. Why?

    You say that “same-sex attraction is an orientation that cannot normally be changed”. I believe that it can be changed by the Christ supernaturally. Normally no sinner can be changed and become a new creation, a child of God. You admit this, saying “Perhaps God does change a person’s orientation, but this will be miraculous and rare”. Though it can be rare, I believe that every Christian can experience this miracle in his life.

    I understand you for you write about your friend and you love him as a Christian. Still may be it is a mistake to conclude that the orientation can not be changed based on the therapy results. Jesus promises that he gives a new birth to those who call his name and cleanse them with the Holy Spirit.

    You write about the 6 Bible passages on the topic. I can’t agree with your interpretation. As Francis Chan says, “after I read the Bible” passages “20 times” I can’t see that the main idea is that homosexual behavior is not a sin and that gays are welcomed into God’s kingdom. Homosexuality is a sin and in Romans Paul means that it is even unnatural sin which comes from leaving God and from idolatry. It is even God’s curse and judgment upon sinners. So if we see that homosexuality is a sin, then everything in the passages comes to its place. People of Sodom were sinners; God condemns not just offenders but gays; h-sin is among those sins that can be forgiven in Jesus and freed of; David and Jonathan were just friends; the h-sin is “sexual immorality and perversion”; etc.

    “Again, I do not see a loving, committed same-sex marriage included here”. This sounds very strange for me. Again I think that mistake comes from “The basis of my understanding begins with accepting the fact that same-sex attraction is an orientation that cannot normally be changed”. You see somehow there are many gays in such places as the US and Europe. Why is it so? I suppose it is because of wealth and over nutritious food and beer and “special” immoral atmosphere and laziness, etc. There is almost no such problem in many other places. In Russia the problem takes place almost only in Moscow and among wealthy and immoral people. I don’t think that a man can be born with such a problem and psychological view. I admit that the problem can appear in a very young age, but then the root is usually can be found in the family of the child.

    “Unfortunately, in many places, gay people are still sentenced to life in prison or killed”. This is of course not right and not normal. In the society there should be freedom for such people. It is for them to decide how to live. And Christians can only attract such people to Jesus and God’ kingdom and God’s view on the family. May be the state should allow such people to “marry”. Still I would not allow under the state law for gay people to act publicly and to have children in their “families”, private schools, any freedom that can influence other people, especially children. They may live as they want to, and God will justly judge them in his time, but let them not influence the society for their influence is immoral. So if a gay acts publicly, advertise his immorality or can’t keep quiet toward other people and especially children let him be put to prison or killed, etc.

    • Thanks for replying and expressing your thoughts Vitaly!

      So then, there remain 3 options for a person to satisfy their God-given sexual nature:

      1. Celibacy
      2. Marriage
      3. Promiscuity

      #1 is perhaps best, but only for a few. I think we should not dismiss this so much as we do though in today’s culture. I think it is a fine option.

      #3 is wrong for everyone. No case can be made for a Christian to be freely promiscuous. And I think even secular moralists would agree.

      So that leaves us with #2 as the typical, viable solution/path for everyone. If we look at 1 Corinthians chapter 7 (and not get hung up on chapter 6), we see Apostle Paul’s logic, which is God’s wisdom.

      It is really amazing how Christians can get caught up in male vs female issues. Galatians 3:28 says plainly that there is no male or female in Christ: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

    • Vitaly, I might be persuaded to accept most of your words. But I cannot accept this: “So if a gay acts publicly, advertise his immorality or can’t keep quiet toward other people and especially children let him be put to prison or killed, etc.”

      Where does that attitude come from? I wholeheartedly disagree. GLBT is not the problem; promiscuity, Christian hatred and condemnation are the problems.

  6. Brian,
    Your new found spiritual enlightenment of homosexuals saddens me. I agree with Eric. I am in agreement with everything he had to say on homosexuals. . We have also discussed this on facebbok so I don’t see the point in continuing our discussion. It saddens me that you have left one wrong religious view, UBF, and replaced it with something even worse. I believe the Holy Spirit must be grieved that you are taking such a demoralizing stand on the sin of homosexuality. While I believe every sin can be forgiven, they are not willing to recognize they are living in sin, and yes, if they don’t confess this as sin they will be doomed to an eternity in hell just as anyone else will who is sinning and not repentant.

    You say you believe they have no control over their orientation. I believe that is a lie from satan. There is not any proof any where that homosexuality is not simply a choice. It is just one more perverted sin from satan.

    Have you read the article, “HUMAN ORIENTATION” ( THE BIOLOGIC THEORIES REAPPRAISED) by WILLIAM BYNE, MD, PHD AND BRUCE PARSONS, MD, PHD.
    I have been extremely sad that I felt I had to unfriend you on facebook. You have been a wonderful friend. I had to make a choice, however. That choice was I couldn’t continue to read your unhealthy, misguided views on homosexuality.

    • Hi Mary, I have a lot of respect for people who speak their mind and are decisive. You are certainly free to think as you want.

      I would hope that you consider some further comments:

      1. I have not read “Human orientation”. But I have read this public apology by Dr. Spitzer to the gay community. There is overwhelming evidence, even by Exodus International and also by Freud, that there is a same-sex orientation that won’t change throughout such a person’s entire life.

      2. You mentioned: “While I believe every sin can be forgiven, they are not willing to recognize they are living in sin, and yes, if they don’t confess this as sin they will be doomed to an eternity in hell just as anyone else will who is sinning and not repentant.” This is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

      3. I will continue to pray for you and your husband’s medical situation, and especially that God will send a gay person into your lives in a meaningful way.

  7. I have 2 cousins who are homosexual. Again I will not us the word “gay” they are anything but gay. i also have a long time friend who is homosexual. While I love them they know how I feel. I have entertained them in my home many times. i will not waver on God’s word. I pray for them every day that God will open their eyes to the perverted way they are living. I would be doing them an injustice to tell them they are ok in the eyes of the Lord. I’m not sure what gospel you are believing now but it certainly is not the gospel of our Lord and Savior. You are really headed down a danger road of rational.

    I too pray for your mom. I am so thankful God healed her and is restoring her to good health. I am also thankful for the friendship of your grandma. She is a wonderful woman of God. You are blessed.

  8. Hi, Brian! I would appreciate respect and support and friendship of such a woman of God as Mary Spratt. Her comments have always been very spiritual and very sincere and christian. I agree with Mary that your article on the “gay” topic and your opinion on the topic are out of place. You are very wise but your ground on the topic is very weak and, I agree, is not christian. I don’t know what to suggest… Maybe you could keep your opinion between God and you for a time and think and pray. I believe that the Holy Spirit can speak his truth through faithful brothers and sisters. I just can’t believe that Mary, for example, is not a christian. So His Spirit speaks to us through her, and I sincerely agree with her words and can’t agree with yours, and I think that I am also a christian. Maybe you could at least admit and imagine that you can be not right. Can the same Spirit say that you are right and we are right? I don’t thik so. At first I even thought that you prostituted your sincere faith and were bribed by UBF to raise out of place topics. You are “a scribe for the Lord”, you raised some banner and many people are watching you and your site. After such articles many in UBF can say, “See, all who left UBF are acting and speaking in a not christian way, let’s keep our true christian UBF tradition of spiritual order and training!”. Thanks to you some people could have felt as a team, among them Mary Spratt. I wouldn’t wish such good christian people leave the team, especially because of some strange and out of place topics. (I wouldn’t wish you would leave the team). I don’t know whether I could answer such a comment like this, still I am writing it publicly for your article is also public. I mean I don’t ask for an answer, I just try to sincerely express my thoughts and say that I strongly disagree with you on this topic.

    • Vitaly, I have no doubt that MaryS is a Christian, and that you are also a Christian. I expect we will see each other in Heaven, along with numerous people from the GLBT community.

      So I believe MaryS does understand the gospel. However, her sentences that I pointed out are not a Scriptural articulation of that gospel.

      In regard to the “team” I want to make it very clear that while I will freely criticize UBF when prompted and engage in contra-UBF activities, I will not participate in collusion against UBF. I will not return to UBF nor will I support “team ex-UBF”, but I will gladly engage in dialogue with just about anyone.

      If you think my views are wrong, please point out specifically what you think is wrong and why. So far, neither you nor MaryS nor anyone I have dialogued with has given me any reason to doubt my viewpoints. If you give me a good argument, I will gladly change my viewpoints.

      I will gladly stand before Jesus my Lord on judgement day with a limited understanding of the great Christian doctrines. But I will not appear before Him with the hatred, fear and condemning attitudes I have heard expressed by Christians against the GLBT community.

  9. “What then, in short, he proves to us is this, — that the ingratitude of men to God is incapable of being excused; for it is manifest, by unequivocal evidences, that the wrath of God rages against them: they would have never rolled themselves in lusts so filthy, after the manner of beasts, had not the majesty of God been provoked and incensed against them. Since, then, the worst abominations abounded everywhere, he concludes that there existed among them evidences of divine vengeance. Now, as this never rages without reason, or unjustly, but ever keeps within the limits of what is right, he intimates that it hence appears that perdition, not less certain than just, impended over all”.
    “By connecting the desires or lusts of man’s heart with uncleanness, he indirectly intimates what sort of progeny our heart generates, when left to itself. The expression, among themselves, is not without its force; for it significantly expresses how deep and indelible are the marks of infamy imprinted on our bodies”.
    “God therefore gave them up, etc. After having introduced as it were an intervening clause, he returns to what he had before stated respecting the judgment of God: and he brings, as the first example, the dreadful crime of unnatural lust; and it hence appears that they not only abandoned themselves to beastly lusts, but became degraded beyond the beasts, since they reversed the whole order of nature”.
    “So then we must consider, that Paul here records those abominations which had been common in all ages, and were at that time especially prevalent everywhere; for it is marvelous how common then was that filthiness which even brute beasts abhor; and some of these vices were even popular”.
    It is from Calvin on Romans 1. I agree that Paul writes about God’s wrath upon people who “Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
    24 Wherefore God also gave them up to UNCLEANNESS THROUGH THE LUSTS OF THEIR OWN HEARTS, TO DISHONOUR THEIR OWN BODIES BETWEEN THEMSELVES”. And “For this cause God gave them up unto VILE affections: FOR EVEN their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another”.

  10. “And these PLAINLY SHOW that men have dishonoured God by the most absurd idolatries and superstitions; and have degraded themselves by THE VILEST AFFECTIONS AND MOST ABOMINABLE DEEDS”. (From M.Henry on Romans 1)

  11. GOD BLESS YOU VITALY. I AGREE WITH YOUR LAST BLOG. I HAVE ABSOLUTE LOVE FOR HOMOSEXUALS. THAT IS WHY I AM SO DETERMINED TO PREACH AND TEACH THE SIN OF HOMOSEXUALITY. IT IS A PERVERSION AND AN ABOMINATION TO OUR LORD. WHAT THEY PRACTICE IS UNNATURAL AND WRONG. BRIAN CAN TRY AND RATIONALIZE HIS THOUGHTS UNTIL JESUS COMES, BUT IT WILL NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN JUST AS MURDER, ADULTERY, ETC. IS A SIN. IF GOD DID NOT INTEND GENDER DIFFERENCES HE WOULD HAVE MADE US ALL THE SAME. HE MADE US IN HIS IMAGE. HE MADE MALE AND FEMALE AND HE MADE THE PARTS PERFECT TO JOIN AS ONE. ‘I AM SORRY BUT THE PARTS HOMOSEXUALS JOIN ARE WRONG AND PERVERTED. GOD’S WORD SAYS IT IS AN ABOMINATION TO HIM. GOD ALSO SAYS IN HIS WORD THAT IN THE LAST DAYS PEOPLE ARE GOING TO TURN FROM TRUTH AND HOLY LIVING. THE WORD SAYS WE WILL BE COME LOVERS OF SELF, MONEY AND UNGODLY LIVING. I DON’T NEED PHYCOLOGIST WITH THEIR HIGH SO CALLED SECULAR EDUCATION TO CONVINCE ME OF RIGHT AND WRONG. I HAVE GOD’S WORD AND HIS HOLY SPIRIT TO BE MY TEACHER AND HELPER. I AM NOT A SCHOLAR, I HAVE ONLY A HIGH SCHOOL EDUCATION BUT I HAVE GOD TO LEAD ME AND GUIDE ME IN HIS TRUTH. I WILL NEVER WAVER ON THIS SUBJECT. I WOULD BE DOING MY SWEET HOMOSEXUAL COUSINS A GREAT INJUSTICE IF I DID NOT STAND FIRM ON THIS BIBLICAL TRUTH.. I DON’T WANT HOMOSEXUALS TO BE DECEIVED INTO BELIEVING THEY CAN CONTINUE IN THIS LIFE STYLE AND ONE DAY STAND BEFORE A HOLY AND JUST GOD AND NOT BE CONDEMNED TO HELL. I AM NOT A HOMOSEXUAL HATER, BASHER, GET OUT OF MY FACE PERSON. I AM A SINNER SAVED BY GOD’S GRACE, FILLED WITH HIS PRECIOUS HOLY SPIRIT, AND FULL OF GOD’S LOVE. I WANT TO BE THAT PERSON WHO IS NOT AFRAID TO SPEAK OUT IN LOVE AND TRUTH TO ALL PEOPLE. I WANT THEM TO KNOW THE FULLNESS OF GOD’S PRECIOUS GRACE AND REDEEMING LOVE. I AM AN OLD TIME PENTECOSTAL, TONGUE SPEAKING CHRISTIAN, WHO LOVES THE LORD WITH ALL MY HEART, SOUL AND MIND. I DON’T HAVE TO FIGURE THIS OUT ON MY OWN. I HAVE GOD AND HIS WORD TO BE MY GUIDE. I DON’T NEED ANY OTHER AVENUE. HE IS ALL I NEED.

  12. Hi Mary, Vitaly. I continue to be intrigued by your thinking on this matter. Perhaps you would help me understand your position?

    Do some or all of these statements correctly summarize what you are saying?

    1. Homosexuality is always a sin.
    2. Homosexuality is the one sin that God won’t forgive, as in Matthew 12:32.
    3. 100% of homosexuals will be in hell if they don’t repent of being homosexual.
    4. To repent of being homosexual means become heterosexual.
    5. Marriage is defined only as one man and one woman.
    6. Same-sex marriage is forbidden because homosexuality is always a sin and marriage must have the purpose of procreation.

    I am not making any point here, just trying to articulate what you are saying. Please confirm or correct or add to these statements so that I can understand your position.

  13. Brian, I will answer to the best of my ability.

    1. Yes, homosexuality is always a sin. I always follow God’s word and everything I see both in old and new testament attests to this. 1Timothy This chapter talks about all sin not just homosexuals but they are included in sin. I won’t quote this Brian I know you have read this scripture.

    2. No Brian, I don’t know where you get that I said God won’t forgive the sin of homosexuality. He forgives all sin except the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

    3. Unfortunately yes 100% will go to hell if they do NOT confess their sin of homosexuality. Here again God forgives all sin. He also wants us to then strive to live in His light and truth. Now is where it becomes impossible for me to know completely what is in the heart of a homosexual. If he has ask forgiveness and is TRYING with all he has to refrain from that life style, but sometimes stumbles, that is between him and God. Only God knows what is in a mans heart. Brian, we all sin everyday. We each one of us have our own struggles in the sin area. We cannot be perfect. i believe here is where we must die to Christ every day. I know when I have not pleased God and I repent. God does not have something against people who STRUGGLE with homosexuality. We each one struggle with something. All God asks is that we keep struggling- especially because Jesus died to set us free from our sin struggles. whatever that sin is. i do not believe He made homosexuals, it is a choice, just as someone who is a murder murders by choice not because God made Him that way. Again the scripture ” are we to continue in sin so that grace abounds more,” Of course not that is ridiculous.

    4. To repent of being a homosexual means to leave that life style, plain and simple. Again it is a choice not how God made them.

    5. Of course marriage is between a man and a woman. Everything on marriage in the bible points to that. From Genesis through Revelation. Do you see anything else in God’s word. Brian quite trying to analyze this from outside sources or listening to homosexuals views. May I ask you to spend time in prayer asking God to reveal truth in this. Quit listening to other voices. Take time to truly listen to the Holy Spirit. i don’t see how you can come to any other conclusion if you are truly listening to God’s reasoning. Search the bible, not phycologists for the truth. You will always find the correct answer through God and only God. Listen to His voice.

    6. Again, marriage is between a man and a women. Yes, God did create us to replenish the earth. I don’t believe that is the soul purpose of a union between a man and a woman. God said He created Eve to be a helpmate to Adam. God made man and woman to fit together both in the physical and emotional. Marriage should be a holy means of celebrating love, producing children, and experiencing pleasure with each other. When reading the Song of Solomen do you read anything about same sex unions? Listen to what God’s word says. Quite trying to read other avenues in God’s word.

    Again Brian, I am a very simple, not very educated old woman. But this I know without a doubt. I read God’s word every day and I ask the Holy Spirit to speak to me in spirit and in truth. I will never go wrong if I do that. I wouldn’t trade all of the education in the world for the sweet knowledge that I get from God’s word and the peace I have from listening to the Holy Spirit.

    I do not hate the homosexuals. I don’t wish them any harm. They are welcome in my heart and in my home. I know they struggle but I also know there is hope if they truly turn to God and ask Him to open their eyes and minds to understand the wondrous truth awaiting them.

    • Thanks Mary. Now we are getting somewhere. I am starting to understand your thinking now. I’ll reply with my thoughts later this weekend.

    • I would expect, then, you would agree with all of the following modified statements?

      1. Homosexuality is always a sin.
      2. Homosexuality is forgiveable.
      3. 100% of homosexuals will be in hell if they don’t repent of being homosexual.
      4. To repent of being homosexual means to leave the homosexual lifestyle they chose.
      5. Marriage is defined only as one man and one woman.
      6. Same-sex marriage is forbidden because homosexuality is always a sin.

  15. I’m wondering, then, if you can see the contradiction between #2 and #3? I am very much against a gospel that declares we must repent of sins before receiving grace, which is what #3 tells me. I am also very much against any gospel that says we have to change ourselves first or get right living of some sort before we can have hope in salvation, which is what #4 tells me.

    Would you use the same logic if the sin were something else, such as greed or pride?

  16. Brian what are you talking about? God’s grace and forgiveness of sin goes hand in hand. God’s grace is God’s unmerited favor when we confess our sins. You can’t have one without the other. He didn’t die on the cross and then say you don’t have to confess your sins to Him. He died on the cross to save us of our sins. However if we don’t acknowledge that we are sinners how can we receive His grace????

    I did not say we have to change first to receive God’s grace or forgiveness. Again I said we have to acknowledge our sin, any sin, not just homosexuals. I used them as an example because that is the particular sin we have been addressing in our dialogue. I said we have to acknowledge we are sinners. I John 3:6 says “No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known Him.” Hebrews 10: 26 ” If we deliberately keep on sinning AFTER we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgement and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.” You did not read carefully nu. 3. I said after we have confessed our sin we still STRUGGLE with our sins, again I didn’t just single homosexuals out. I said we all struggle with something. Of course, unless God miraculously changes our hearts, we will STRUGGLE with our sin. PLEASE REREAD NU. 3. I did not say we have to give up the sin FIRST before God’s grace, forgiveness happens. That is a ridiculous statement. I don’t know where you got that from what I said. Yes, of course this applies to ALL our sins, pride, greed, adultery, lying, etc. You are trying to pigeon hole me into speaking only about homosexuals. I am not. I am simply classing them into every other sin. Again, Brian, I said God looks on the heart of man. I believe they must STRIVE to leave that sin, just as I must strive to leave the sins that so easily beset me. Only God knows if we are sincere in our relationship with Him. I believe if we are sincere in our relationship with God, we will want to do what is right and good and we will strive to the live that way. God’s word says that not everyone that says Lord Lord will enter into heaven. God knows if we are sincere in wanting to live for Him. While He accepts us right where we are when we come to Him, He expects us to stop what we are doing and turn to Him to help us live as pure a life as we can. he expects us to eventual;y stop drinking the milk of His word and eat the meat of His word. That is why it is a process. We receive Him into our hearts, then we read His word, pray, seek His will in our lives. Die to self daily, that means, every day we seek to know Him better. We commune with Him and He communes with us. We ask Him to reveal Himself to us. If we are listening to Him, He will be our guide, our conscious. Works will not get you into heaven, but loving God, seeking His will for your life and listening to His still small voice will get you to heaven. If you love Him, you will want to live for Him the very best that you can. I love Him, I commune with Him every day. He says, my sheep know my voice and they want to obey Him.
    Please don’t turn what I said around to say I expect them to change before God will forgive them. What I said and will continue to say is homosexuals, like every other sinner, has to acknowledge they are sinners then God accepts them right where they are.

  17. Mary,

    You asked two questions, so I will reply with my answers.

    “what are you talking about?”

    I am talking about the gospel. I am talking about entering into God’s rest. As you start to correctly point out, the Bible teaches that anyone who has even a speck of sin will not enter into God’s rest, neither now nor in the future kingdom in Heaven. What good news did Jesus bring then? The good news is grace. To repent means only to change our mind to accept this good news. The best word to describe the gospel I have found is “nothing”. We have joy and hope only when we believe that there is nothing we can do to remove this sin from us. On the day you and I die, we will both be steeped in sin. Our only hope is Jesus.

    The good news does not end there however. We who believe this grace find the Spirit living inside us. His sanctification work will continue in varying degrees until we die, but will never be made perfect in this life. Our sins require us to die. But if we die believing in Jesus’ name, we are heirs of the promise of a new, eternal life.

    “if we don’t acknowledge that we are sinners how can we receive His grace?”

    To me, it seems, you are talking about the “chicken and the egg” issue found in Christianity. Did grace invoke our faith? Or did our faith receive grace? It is of no consequence to me: both are true and both grace and faith work together.

    The verses you quote are about evidence we can see in someone who has such faith and has the Spirit in them. You words sound very much like the cycle of fear that UBF preaches, and which I’ve left behind forever.

    In regard to point #3, I am talking about this: A gay person (yes gay is the correct term as in LGBT) finds the grace of God and is born again. After this, there is no more sacrifice needed. Only grace applies, even if that person remains gay his whole life. In my research, I find that this will be true almost always.

    In the end, I believe “to repent” means only “accept that we can do nothing”. Only then do we find that the Spirit is willing to give us power over sin and hope of victory over death. Our only obedience, now that we are in Christ, is to remain in this rest.

    If we attempt to remove all “intentional sin”, we are no better off than the people we would consider the worst of sinners. And even if we remove all intentional and unintentional sin, we are still no better off because the curse of God remains on us unless we have entered into God’s rest.

    And if we could remove all sin, ignore God’s curse, we are still left with the ultimate human problem: we are broken. We are all humans with the five-fold problem of sin, curse, law, death and brokenness.

    The only good news is that Jesus offers us rest: rest from our struggle with sin, rest from the accusations of Satan, rest from the condemning words of others, and rest from our self-pity. For this, I will gladly die for.

  18. So you are saying because of God’s grace we can continue to live a life of sin. Don’t buy that or believe that. You really have an idealistic view of living for Christ. Accept His wonderful grace and keep on sinning cause he died for those sins and He doesn’t expect anything from us in return. In other words if a murderer says I accept Jesus grace and then he keeps on murdering he will go to heaven. No of course we will always, always always have sin in our lives, we cannot be perfect but I will go to my grave knowing that because I love my Jesus I will do all that I can humanly do to please Him in word and deed. And by the way, I will never give homosexuals the word “gay”. It does not fit them in any way shape or form. Again I have 2 cousins who are homosexuals and they are anything but “gay”, which means, happy exited, merry, having or inducing high spirits. For the most part they are sad, bitter, and confrontational about their life style.
    I still go with the verse of scripture in Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord”, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but He who does the will of my Father in heaven. This is the truth!! ” God accepts you where you are no matter what, is a big lie from satan.
    If you repent of something, it means you are sorry and you turn from that sin. It does not mean you won’t keep struggling or sinning but it does mean you admit that you need God’s help in living for Him. Grace does not give you a license to continue to sin. Again so you keep sinning so grace can abound more?????

    There is no biblical proof of a God who accepts anyone for “who he is.” God is not interested in our self-esteem or our filthy rags. Examine the evidence and judge for yourself. We know that God is a holy God who hates sin ( the 10 commandments of Exodus 20:1-17, Proverbs 6:16, Zechariah 8:17, Malachi 2:16.) We also know. We also know that God extends His mercy to repentant sinners ( 2Chronicals 7:14, Ezekiel 18:18:21-22, Jeremiah 18:8, 2 Peter 3:9). To be accepted by God, we must come through Jesus Christ (John 14:6) Jesus did not accept a sinner’s sin. He preached repentance from sin to everyone, not just to the pharisees.

    Romans 8:29 implies that we do not remain as we are. God is undertaking the amazing process of conforming us to the image of Christ. This is definite movement away from worldliness and towards holiness. 1 Corinthians 6: 9, 10 and the entire book of 1 John also make it clear that we cannot remain in our sinful practices and still hope to gain acceptance of God. On the contrary, 1 Peter 2: 11 warns us to abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul.
    The New Testament clearly teaches that a genuine conversion produces a changed- and changing – life. The metamorphosis begins on the inside with a NEW HEART and a NEW SPIRIT. and as we feed on God’s Word and offer our very lives to Him rather than to the world, our minds are renewed in such away that we are being transformed into the same image- the image of Christ. (Romans 8:29 and 2 Corinthians 3:18. ” Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind” is the command from Romans 12:2. This means do not fashion yourself according to the pattern of the currant age.
    Brian, I respect your views, you have a right to believe what you want to believe but I will not ever agree with your way of interpreting the word of God. I believe you have left one wrong fellowship, UBF, and have taken on something that is just as scary and wrong.
    I will continue to believe God wants all of us. He also wants us to follow Him in spirit and in truth. Homosexuals and everyone else who doesn’t know the Lord can come to Him and He will receive them as his own. I still do not believe that a murderer, homosexual, lier, thief, etc, etc, can say yes to Jesus and then continue in their sin and go to heaven. If they continue doing what they have been doing they are not truly sorry for their sin. IF, INDEED, THEY ARE, IN THEIR HEART SERVING GOD TO THE BEST THAT THEY CAN AND LOVING GOD WITH ALL OF THEIR HEART, SOUL AND MIND, THEN OF COURSE THEY WILL GO TO HEAVEN, even if they sin again. The key here is what is in their heart of hearts. The sincerity of their faith. I would not even try to be God and say if, at that point they will go to heaven, only God knows the heart of man. Jesus says if we CONFESS our sin, He is faithful to forgive us of our sin and CLEANSE us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. God is a just and Holy God. Just remember one day this wonderful day of grace will be over. On that day God will be a God of wrath and judgement. I want to be ready to hear my God and Savior say well done thou good and faithful servant. I also don’t want to hear some of these people cry out and ask me why I didn’t warn them that even through God’s grace, there is a heaven to gain and a hell to shun. If I over react with them, at least I have warned them. I have searched my heart and loved them enough to let them know they cannot receive that grace without a repentant heart. Grace and repentance go hand in hand. If the homosexual does not acknowledge their life style is, AN ABOMINATION to a Holy God, then I believe they will not go to heaven. I will continue to love them enough to tell them this truth. Jess paid for our sins with His life, but He did not tell us we can keep on sinning till He returns. That must grieve the Father that we would take that action on the cross so lightly as to think we can just keep on sinning. Jesus died for us, then He sent His precious Holy Spirit to help guide us and to comfort us. He gave us His Holy Word that we might grow in Him and love Him. If we love Him we will want to do good things for him.. It grieves me every day when I sin. I love Him enough that I want to do my best, be my best and serve Him and walk with Him as closely as I can. You are wrong, if you don’t think God wants our very best. He gave us His very best. The least I can do for Him is to give to Him my very best.
    Oh Brian, I love Him so. He is my blessed redeemer, my friend, my comfort and my shield. I am thankful that He loved me so much that He died for my sins. I love the song, “What can wash away my sin, nothing but the blood of Jesus. What can make me whole again, nothing but the blood of Jesus. I am nothing without Him. In the end, each one of us will be accountable to God. Each one of us will stand at the judgement seat and each one of us personally will either hear the words, “well done thou good and faithful servant or depart from me, I know you not. Everyone must make the decision to live for Christ or not to live for Christ. He will be the judge.

    • “So you are saying because of God’s grace we can continue to live a life of sin?”

      >>> No, I am not saying that. Grace is not a license for immorallity (Jude 1:4).

      “Accept His wonderful grace and keep on sinning cause he died for those sins and He doesn’t expect anything from us in return.”

      >>> This is not my point either. Christ expects us to love in return, and to deny ourself and to take up our cross. Christ expects us to rest in His grace. If we don’t, then there is no sacrifice left. What else can God do if we don’t accept His grace?

      “In other words if a murderer says I accept Jesus grace and then he keeps on murdering he will go to heaven.”

      >>> This is not how to approach morality, but I will say that such a situation is not outside God’s grace. I think it is not helpful to try and play God, deciding who goes to Heaven and who doesn’t. That is for God alone to decide. This is one of the key issues here for me: Who are we to make up situations and ascribe God’s condemnation or blessing upon them?

      “No of course we will always, always always have sin in our lives, we cannot be perfect but I will go to my grave knowing that because I love my Jesus I will do all that I can humanly do to please Him in word and deed.”

      >>> It sounds like your own desire is your basis for assurance? I am confused by this.

      “And by the way, I will never give homosexuals the word “gay”. It does not fit them in any way shape or form. Again I have 2 cousins who are homosexuals and they are anything but “gay”, which means, happy exited, merry, having or inducing high spirits. For the most part they are sad, bitter, and confrontational about their life style.”

      >>> I really doubt that the entire LGBT community is so sad and bitter. And their happiness is not the issue here.

      “I still go with the verse of scripture in Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord”, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but He who does the will of my Father in heaven. This is the truth!! ” God accepts you where you are no matter what, is a big lie from satan.”

      >>> You are tiring me out with your insistance of “truth”. I am trying to learn and build my thinking, but I cannot do so with such machine-gun style quoting of “truth”.

      “If you repent of something, it means you are sorry and you turn from that sin. It does not mean you won’t keep struggling or sinning but it does mean you admit that you need God’s help in living for Him. Grace does not give you a license to continue to sin. Again so you keep sinning so grace can abound more?????”

      >>> No, we do not keep sinning so grace can abound. That is not my position. Grace is also not a crutch, which we lean on only when we can’t quite live up to some standard. My main point is that repentance has FAR more to do with turning toward God than it does turning away from sin. When we emphasize turning away from sin, we do not see God, who alone has power to pull us away from sinful desires and give us holy desires.

      “There is no biblical proof of a God who accepts anyone for “who he is.” God is not interested in our self-esteem or our filthy rags. Examine the evidence and judge for yourself. We know that God is a holy God who hates sin ( the 10 commandments of Exodus 20:1-17, Proverbs 6:16, Zechariah 8:17, Malachi 2:16.) ”

      >>> I believe that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. God is holy, yes. But God can and does live in sinners hearts.

      “We also know that God extends His mercy to repentant sinners ( 2Chronicals 7:14, Ezekiel 18:18:21-22, Jeremiah 18:8, 2 Peter 3:9). To be accepted by God, we must come through Jesus Christ (John 14:6) Jesus did not accept a sinner’s sin. He preached repentance from sin to everyone, not just to the pharisees.”

      >>> Where did Jesus say “repent from sin”? Always I read simply “repent”. The key issue here is sanctification. How are we sanctified? Is it primarily our work of changing ourselves? Or is it primarily God’s work in our heart? I believe in “inside to outside transformation by the Holy Spirit”. The outside to inside repenting from sin is a form of moralism that Jesus dismantled.

      “Romans 8:29 implies that we do not remain as we are. God is undertaking the amazing process of conforming us to the image of Christ. This is definite movement away from worldliness and towards holiness.”

      >>> Agreed.

      “1 Corinthians 6: 9, 10 and the entire book of 1 John also make it clear that we cannot remain in our sinful practices and still hope to gain acceptance of God. On the contrary, 1 Peter 2: 11 warns us to abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul.”

      >>> Agreed. The question for me, is how? How does this happen? Is it up to us to do this by our shaping up ourselves?

      “The New Testament clearly teaches that a genuine conversion produces a changed- and changing – life. The metamorphosis begins on the inside with a NEW HEART and a NEW SPIRIT. and as we feed on God’s Word and offer our very lives to Him rather than to the world, our minds are renewed in such away that we are being transformed into the same image- the image of Christ. (Romans 8:29 and 2 Corinthians 3:18. ” Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind” is the command from Romans 12:2. This means do not fashion yourself according to the pattern of the currant age.”

      >>> Agreed.

      “Just remember one day this wonderful day of grace will be over. On that day God will be a God of wrath and judgement.”

      >>> Disagreed. God’s grace will not run out. And if God is not a God of grace on Judgment Day, we are all in trouble. We who accept God’s grace have a living hope! Furthermore, I believe the Bible teaches about two kinds of judgment. Yes you are correct, there is a judgment that will separate “sheep” from “goats” based on accepting grace or not, and has nothing to do with being homosexual or with anything we’ve done. But our “quaility of life” judgment does have to do with what we have done, and will begin with the house of God. This judgment is not tied to condemnation, but to reward in Heaven. I see quite a few Christians will be least in the kingdom of Heaven, as Jesus said. I don’t know exactly what the difference between the “least” and the “greatest” will be, but I have an intense desire to follow Jesus’ direction on how to gain a great reward in Heaven by being taking the “low road” in this life.

      “I want to be ready to hear my God and Savior say well done thou good and faithful servant. I also don’t want to hear some of these people cry out and ask me why I didn’t warn them that even through God’s grace, there is a heaven to gain and a hell to shun. If I over react with them, at least I have warned them. I have searched my heart and loved them enough to let them know they cannot receive that grace without a repentant heart.”

      >>> Where do you find that God will ask us on Judgment Day, “How well did you warn other people about their sin? How well did you convict other people that they are sinners going to hell unless they repent?” Won’t Jesus ask us: “When did you visit me?”

      “Grace and repentance go hand in hand. If the homosexual does not acknowledge their life style is, AN ABOMINATION to a Holy God, then I believe they will not go to heaven. I will continue to love them enough to tell them this truth. Jess paid for our sins with His life, but He did not tell us we can keep on sinning till He returns. That must grieve the Father that we would take that action on the cross so lightly as to think we can just keep on sinning.”

      >>> I believe Jesus died on the cross for all my sins, past present and future. This gift is waiting for “whosever” would accept it. To repent is to rest in the grace of God. Never can such grace be earned by our “repentance”; but only accepted. Such acceptance will generate holy desire and kindle reformation in our souls, sparking a loathing of sin and a desire for God. I have peace knowing that Jesus bought all my future sins already. So now I can live boldly and far more purely than when I lived in a fearful hamster wheel of sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent. Now it is just grace which leads to holiness. Only such grace will restrain sinful desires.

  19. Brian I have enjoyed this dialog with you. I agree with some of what you are saying and disagree with some.. I understand where you are coming from when you say sin/repent/sin/repent. I don’t live my life like that either. I do however feel sad when I fail my Lord. I don’t feel condemnation. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I don’t believe because I have sin in my life that I am going to hell. I don’t believe that I can do any amount of works and get into heaven. I agree that it is because of God’s grace I can be assured I will have a place in heaven. When I talk about God’s judgement, I too know there will be two judgements. One for the people who have not ask God for forgiveness and one for christians who will be judged for what we have done for Christ. I do not know exactly what that means either. I still believe when He returns the first time and is a God of wrath and judgement that the time of grace will end for those who have NOT accepted that grace. They will not have the opportunity to receive salvation at that time. I guess the bottom line is only God knows the true heart of a man and if he is truly sincere in his acceptance of God’s grace. Again the bible is clear that not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter into heaven. I am open to everything God has for me. I do not pretend to be a bible scholar. I read , study His Word, I pray for God’s wisdom in my thoughts and in my life. I do not make it a point to judge people on personal levels. Ultimately it is between them and God. However, there are some things that I see in God’s word that does not change. We each one can read God’s classification of sin, good and evil. What we do with that will determine our right standing with Him if we have not ask for forgiveness. There are somethings that you can probably do that I can’t. For instance, I have seen where you like a drink now and then. I cannot, in my conscious do that because of the destruction I have seen in my own family with alcohol. If I would do it I would call it sinning. I realize for you it would not be sinning. I agree that grace is free and unconditional. Because of God’s grace, I chose, because I love Him to restrain from my sinful desires. I am not sure exactly what God is going to say to christians on judgement day. I do believe, we will wish we had done more for Him on that day.
    We did start this discussion about homosexuals and if they can continue to live in that life style and go to heaven. My mind has not changed on that position. If they do not admit that homosexuality is a sin and an abomination to God, I do not believe they will see heaven. If they confess their sin, accept God’s grace and turn from their wicked way they will be saved. I believe they ask for forgiveness first and then ask God to help them refrain from that life style. God knows their heart. If it is a true acceptance of God’s grace they will do whatever they must to restrain sinful desires. I believe in God’s eyes there is only marriage between a man and a woman. There is absolutely nothing in God’s word that even remotely says anything else about man and woman. The other makes no sense at all. The sexual part of it is sick and perverted. I don’t see how anyone can look at it any other way. I also still believe aids is a result of that sexual perversion. For every example you can give for it not being I can show you statistics that prove there are more homosexual males contracting the disease than heterosexual. It is a fact. Plan and simple. Did God cause it? I honestly don’t know, but I do know He has allowed it.

    • Thanks Mary. My purpose in any dialogues these days is not to change your belief or opinion, but to learn.

      I learned that I need to consider God’s message in 1 John, and incorporate that truth into my thinking. The John letters have much to offer, but like James, they have a lot of truth compacted into a small space.

      Especially I need to give more thought to things like the confession of sin (1 John 1), what it means to “do what is right” (1 John 3), and sin that does not lead to death (1 John 5).

      Blessings.